Ultramarines after the January 2022 Balance Dataslate

[Captain Idaho]

Although I don't think Ultramarines are best suited to it, with Chronus we can take a pure armoured list now. Wonder how effective a list full of Dreads, tanks and a super heavy would be?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is something that doesn’t interest me.

[NKirkham24]

I'm playing my first game with the new points tonight.

 

Taking an updated version of my most recent list to see how we do, i've dropped two units of Intercessors and gained Aggressors, Eradicators, and added bodies to Bladeguard and Infiltrators.  

 

List is as follows:

 

Guilliman

Tigurius - MoH, NZ, PF

Primaris Techmarine - MotF

 

Infiltrators - 6 incl helix adept. 

 

2x Redemptors - one HOGC, one Macro Plasma.

Judiciar - Armour Indomitus & Rites of War

Bladeguard - 6 - Neo-volkite pistol

Aggressors - 3 - bolters

 

Eradicators - 3

Kratos - Volkite all over and the Battlecannon

Vindicator Laser Destroyer

 

I'm playing my pals Red Corsairs tonight, which is also a 1st for him, so i'll report back how I get on. 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by NKirkham24

[Captain Idaho]

Please do let us know!

 

I like the combination of a Vindicator Laser Destroyer and Kratos as well. Both T8 and both have a solid weapon load out, so rather than a single super heavy that costs similar with comparable weapons systems that can be a single target, you have 2 vehicles.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[NKirkham24]

Yes, you can smokescreen one of them if needed, hide the other.

 

Guilliman gives them reroll 1s to hit, and the Techmarine can buff one to hit on 2s. I also find Martial Precision really useful for the single big shot on the battlecannon for the Kratos, even if it's degraded your landing a S14 -5 AP hit 

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah reduces the variables. Hitting on a 3+ is hardly guaranteed and you might want to give the Techmarine bonus to the Vindicator for another target.

[NKirkham24]

Just back from the game, my pal ended up bringing his Death Guard instead of Red Corsairs. In a way, this made for an easier game as DG are not in as good a position, however he does have much more experience with them. 

 

His list, to the best of my memory, was as follows:

 

Typhus

Lord of Contagion

Daemon Prince

 

2x 10 Poxwalkers

2x 5 Blightlords

1x 3 Deathshroud

2x Helbrute

Tallyman

 

2x Bloat Drones, 

3x Myphtics

 

He took assassinate, Spread the sickness & Engage. I took Oath of Moment, Shock Tactics & March for Macragge. 

 

We played Secure Missing Artefacts, not my favourite mission, I think the progressive is poor tbh, and we both ended up maxing our primary because of it. 

 

I ended up with the win 97-79. 

 

My secondaries were really strong this game, I maxed Oath & Shock Tactic, the main fight was on the central objective - I manage to get a Redemptor to charge 1st turn which took it for me, he then got obsec onto so recovered it, allowing my Bladeguard to get it again next turn etc. 

 

March, I did my home objective 1st turn, and then got 2 in no-mans land in the 2nd turn, getting me to 12.  I only took his home objective in turn 5 (to max shock tactics) after using the redeploy with my Infiltrators. 

 

I know we dont need the troops tax now, but I felt the Infiltrators were still worth it. The 12" screening of my backfield was good T1-3, the phobos then allowing the redeploy with Guerilla Tactics let me get into his DZ late on. The free helix gauntlet meant the one time they were shot, no damage was done. 

 

The Kratos survived the game totally unscathed, tanking a late Helbrute charge with a double 6 on it's saves. It managed a decent number of mortals, and the versatility of the battlecannon was good, threatening big targets or using blast to remove softer targets when needed. The Vindicator Laser Destroyer was good again, the consistent threat of it's flat 6 damage in overcharge is very nice. 

 

The Judiciar's tempormortis combined with Rites of War on the Bladeguard was massive on the centre, allowing them to tank Blightlord after Blightlord attacks while retaining control.

 

Roboute, as ever, was a little hit and miss on combat, but the reliability he provided to everything else was enormous. Boring as it is, the re-rolls do make him worth his points, even if his profile and weapons could do with being a little sexier.  

 

All in all a decent run out, will probs be playing next in a few weeks, but for the 1st game of the Arks of Omens, I was happy with how the list did. 

[Captain Idaho]

That is a solid win. I'm liking the impact of the Kratos alongside other armoured vehicles as a bit of saturation. 

 

Clever use of the objectives is an inspiring play for the army too. I'll remember that.

