List of the "Problematic" units?

[Slips]

13 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

I guess the bad army list he keeps posting is indeed his army list he plays and bases his whole argument on. Problem is that this isn't the standard SG list you'll about to see in the wild. 

Instead we see two Phalanx Wardens, Recons with Nemesis bolters, scorpion, one 10 men lascannons Heavy Support Squad including a MoS and a Castellan some shooty or cc dreadnoughts, apos for the wardens and another shooty unit from the heavy slot plus additional stuff for taste. It may be boring but it is definitely effective and hardly balanced which is the whole point why people rightfully complain about those rules. 

 

Anyways I don't want to talk about wardens again. We made our point and that's about it. 

 

Instead I want to talk Secutors.

Are those problematic?

Unfortunately, Mechanicum aren't really in a position as a whole to be problematic so while one unit can be stronger than most, when the rest of the army is a net negative in performance, theres only so much they can carry.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Maybe? It's a lot of plasma, and will eat right through 3+ like nothing, and also averages 2-2.5 dead terminators/3 wounds to a contemptor per volley. 

 

They can definitely be a tricky problem for a legion army to solve from range and they do match up pretty well into contemptors as well, but there's so many Legion special units with volume of ap3 attacks that can blow through them pretty easily in combat. And then their high ld and stubborn works against them, as theyre protecting the enemy unit in their own shooting phase. 

 

They're also still a distinct part of the Vindicator club, with the rest of the mechanicum roster, so idk how problematic they can really be when the entire army is basically hard countered by one unit lol. The Custodes and contemptors lack something like that. 

[MARK0SIAN]

Yeah, I’ve run Secutors in a list and they were good, but Slips and Skimaskmohawk are right. Their damage output isn’t enough to carry the other mechanicum units and they can get chewed up pretty easily in melee. If they were in a marine army they’d probably need a points hike but as they are at the moment, they’re not really problematic. 

[Brofist]

Yep. That touches one of my big complaints about 2.0: poor ol' mechanicum. Thanks Anuj you did a great job.

[Bung]

11 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

I guess the bad army list he keeps posting is indeed his army list he plays and bases his whole argument on. Problem is that this isn't the standard SG list you'll about to see in the wild. 

Instead we see two Phalanx Wardens, Recons with Nemesis bolters, scorpion, one 10 men lascannons Heavy Support Squad including a MoS and a Castellan some shooty or cc dreadnoughts, apos for the wardens and another shooty unit from the heavy slot plus additional stuff for taste. It may be boring but it is definitely effective and hardly balanced which is the whole point why people rightfully complain about those rules. 

 

Anyways I don't want to talk about wardens again. We made our point and that's about it. 

 

Instead I want to talk Secutors.

Are those problematic?

 

Its not the list i play.

Its basically the proof that with "Fists get it all" you basically run out of Points fast.

 

And i dont see the problem in your list.

Lascannons HSS, Contemptors, Nemesis Recons and Scorpion is basically stuff every Legion brings to the table.

Havent seen much Lists without any of this units regardless of the Legion.

 

The difference is, if you replace the Warders with Tactical Squads you have 350+ Points you can put in more units.

 

I rather question the community if SG and similar lists are normal lists you see.

 

 

[MichaelCarmine]

3 hours ago, Bung said:

 

Its not the list i play.

Its basically the proof that with "Fists get it all" you basically run out of Points fast.

 

And i dont see the problem in your list.

Lascannons HSS, Contemptors, Nemesis Recons and Scorpion is basically stuff every Legion brings to the table.

Havent seen much Lists without any of this units regardless of the Legion.

 

The difference is, if you replace the Warders with Tactical Squads you have 350+ Points you can put in more units.

 

I rather question the community if SG and similar lists are normal lists you see.

 

 

He mentioned it, because nobody plays 4 units of those who shall not be named per list.

2 Units, that's it, that's all it takes to get a solid wall of scoring units.

That can wither so much more storm, than any other scoring unit in the game.

