=][= "LOVE" REACTION ADDED =][=

[Brother Tyler]

The LOVE reaction has been added.

 

 

As with LIKE and THANKS, this reaction confers one reputation point.

 

The basic breakdown is that the yellow face reactions do not confer any reputation points; the reactions with the white icons on other (non-yellow) colors all confer one reputation point.

 

The staff is discussing a few other possible additions/changes. Once we have resolved those discussions and implemented any resulting changes, we will publish a description of our theories regarding reactions (I say "theories" because no matter how we intend for them to be used, some members will find other uses).

[grailkeeper]

One for the lamenters fans

 

[Axineton]

Great stuff @Brother Tyler cheers to you and the mods for agreeing to add it. 

[Reskin]

Brother Tyler, could not “love” confer 2 pts of rep. It’s a stronger emotion than “like” and accepted as such universally.

[Brother Tyler]

Reactions are limited to +1, 0, or -1 reputation points.

[skylerboodie]

I did wonder what the point of a love option in addition to like option is, but I guess it's just for strength of feeling. Nothing against it of course, just surprised it's the first thing to choose to focus on, rather than a decent alternative to Angry.

[Brother Tyler]

It was a response to a suggestion by a member.

 

That discussion has prompted other suggestions and the staff is discussing our options. We don't want to rush into anything, though, because there are consequences once a decision is implemented and we don't want to experience unforeseen consequences, nor do we want to create friction if we need to undo anything later. The range of Reactions that we started with was the default options that came with the software, with the exception of the MEH Reaction that we added and then removed once we realized that it didn't work with our vision for the Reactions. We changed a couple of the icons for those default Reactions (i.e., LIKE was originally a white heart on a blue disc, and THANKS was originally a white trophy on a purple disc). Different communities have different philosophies behind Reactions. So we're nailing our philosophy down to ensure that the range of Reactions that we have is consistent with that philosophy (and to ensure that our philosophy is right for the sight).

 

What would you suggest for an alternative to ANGRY?

[Doghouse]

Something Khorne?

[skylerboodie]

20 minutes ago, Brother Tyler said:

What would you suggest for an alternative to ANGRY?

 

"Disagree".

 

Many thanks Brother Tyler

[Marshal Reinhard]

Disagree / strongly disagree?

[Brother Tyler]

No, there won't be any faction-based icons (except insofar as the Legio is our mascot, though we're trying to minimize icons based on the Legio). The system needs to be intuitive to new users.

 

Similarly, we've discussed and dismissed a number of potential reactions based on perceived impacts on the community. DISLIKE and DISAGREE are among those. There are eminently fair uses for such reactions, but there is also significant room for abuse/misuse and for friction within the community. In addition, such Reactions really require explanation via reply, so the Reaction icon becomes unnecessary.

 

A basic breakdown of our system right now (and this might change if we can find something better):

• Yellow icons (mostly faces, but there is the potential for other icons) - non-point-conferring Reactions
• Icons in other colors - point-conferring Reactions

Frater New Guy should be able to look at a Reaction icon and understand its intended meaning without having to hover his mouse over the icon. If Frater New Guy doesn't have in-depth knowledge of the setting, an icon that is from some faction might not be clear. Also keep in mind that the icons display at 20 x 20, so there isn't a lot of room for detail and nuance. Also, if we were to include any icons from one faction, fans of other factions would want "their" factions to be similarly represented, leading to a Reaction arms race.

 

It is highly unlikely that we'll have a large number of Reactions. Anyone that has been on Discord lately can see a plethora of Reactions, many of which are so obscure that they become almost meaningless - nothing more than entertaining ways to react to a post, but often serving only as entertainment/distraction. Admittedly, they are quick (except when you can't find that one that you know is there) and fun to use, but their influence on discussion is negligible. Reactions here work within a larger system of Reputation and Ranks, so it's important that we have a proper balance - not so many that they become a distraction, but enough that each is meaningful. And then there are different philosophies about the Reactions. On one extreme are those that enjoy using a wide variety of emojis, and on the other are those that would prefer few or none, with reactions coming in the form of replies that engage in discussion. I'm somewhere in the middle, but closer to the more conservative end of the spectrum. The Reaction system isn't about me, though, so it's important to find that balance that serves the needs of the community rather than any one individual. In this, I have to balance the desires of those that want A, those that want Z, those that are somewhere in between A and Z, and my own personal biases to find a common solution. The intent is to build a flexible system that supports the majority (while hopefully allowing for those on the extremes). An important element of the overall system is understanding how Reactions work within the Reaction/Reputation/Rank structure while also understanding the larger role of Reactions/emojis/emoticons in community engagement. I think there's room to expand our Reactions, but don't expect to see a range anywhere near what you can see on Discord (we're much more likely to remain closer to Facebook in this). Depending on how we complete the Reaction system, we might also expand the emoji/emoticon system to provide a wider range of options.