 

***

 

Been thinking about Ultramarines... we have access to Master of Strategy to grant a main unit (like a large Terminator or Aggressors squad, hint hint) to ensure they're in Tactical Doctrine, then we stick to Devastator Doctrine for our tanks and heavy weapons if needed.

 

I'm liking that idea.

[NKirkham24]

I've taken the Kratos every game i've played since it was built, I think it surprises a few and i've enjoyed running it. I still have a Sicaran & Whirlwind to build, so they could be other additons or alternatives in future. 

 

I found with the lack of troops and infantry manned heavy weapons, I didn't need tactical doctrine as much as I usually would. Devastator was obviously helpful with the vehicles, just adding even more punch, and especially helpful on the Volkite on the Kratos as its AP0 usually. 

 

Almost everything I fought had an invulnerable, so it didn't make a massive difference in this battle, but I like the flexbility. I also feel a HOGC Redemptor (or the Aggressors you mentioned) is a prime target for the strat that gives all the doctrines as he has both heavy and rapid fire guns, and makes use of the assault doctrine with the fist(s). 

[jpwyrm]

Well done! The Kratos is such a cool model, it's nice when it gets to do well on the tabletop too.

I wanted to ask, why Bladeguards over TH/SS Terminators?

[Meletiah]

What do you think about the use of Invictor Tactical Warsuit?

[NKirkham24]

I used to run an Invictor, with the flamer. forward deployed typically and use him as a big distraction, flame something squishy and charge something. I dropped him a while ago as he wasnt really that efficient, but I might need to revisit it with the points changes?

 

Why Bladeguard? I'm mainly primaris tbh, but do have Terminators I could use. It's a good shout given they're marginally cheaper now, although I will say the access to Transhuman was pretty big in the last game. 

 

I walked the bladeguard onto the centre objective, the option was to charge or claim the objective for Macragge, I went for the points and hoped they'd survive a hit from some Blightlords. With Transhuman they did, but i'm not sure if the terminators would?

 

Definitely some food for thought, and certainly a swap that could be made. 

[Tacitus]

I see a lot of people whooping and hollering over the points drop + Free upgrades but I've been less impressed which is ironic because most of the lists I made dropped 300-500 points.  But the free upgrades aren't free everywhere, and are often not upgrades.  The biggest "winners" were Aggressors, and Cent Devs probably.  But Cent Devs are still a little iffy on bang for buck compared to the Gladiators.  Many of the units that price dropped are still locked in as 3-and-only-3 - which is often just too small to be worth the FOC slot.  Their points are probably fine, but you just can't take enough of them in a unit to make an impact.  Sniper Eliminators.  Outriders.  Even Suppresors/Eliminators are hard to include.  I think they're more efficient than the Firestrikes but you just don't get enough output.  Though I do sometimes flirt with the idea of Lasfusil Eliminators hanging out with the Incursors instead of taking the Assault Intercessors.  Shorter Answer:  Some of the stuff you were already taking got cheaper.  Very little of the stuff you weren't taking became worth taking. 

 

A few other things I've been considering:

30 Sniper Scouts + Telion and/or a Phobos Cap/LT Pairing.  I don't think sniping is there yet, but now that the rifles and cloaks are free it could be pretty annoying.  Less than or just over 400 points for about 4+bubble Mortal Wounds per turn.  It would irritate the hell out of me if that were on the other side of the table from my list.  The Apothecary is the first red mist in the castle and it just expands outwards from there.  Many of the Armies that want to lean into the Elite Characters Only slots of the AOO Det would feel the same way. 

[greatcrusade08]

31 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

 

A few other things I've been considering:

30 Sniper Scouts + Telion and/or a Phobos Cap/LT Pairing.  I don't think sniping is there yet, but now that the rifles and cloaks are free it could be pretty annoying.  Less than or just over 400 points for about 4+bubble Mortal Wounds per turn.  It would irritate the hell out of me if that were on the other side of the table from my list.  The Apothecary is the first red mist in the castle and it just expands outwards from there.  Many of the Armies that want to lean into the Elite Characters Only slots of the AOO Det would feel the same way. 

 

My inner scout approves.

would you combine this with eliminators or do you think thats overkill? 

i am seeing alot of elite lists and hardcore characters

[Captain Idaho]

I'd be interested to see what you can do with a renewed 10th Company list, since there is more access to anti-tank (which was the downfall of a Scout list back in the day) if you like the concept of Scouts+Phobos in a 10th list.

 

Just sayin' 

 

I do think snipers are an interesting tool and I've seen someone with 9 Eliminators at a tournament terrorise some players by killing all their support characters.

 

However, I don't think that would help you much against some armies and thus you definitely need some variance with your points investment.