 

And ofcourse you see many lascannons squads, contemptors and nemesis recons. But with Fists, Lascannon Squads get scoring (with the mentioned castellan), contemptors with Assaultcannons/Autocannons/Heavy Bolters still hit on 2s, when nightfighting is in play and the Fists nemesis recon are BS5.

All in addition tho the unit who shall not be named.

 

Nobody ever said, that Fists are not beatable - matter of fact, i haven't lost a game against them, with my RG. One with my Vlka Fenryka though...

We just adress, that there is a certain imbalance in the amount of buffs, that IFs give to the units, "everyone" takes.

[TheTrans]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:39 AM, Brofist said:

Yep. That touches one of my big complaints about 2.0: poor ol' mechanicum. Thanks Anuj you did a great job.

"Well if it isn't marines, why are you playing them?" ~HH2.0 Rules Team motto, probably

[Noserenda]

20 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

"Well if it isn't marines, why are you playing them?" ~HH2.0 Rules Team motto, probably

Definitely feels that way sometimes, im hoping the team changes has shifted that attitude. 

On a side note, they are at least reading the FAQ emails :) 

[Bung]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:49 PM, MichaelCarmine said:

He mentioned it, because nobody plays 4 units of those who shall not be named per list.

2 Units, that's it, that's all it takes to get a solid wall of scoring units.

That can wither so much more storm, than any other scoring unit in the game.

 

And ofcourse you see many lascannons squads, contemptors and nemesis recons. But with Fists, Lascannon Squads get scoring (with the mentioned castellan), contemptors with Assaultcannons/Autocannons/Heavy Bolters still hit on 2s, when nightfighting is in play and the Fists nemesis recon are BS5.

All in addition tho the unit who shall not be named.

 

Nobody ever said, that Fists are not beatable - matter of fact, i haven't lost a game against them, with my RG. One with my Vlka Fenryka though...

We just adress, that there is a certain imbalance in the amount of buffs, that IFs give to the units, "everyone" takes.

 

I made a different experience. I need at least 30+ Warders with Apothecaries to be at successfull in my group or need at least a bunch of other Units with Line. 

If you play on rather dense tables that Recons with Nemesis Bolters arent really usefull cause they cant Infiltrate in Stone Gauntlet.

 

Personly i think you have to much Gimmiks to make Warders and portuinty point costs to feel Warders should get nerfed.

 

In my eyes you shouldnt alter Warders, you should change Stone Gauntlet back to the HH 1.0 version with Breachers as the compulsory troops.

 

[MichaelCarmine]

58 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

I made a different experience. I need at least 30+ Warders with Apothecaries to be at successfull in my group or need at least a bunch of other Units with Line. 

If you play on rather dense tables that Recons with Nemesis Bolters arent really usefull cause they cant Infiltrate in Stone Gauntlet.

 

Personly i think you have to much Gimmiks to make Warders and portuinty point costs to feel Warders should get nerfed.

 

In my eyes you shouldnt alter Warders, you should change Stone Gauntlet back to the HH 1.0 version with Breachers as the compulsory troops.

 

Wait - i know that i do not play IFs myself, but i only know of the restriction, that Units in SG are prohibited from executing DeepStrike/SubterraneanAssault/FlankingAssault. Which rule forbids them to infiltrate? What did i miss?

[SkimaskMohawk]

9 minutes ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Wait - i know that i do not play IFs myself, but i only know of the restriction, that Units in SG are prohibited from executing DeepStrike/SubterraneanAssault/FlankingAssault. Which rule forbids them to infiltrate? What did i miss?

 

None of the restrictions forbid it; you can take infiltrators as long as they aren't forced into outflank by some non-existent rule interaction. 

 

 

[Bung]

4 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Wait - i know that i do not play IFs myself, but i only know of the restriction, that Units in SG are prohibited from executing DeepStrike/SubterraneanAssault/FlankingAssault. Which rule forbids them to infiltrate? What did i miss?

 

Yeah, my failure. You only dont get Deep Strike etc. 