 

And we have to keep in mind that Reactions (and emojis/emoticons) are simply augmentations to community engagement. Reactions provide quick ways to give feedback to members, and sometimes to reward them for content that you like. However, we don't want Reactions to diminish actual constructive discussion. Ideally, and especially with "negative" Reactions, we want members to rely more on discussion. The "positive" Reactions aren't as problematic as they give the content creators feedback that [hopefully] encourage them to continue posting good content. "Negative" Reactions, meanwhile, are easily misinterpreted. We've had multiple instances where "negative" Reactions without replies were (mis)interpreted as simple insults. Even if they weren't (mis)interpreted, the lack of discussion doesn't tell the content creator what the reactor didn't like/understand, limiting discussion and creating unnecessary friction within the community. Some "negative" Reactions don't require explanation in certain contexts, but some practically demand clarification via a reply. This isn't desirable, so we're focusing on having a range of Reactions that best supports discussion and community engagement.

 

And all of this might change as we gain a better understanding of how Reactions can be used within the overall context of the site. I'm inclined to be more conservative on the front end, however, gradually easing up as we figure out where the limits should be.

[Noserenda]

Im not sure i agree, there are definitely times ive disagreed with a post, either on opinion or folks just stating wrong stuff but not had the need or energy to type out a response and even if it were the case, having a whole bunch of people dogpile with comments feels a lot worse than reactions do.

Its especially handy when reading through a lot of posts rather than a sprawling quote pile! 

Also what purpose does Angry serve? Its essentially the stopgap for the above imho, just with more negativity. A simple thumbs down feels like it comes with less baggage.

Definitely agree too many reactions is a bad idea though.

[Reskin]

I'm with Noserenda here, even 1 negative reaction like a simple dislike, which is the equivalent to like, shows others who are reading the thread that this comment in some way is wrong or unhelpful.

 

No point in being woke here Tyler and coating everyone in cotton wool. Someone has an opinion that they have willingly shared and then it's the communities M.O to judge that opinion, was this helpful or not?

If not, the community would teach/instruct that person in the way which they should go. Society/forum community won't grow otherwise.

 

Moderati don't ignore misbehavior, as I full well know, and neither should someone's ego be so protected that they can't receive a few dislikes.

[LameBeard]

Personally I’d be happy to go back to only one reaction “like” which is sort of “love” under B&C etiquette anyway. 
 

I don’t see the “dislike” as essential - very likely someone with an opposite opinion posted in the same thread - you can see where the likes go. And it doesn’t really differentiate between “I can see where you’re coming from, but I respectfully hold the opposite opinion” and “I sort of see your point but feel you are expressing yourself in a way that’s not really polite”.  
 

Happy just to see the positivity and I don’t think that’s cotton wool. Feel free to sad or angry this post though - I won’t be offended!

[Captain Idaho]

Guys, if in doubt, make a post. Reactions are a supplement to decent discussion, not a substitute for. Counting likes and dislikes instead of active discourse leads to the fall of society, chimps taking over, the great Cthullu rising from his slumber and a decline in activity on the board.

 

If there's a post you don't agree with, reply and explain. Make it polite and let's have a discussion.

 

[Cpt.Danjou]

I generally hate and dislike thumbs ups, likes, and dislikes in general, same with emoijs and such. If you just look at the painting forums, you might get what I mean. I have seen the "cool" boys getting loads and loads of likes and such for posts about what they might do in the future, who fizzles out to nothing or is necrod a couple of years later with maybe a picture of a sprue. And others who has recently joined who post their first painted beautiful model, and if they are lucky get a thumbs up from a moderati. No likes can be boring, but getting a dislike for a painted figure that you have spent hours doing, just because a lazy gatekeeper has the opinion, that red on a Blood angel is the "wrong" red, and not bother to write why, can be devastating. Not every member of this forum are 50+ year dudemeisters who has done 15 tours in Afghanistan, who are used to a harsher jargong. I am waiting for the day when we get some sort of negative likes, and how the hobby forums will die even further.