 

Regarding Centurions, I think they're back in a big way if you've got the build for them. They're big value items, so have other stuff that needs similar weapons to eliminate, such as vehicles and Terminators/Aggressors. Then when the opponent sees the Centurions at the back they have a genuine choice over which to focus on.

 

Sitting in Devastator Doctine for Centurions for an extra turn or 2 will make them quite dangerous too. Even Heavy Bolters, which are otherwise an inferior option, can put down enough AP-2 to be a genuinely decent threat to many vehicles.

 

Remember there's a bunch of targets with Invulnerable saves that you'll fire at, so the superior AP of Grav Cannons won't make a difference yet the extra 2 shots per Centurion is massively better.

 

As for Lascannons and Missile Launchers... you're getting a Devastator squad per model, so taking a single unit of 3 Centurions is the equivalent of taking 12 Heavy weapons! (D3 S8 shots averages equivalent of 2 Krak missiles basically, though at reduced damage of course)

[greatcrusade08]

27 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'd be interested to see what you can do with a renewed 10th Company list, since there is more access to anti-tank (which was the downfall of a Scout list back in the day) if you like the concept of Scouts+Phobos in a 10th list.

 

Just sayin' 

 

I do think snipers are an interesting tool and I've seen someone with 9 Eliminators at a tournament terrorise some players by killing all their support characters.

 

However, I don't think that would help you much against some armies and thus you definitely need some variance with your points investment.

 

I did tinker with an all phobos/primaris list a while back, but it wasnt as good. i think with points drops and using original scout models it could be interesting.

Im still not a fan of the 3 unit max on scouts tbf, but its certainly something i can post up about. Develop some theoreticals.

I think it failed becuase the eliminators were being asked to cover two roles, sniper and anti-tank.. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by greatcrusade08

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah you need all 3 of your Eliminators units to be pulling anti-tank duties in such a themed armies.

 

Phobo Speeders could help you somewhat eh.

 

***

 

I've been thinking of Cycle of War and its benefits in an Ultramarines army. We shoot long range in Devastator Doctrine, move to Tactical, turn 3/4 we hit back harder in melee then spend the last couple of turns with heavy weapons back into Devastator Doctrine. 

 

It's a flexibility we can really benefit from in some games, though obviously it's situational in the sense we might not want to move to the Assault Doctrine depending on what happens. But it is nice to essentially know we can run up benefits to our situations and then cycle back to have another bite of the Doctrines cherry.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[greatcrusade08]

I believe (correct me if im wrong) there are strats to stay in certain doctrines for an extra turn.

The ability to have two dev doctrine turns in turns 1/2 and then switch to tactical and assault would be amazing imo.

[Meletiah]

Actually, my main problem is that I don't have unit with mobility. What wre the best optionfor us?

 

[Captain Idaho]

9 hours ago, greatcrusade08 said:

I believe (correct me if im wrong) there are strats to stay in certain doctrines for an extra turn.

The ability to have two dev doctrine turns in turns 1/2 and then switch to tactical and assault would be amazing imo.

 

The player decides when to switch to the next Doctrine, so we can happily sit in one all game.

 

3 hours ago, Meletiah said:

Actually, my main problem is that I don't have unit with mobility. What wre the best optionfor us?

 

 

Do you want melee or firepower?

 

Firepower is Inceptors and to a lessor degree Suppressors (or are less powerful). Melee you should look no further than Vanguard. Point for point one of the best units in the Codex for any Chapter.

 

Bikes are good though, especially for Ultramarines. Give them Chainswords, 2 specials and a Combi and you have a powerful hit squad. 6 is a good number for that. They have Firepower and melee.

 

Outriders are ok but just 3 models and no specials. Similar issues with the Scout Bikers... I'd go with Attack Bikes with Heavy Bolters over both of them.

 

Speaking of which... 2 Attack Bikes in a unit is 4 Multi-melta shots! Unrivalled anti-tank for cost and reaching the target in the army!

 

Lastly Land Speeders; Typhoons are mini-Devastator squads really. 100pts for 3 Heavy Weapons essentially, on a fast moving platform that can hide at the back.

 

The Primaris Land Speeders suffer from expensive platforms. Sure they're only 25pts more than a Typhoon, but you're paying light tank prices for less than Light tank survivability. I suspect a list with plenty of other armoured targets can still make use of them, but people usually dip into Inceptors for similar points costs. Same goes for the Mario Kart - why pay for the ATV when either Attack Bikes or Inceptors suffice?

Edited January 20, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

ATV is more resilient but unfortunately not core… which might not be an issue.