I dont have Nemesis Recons myself, its Not a unit thats high on my list to build.

 

Still after a few games with and against Stone Gauntlet its a boring RoW to play in my eyes.

[MichaelCarmine]

13 hours ago, Bung said:

 

Yeah, my failure. You only dont get Deep Strike etc. 

I dont have Nemesis Recons myself, its Not a unit thats high on my list to build.

 

Still after a few games with and against Stone Gauntlet its a boring RoW to play in my eyes.

Really? If i had the option to field relatively cheap, scoring, infiltrating BS5 Snipers, i'd want atleast a unit of them, even if they just sit on an objective. =]

[Bung]

21 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Really? If i had the option to field relatively cheap, scoring, infiltrating BS5 Snipers, i'd want atleast a unit of them, even if they just sit on an objective. =]

 

I may build a squad but i have more fun using other stuff.

Noone expects IF Assault Squads and Jetbikes.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So looking back through Adepticon and it's details some of the army comps talked about weren't really that popular. For the try-hards, the doubles tournament saw alot of Night Lords, Custodes, and FotA lists. Almost no DA, IF etc.

 

Several people took either all tank lists or deepstrike heavy lists and many players seemed to have done poorly when playing against those specific list in the narrative event.

 

From the people I've talked to, being able to field 10-12 predators/sicarans is much easier to transport, build, paint and play than 80-100 foot soldiers. Which makes sense. But then also having 2k+ points coming in from reserves via deepstrike really put too much pressure on a large portion of the player base.

 

Not sure if this really brings anything new to the conversation, still I find it interesting.

 

From the list breakdowns almost everyone took a named character or primarch. Few people took FotA in the narrative event, but there was definitely some strong cheese lists. There's been some pretty interesting breakdowns of how pyrix turned out I suggest you guys check out some content breakdowns. It has been pretty cool ride in year 1.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Not sure if this really brings anything new to the conversation, still I find it interesting.

We talk about problematic units or single models and not army lists. That is a whole different topic and maybe worth another thread. 

[MARK0SIAN]

On 4/14/2023 at 1:33 PM, TheTrans said:

"Well if it isn't marines, why are you playing them?" ~HH2.0 Rules Team motto, probably

It does seem a bit like that but I actually think most of it is an over-correction of the over tuned stuff from first edition. Mechanicum could be pretty oppressive last edition, same for Thousand Sons who also got a good kicking this edition. Custodes were also pretty difficult to deal with at points although they haven’t been pantsed to the same degree mechanicum have been.

 

Hopefully they’ll realise they over-nerfed and maybe correct it to a degree at a later date.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The thing with deepstrike is that it's incredibly one-sided to play against until you start teching in counters, and that makes it one sided the other way.

 

The master of signals makes it a coin flip for the follow up units, and unless your initial unit is really resilient and really killy, it's usually not worth it to spend a huge amount on deepstrike and risk it being relegated. Past that, tely librarians just rob units of multiple turns with their interceptor/return fire/overwatch, as do snipers to a much smaller extent. Stuff like sang+10 paladins/dawnbreakers with 3 incadeus in deepstrike basically demands a master of signal or an interceptor castle.

 

Also not surprised to see night lords as a popular Legion. They have a lot of avenues to punish lack of tech, with both deepstrike and morale, have a good Legion trait, and a frankly overpowered primarch (who also saves a ton of points by showing up). 

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Reading this thread makes me feel really bad about my Shield Wall army until I realize its 6000 Points and would get tabled easily. 

 

HQ

Cat Praetor and Cmd Squad

2 Centurions

 

Troops

2x20 Warders

4x20 Breachers

 

Elites

2x3 Contemptors

2x10 Cataphractii with Shields

 

Heavy Support

3x Leviathans

2x Deredeos

[Razorblade]

I personally find that the problematic units can be grouped into 3 categories. 

The first one is for the unredeemables, units that have mechanics that are so fundamentally unfun, that they would need major changes to either their own or the core rules to be fixed. Even if these units where overcosted they would make for an unpleasant experience to play against.

