If you could expand the statline, what would you add?

[Tymell]

Just something I'm curious about with all the talk lately of 10th edition (even if it's not a radical change, I'm just wondering about people's ideas).

 

Hypothetically, if the core statline of 40k units were expanded, what would you want added? The return of Initiative values? Some older RT-era mental stat like Intelligence, Willpower or Cool? Something entirely new?

[Arkangilos]

Initiative.

And bring back Leadership to how it was prior to 8th.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think re-adding initiative or similar mechanic would be nice.

would help differentiate between low, mid, and high level melee armies.

 

for example some melee armies could have high I with mid A and mid S could be like BA, WS, etc.

 

then others could be mid I low A and high S could be something like orks.

 

Low S high I high A could be armies like DE

 low S mid l low A could be like scions and Kasrkin.

 

this way you can have multiple armies that are good in melee, just good at it in multiple different ways.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arikel]

If initiative is brought back it should be as roll, so slower armies (like orks) still have a chance to go first on occasion. Fixed init was brutal  in the old manner.

[Nephaston]

Maybe something like agility, which admittedly could just be initiative, where GEQ is of course the baseline, marines slightly higher, necrons maybe slightly lower, and eldar, bikes, and speeders of course high.

Have this stat be comparative against ballistic skill to signify the models ability to avoid weapons fire by evasion.

And then get rid of any invulnerable save that is based on evasion like Jink. That way we save a bit of rules space by having a core rule that covers the same concept.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Arikel said:

If initiative is brought back it should be as roll, so slower armies (like orks) still have a chance to go first on occasion. Fixed init was brutal  in the old manner.

I don’t understand why people have an issue with the I stat but no other stats…

 

now imagine a grot managing to out roll angron and get to fight first

 

And for example the BA death masks could change to -1 to enemy I, leveling the playing field potentially against higher I opponents or giving the advantage against the same I stat.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arkangilos]

20 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

now imagine a grot managing to out roll angron and get to fight first

It also clogs up the game with more rolls. 
 

Orks should be slower than SM, on par with Guard (but stronger and tougher than Guard).
Eldar should be faster than standard SM. 
 

Tau should probably be the slower ones, since they aren’t as focused on it.

 

CC SM chapters should be faster than standard SM.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

It also clogs up the game with more rolls. 
 

Orks should be slower than SM, on par with Guard (but stronger and tougher than Guard).
Eldar should be faster than standard SM. 
 

Tau should probably be the slower ones, since they aren’t as focused on it.

 

CC SM chapters should be faster than standard SM.

I’d put GEQs at a 2/6 orks 3/6 MEQ 4/6 

elite and HQs for MEQs 5/6 or 6/6 depending on things like role and chapter affiliation for unique units.

 

DE 5/6 for most, warriors would probably be fine as a 4.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I wonder how Ork players feel about that and I’m sure Banshees and Incubi will love shredding your Marines irregardless if you charged them.

[Cleon]

I saw a re-introduced initiative as more base stat, + special rule (if applicable) + charging bonus +d6 for each unit in the melee.

 

So tactical squad (4) + (Blood Angels charging (1)) + charging (2) + d6 vs Banshees (6) + D6, would be a slight tilt in the marines favour for specialists, even chance for most.

but if the banshee charges

Banshees (6) + masks (1) + charging (2) + d6 vs tacticals (4) + d6, would be very hard for the marines to overcome, but would be possible to strike simultaneously.

 

I'd limit init 6 to Eldar characters, Banshees and Scorpions, other aspects would be 5, guardians 4 and wraithguard/blades probably 2.

Similar Orks would be a base 2, with an army additional bonus +1 when charging, turning to a +2 when charging if they got 9 or more on their charge roll (ere we GO!)

Edited February 7, 2023 by Cleon

[Emperor Ming]

I wouldn't add anything actually

 

Another something, means mores strats, rules, faqs etc

 

Things that interact with that new something might be endless being 40k

 

No more bloat thanks

[Craig]

I don't know what you'd call it but a number to signify how many times a unit can have a stratagem used on it per game. 

For example intercessors could have a value of 5 to signify that they can be affected by 5 friendly stratagems per game. A repulsor might have a value of 1 and a primarch a value of 0. This would prevent a lot of crazy combos and add a greater element of strategy to the game.

[Inquisitor lorr]

40 minutes ago, Craig said:

I don't know what you'd call it but a number to signify how many times a unit can have a stratagem used on it per game. 