[Captain Idaho]

To be fair the Invader has come down massively in points. 70pts is nothing. The problem is for 2 Invaders, you get 3 Attack Bikes (10pts off). Invaders obviously have 8 wounds which is good, but will that really off set the additional firepower when 3 separate targets vs 2 makes up for it?

 

Genuine question to be honest. Could be a case for Invaders in most lists. Or even 2 Invaders and a unit of 2 Attack Bikes if you want to upset someone!

[Tacitus]

22 hours ago, greatcrusade08 said:

 

My inner scout approves.

would you combine this with eliminators or do you think thats overkill? 

i am seeing alot of elite lists and hardcore characters

Maybe the Las Fusil ones, but I'd be more inclined to get some Firestrikes with dual Las Talon sitting on home field objectives.  I just don't like the 3-and-only-3 units. 

[Tacitus]

8 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

 

 

The Primaris Land Speeders suffer from expensive platforms. Sure they're only 25pts more than a Typhoon, but you're paying light tank prices for less than Light tank survivability.

I think you're paying for 6" and fly.   The current list I keep gravitating back to 

Spoiler

++ Supreme Command Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [19 PL, 18CP, 300pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

Detachment Command Cost [3CP]

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

Roboute Guilliman [19 PL, 3CP, 300pts]: Nobility Made Manifest, Warlord

++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [104 PL, -7CP, 1,675pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Game Type: 3. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nachmund

Unit Filter: Hide Imperial Agents, Hide Legends Units

+ HQ +

Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 120pts]

Primaris Chaplain [6 PL, 95pts]: 1. Litany of Faith (Aura), 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Benediction of Fury, Chapter Command:  Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate

+ Troops +

Heavy Intercessor Squad [7 PL, 115pts]: Heavy bolt rifle, Heavy bolter
. 4x Heavy Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant

Heavy Intercessor Squad [7 PL, 115pts]: Heavy bolt rifle, Heavy bolter
. 4x Heavy Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 150pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Bladeguard Ancient [6 PL, -2CP, 90pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Ancient, Standard of Macragge Inviolate, Steadfast Example, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts]
. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, -2CP, 100pts]: Acquittal, Chapter Command:  Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter

Victrix Honour Guard [3 PL, 55pts]

+ Fast Attack +

Storm Speeder Hailstrike [7 PL, 115pts]

Storm Speeder Thunderstrike [8 PL, 135pts]

+ Heavy Support +

Gladiator Reaper [10 PL, 150pts]: Auto Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Ironhail Heavy Stubber

Gladiator Valiant  [11 PL, 170pts]: Auto Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod, Ironhail Heavy Stubber

++ Total: [123 PL, 11CP, 1,975pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

has two Gladiators and two Stormspeeders.  It still needs some work to update - I need to stay up late enough to get to the GW and pickup the new CA.  But if I had four tanks (Probably possible with the same points in an AOO Det focused on HS slots) I have to worry about four different roadways for 4 tanks.  With two speeders I can fly over instead of worrying about a hole big enough for the model to pass through. 

[Tacitus]

Also the points drops + extra Elites and Extra HQ's...  I'm not a fan of this list because I rarely take 3 of any datasheet even Troops, I like mixing in a little of everything.  Throwing that out the window however, allow me to present Indomitus Retch.

Spoiler

++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [128 PL, 5CP, 1,970pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

Detachment Command Cost

Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen

+ HQ +

Primaris Chaplain [6 PL, 95pts]: Chapter Command:  Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate

Primaris Chapter Master [7 PL, 115pts]: Chapter Command:  Chapter Master
. Heavy bolt pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Relic shield

Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 65pts]
. Neo-volkite pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Storm Shield

Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 65pts]
. Neo-volkite pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Storm Shield

+ Troops +

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]
. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Plasma pistol, Power fist

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]
. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Plasma pistol, Power fist

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 150pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 150pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 150pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts]
. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts]
. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts]
. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Primaris Ancient [5 PL, -2CP, 85pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Ancient, Standard of Macragge Inviolate, Steadfast Example, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, -2CP, 100pts]: Acquittal, Chapter Command:  Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter

+ Lord of War +

Roboute Guilliman [19 PL, 3CP, 300pts]: Nobility Made Manifest, Warlord

++ Total: [128 PL, 5CP, 1,970pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

3 Reroll bubbles, 3 mini Deathstars with some ObSec, 2 will even have stick capping which isn't going to matter much because unless they have a bigger Deathstar, you're going to much whatever's on the Objective and they'll run out of units quicker than you'll run out of objectives. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Tacitus