I stopped posting my work here because I did not find it worth the time, as I either did not get any feedback at all, when asking a question, or "thats not the right blood angel color lol".

Now some of you will say "That will not happen.",  "I would never do that.", but you know that the dislikes will be used to try to hurt others, we are talking about the internet, were the anonymity makes people brave.  If you have a negative opinion just vent it a post, so we know why

I have gotten a feeling that we are seeing a decrease of posts in the recent years, I have no idea if it is true, and we don't really need fewer posts because of people don't want dislikes.

 

Just my opinion.

Cpt. Danjou

[Xenith]

3 hours ago, Reskin said:

No point in being woke here Tyler and coating everyone in cotton wool. Someone has an opinion that they have willingly shared and then it's the communities M.O to judge that opinion, was this helpful or not?

 

And you can currently present objections and counter-arguments via the posting mechanism. Remember that the Bolter and Chainsword's Mission is constructive discussion. Dropping a 'dislike' emoji with no further comment would be a detriment to that. 

 

To quote your comment, a 'dislike' emoji would be akin to coating unconstructive commenters in cotton wool, who could then negative a post without providing context or reason for their actions. We've already seen the 'Meh' emoji used to flippantly dismiss posts.

 

And if someone has already posted the argument against a post you also disagree with...then you can always +1 the counterpost. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Xenith

[skylerboodie]

I was an advocate for a dislike option, but can appreciate the Mods recommendation for active discourse instead, which makes sense.

 

In view of the latter though - I am surprised that the Angry option was left in when Meh was culled, and presume it will be removed when further decisions are made? Not sure what circumstances an Angry emoji is deemed a valid reaction on B&C, given the preference for steering to comment-based feedback?

[Captain Idaho]

Just so we're clear and I haven't confused things; there are multiple reasons for not having a dislike button and forum engagement is just a single one. I mentioned it because forum engagement is something I'm focused on at the moment.

 

I didn't mean to make any official statement regarding the whole issue so I apologise if it came across as that. Listen to Tyler first on this, as always.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Reskin]

I get those reasonings. If data shows decreased activity, then doesn’t make sense to continue it. I wasn’t around for the “meh” period. So I wouldn’t know the impact, I’ve come back to reactions already being setup and used.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Reskin

[Captain Coolpants]

So which Internet stranger wants to send me love so I can feel cared for and wanted? 

 

 

Joking not joking 

[Reskin]

10 hours ago, Captain Coolpants said:

So which Internet stranger wants to send me love so I can feel cared for and wanted? 

 

 

Joking not joking 

Gotta grind that rep ;)

[Dudley Nightshade]

One thing that I sometimes find confusing with the angry reaction, which would also be confusing with a dislike reaction, is whether the reactor is angry at the post, or angry in sympathy with what the post is about. For example, if someone reacts with anger to a post complaining about GW prices, are they angry at GW or angry at the person criticizing GW?

 

Also, though there might be a better place to discuss it, @Cpt.Danjou's post about the Forge is quite interesting. I have noticed over the years that constructive criticism is waning, and when there is criticism, it tends maybe a little towards mean rather than helpful. It used to be that aspiring painters would post and get some great feedback to improve. I wonder if it is partly because of all the amazing tutorial sites and channels now that the need is being fulfilled elsewhere. Still, it is a shame if we are losing out on a safe place to get help with painting. As someone who basically never paints, I have no stake in this, but I like to see people get help when they muster the courage to ask for it.

[Reskin]

2 hours ago, Dudley Nightshade said:

One thing that I sometimes find confusing with the angry reaction, which would also be confusing with a dislike reaction, is whether the reactor is angry at the post, or angry in sympathy with what the post is about. For example, if someone reacts with anger to a post complaining about GW prices, are they angry at GW or angry at the person criticizing GW?

 

Also, though there might be a better place to discuss it, @Cpt.Danjou's post about the Forge is quite interesting. I have noticed over the years that constructive criticism is waning, and when there is criticism, it tends maybe a little towards mean rather than helpful. It used to be that aspiring painters would post and get some great feedback to improve. I wonder if it is partly because of all the amazing tutorial sites and channels now that the need is being fulfilled elsewhere. Still, it is a shame if we are losing out on a safe place to get help with painting. As someone who basically never paints, I have no stake in this, but I like to see people get help when they muster the courage to ask for it.

Probably some sense of truth to this.

 

I can think of 10 stuffin amazing YouTube channels for painting minis just off the top of my head.