This is: 

1. Units that basically cannot be attacked because of devastating reactions (Fullsize Lascannon HSS, Fullsize Lascannon/MM Javelins) Fix: Limit all reactions to defensive weapons? 

2. Anything with Telepathy, because practically autopinning anything is again super unfun, especially because it can happen as part of a reaction.(Librarians, Thousand Sons) Fix: Reword Hallucinations to not ignore stubborn, ban psychic weapons from being used in reactions.

3. Rerollable invulns because they're just tedious to play against and a nightmare to resolve against mass brutal. (Stone Gauntlet)

Fix: Change the Invuln buff from Stone Gauntlet to something else. Incoming attacks are -1ST for the purposes of rolling to wound only? 

The second category consists of units that are strong but fine-ish individually but will quickly overwhelm the enemy if used en-masse. They also tend to be somewhat undercosted. Hallmarks are: 2+ Save, WS 5, Ideally Line and/or Troops (Custodes, Dreads, Invictarii) 

Fix: These units could all do with a price hike but are otherwise fine as long as they do not make up the majority of the force. This is easy enough to achieve for the legion units, Custodes on the other hand should probably only be run as part of a force that also includes squishier Stuff (Sisters of Silence, Solar Auxilia, Troop and Vehicle Heavy Legion/Admech Allies) 

In the third category one finds units that are relatively cheap and lack competition. There is nothing inherently problematic about them, but they end up in so many lists that they become a tiring sight to see. (Nemesis-Recons, Scorpii) Fix: Buff the other Power Armoured Troops, Snipers and Artillery, so that these Guys are no longer the autotake for their role.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Razorblade
Grammar

[Gorgoff]

I couldn't agree more.

Well done.

 

Have we talked about the Iron Hands Moritat with two Geav Pistols yet?

He casually deletes every vehicle and dreadnought which crosses his path and such sort of things strongly fall into the unfun category. 

It is a meta unit as well.

If your opponent doesn't have Dreadnoughts, vehicles etc in the army he doesn't do anything but since everyone takes at least some of these things it is so annoying. 

Reminds me of the Skitarii Hoplites(?) in the past.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

I couldn't agree more.

Well done.

 

Have we talked about the Iron Hands Moritat with two Geav Pistols yet?

He casually deletes every vehicle and dreadnought which crosses his path and such sort of things strongly fall into the unfun category. 

It is a meta unit as well.

If your opponent doesn't have Dreadnoughts, vehicles etc in the army he doesn't do anything but since everyone takes at least some of these things it is so annoying. 

Reminds me of the Skitarii Hoplites(?) in the past.

 

Both skitarii units roasted vehicles in 1st, and termites full of them were solidly in the "very unfun category". 

 

And yea, the grav moritat has some real frustration points if hes deployed to blunt a few dreads or vehicles; anything they can do to kill him prompts a 12 haywire shot reaction.

[Razorblade]

6 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Have we talked about the Iron Hands Moritat with two Geav Pistols yet?

He casually deletes every vehicle and dreadnought which crosses his path and such sort of things strongly fall into the unfun category. 

It is a meta unit as well.

If your opponent doesn't have Dreadnoughts, vehicles etc in the army he doesn't do anything but since everyone takes at least some of these things it is so annoying.

I've left this guy out along with Volkite HSSs because a lot of units can attack these with little to fear in terms of overwatch/return fire (Volkites do 2ish Wounds to a Contemptor on average and nothing against AV13+, Gravitat does 1ish wound to regular Power Armour) but depending on the list their firmly category 1 problem units and also so cost-efficient that they're absolutely overrepresented

[Noserenda]

Ahhh the Joy of mortitats and legion specific pistols rears its ugly head again, like the infinite hits hand flamer moritat it probably needs and FAQ tidying.

[Slips]

The Grav Pistol one is at least less egregious than infinite hits and infinite wounds Hand Flamer moritats just a REALLY hard counter to stuff.