For example intercessors could have a value of 5 to signify that they can be affected by 5 friendly stratagems per game. A repulsor might have a value of 1 and a primarch a value of 0. This would prevent a lot of crazy combos and add a greater element of strategy to the game.

I really like that as a concept and it could be very helpful to balance strats, but from a practical perspective I think it adds too much to the already existing bloat/record keeping. 

[Xenith]

Initiative for sure, however this does change the entire fight phase in current 40k, where combats are resolved sequentially, instead of individual units fighting sequentially. 

 

One of the big issues with the game is the bloat and confustion with:

Strikes First

Strikes Last

Cannot be selected to fight until all other units have been selected.

Models that charged other models that Strike First

 

In an edition that went hard on statlines and modifers, all or nothing fights first/fights last was an odd choice. Keeping the I stat and applying modifiers would have been a more natural dovetail to the other game mechanics - like charging units get +1 I. 

 

Weapon skill is the other option, however at that point we might as well be playing 6th...

 

4 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I wonder how Ork players feel about that and I’m sure Banshees and Incubi will love shredding your Marines irregardless if you charged them.

 

It worked ok from 3rd - 7th? It was also balanced out by banshees needing 5's to wound marines, and orks being T4 and half the points of a marine.

 

In 8/9th, where weaponskill and initiative has been removed (the main defences of the banshee) and the natural advantage of the banshee in striking first (at I5) is largely gone, they had to give them +1S, +1A and +1 to wound to make them stand a chance. So in an edition where lumbering orks can fight before agile eldar, they had to make the eldar stronger and tougher to match up...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

I saw a re-introduced initiative as more base stat, + special rule (if applicable) + charging bonus +d6 for each unit in the melee.

 

So tactical squad (4) + (Blood Angels charging (1)) + charging (2) + d6 vs Banshees (6) + D6, would be a slight tilt in the marines favour for specialists, even chance for most.

but if the banshee charges

Banshees (6) + masks (1) + charging (2) + d6 vs tacticals (4) + d6, would be very hard for the marines to overcome, but would be possible to strike simultaneously.

 

I'd limit init 6 to Eldar characters, Banshees and Scorpions, other aspects would be 5, guardians 4 and wraithguard/blades probably 2.

Similar Orks would be a base 2, with an army additional bonus +1 when charging, turning to a +2 when charging if they got 9 or more on their charge roll (ere we GO!)

So more bloat… no thanks.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would definitely add Initiative back in. I understand and even agree with the argument to remove it, were they to have to not introduced certain other mechanics. However, once the fight first/fight last/etc. mechanics were really added in and became prevalent, they essentially recreated what initiative was doing, but without an easy way to plot it out numerically. So now it's more confusing than if they just left it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve seen nothing to indicate they will remove it, look at AoS. This is just wishlisting.

[Slave to Darkness]

4 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

I wouldn't add anything actually

 

Another something, means mores strats, rules, faqs etc

 

Things that interact with that new something might be endless being 40k

 

No more bloat thanks

1st edition had more stats than now, and less bloat. 

[tychobi]

I would remove movement, strength, toughness, and leadership. Bloat is bad. Initiative never worked. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wasn’t it more of a skirmish game like Warcry?

[Slave to Darkness]

41 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Wasn’t it more of a skirmish game like Warcry?

Kinda, people played it as a massed battle game though. I dont think GW's constant updates and whatnot is helping with the state of the game though. At least in 1st ed any rules changes were permanent, not rolled back a few months later then changed again, and again... 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I prefer it to not addressing known issues.

[Cleon]

It's not so much more bloat as different - it'd remove the current nonsense around the fight on the left flank impacting the fight on the right flank because you take turns getting your units to punch people and also the nonsense about using the interrupt strategm to punch charges who aren't the first unit chosen. I'm not saying it's perfent, but ideally I'd like something that was tilted towards an outcome, but not certain and relied on the models abilities rather than the players decisions.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I wonder how Ork players feel about that and I’m sure Banshees and Incubi will love shredding your Marines irregardless if you charged them.

They’ll shred my guard regardless of if I charge them or not. 
 

people complain about this some how being unfair, but I just don’t see how its less fair than any other stat in the game. 

[Halandaar]

Initiative is certainly the one I thought of first here, but I agree there needs to be some variation to it. Knowing that you are going to be getting hit first every single time in every single combat can potentially make melee a complete write-off for your army across the whole game and that's no fun for anybody.