'Siege of Terra - The End and the Death Volume 1' by Dan Abnett

[Moonreaper666]

10 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

I have a feeling...

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Your expectations around Valdor may well be subverted!
 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Valdor becomes a Radical Inquisitor post-Heresy. The Yellow King

 

Chaos can't corrupt Custodes. But they CAN drive them crazy or use mind-control

 

Horus uses mind control to get several Custodes killed

 

The Inquisition is doomed to create corrupt and crazy Inquisitors

 

[Corinthus]

Valdor's story is setting up for a big moment that will shock him and put him on the path for the Bequinverse. I think it will be related to the Apollonian Spear and killing someone with enough insight to make him "turn" againts de Imperium.

 

Spoiler

Volume 1 reinforces the incorruptibility of the Custodes, first by showing how Horus or the Gods "puppet" them against their will, turning them crazy as their bodies move against their genetic will; and two by showing the conflict between Amon Tauromachian and the other Custodes over Fo's fate: where both sides have reasons to act their orders but, in the end, it all goes down to legislative discussion over authority and chain of command. So they are so loyal that Valdor could "betray" the Imperium without breaking his conditioning. Maybe he shanks something and gets illuminated on how the 40k version of the Imperium will be a mistake and how his true mission must be whatever he is doing in Bequin.

I don't know, I'm just thinking about it on my lunch break

 

[DukeLeto69]

14 minutes ago, Corinthus said:

Valdor's story is setting up for a big moment that will shock him and put him on the path for the Bequinverse. I think it will be related to the Apollonian Spear and killing someone with enough insight to make him "turn" againts de Imperium.

 

  Hide contents

Volume 1 reinforces the incorruptibility of the Custodes, first by showing how Horus or the Gods "puppet" them against their will, turning them crazy as their bodies move against their genetic will; and two by showing the conflict between Amon Tauromachian and the other Custodes over Fo's fate: where both sides have reasons to act their orders but, in the end, it all goes down to legislative discussion over authority and chain of command. So they are so loyal that Valdor could "betray" the Imperium without breaking his conditioning. Maybe he shanks something and gets illuminated on how the 40k version of the Imperium will be a mistake and how his true mission must be whatever he is doing in Bequin.

I don't know, I'm just thinking about it on my lunch break

 

You could be right but...

 

I still think we will find out that Valdor is enacting the Emperor’s will but we shall see...one day!

[Ubiquitous1984]

9 hours ago, Corinthus said:

Valdor's story is setting up for a big moment that will shock him and put him on the path for the Bequinverse. I think it will be related to the Apollonian Spear and killing someone with enough insight to make him "turn" againts de Imperium.

 

  Hide contents

Volume 1 reinforces the incorruptibility of the Custodes, first by showing how Horus or the Gods "puppet" them against their will, turning them crazy as their bodies move against their genetic will; and two by showing the conflict between Amon Tauromachian and the other Custodes over Fo's fate: where both sides have reasons to act their orders but, in the end, it all goes down to legislative discussion over authority and chain of command. So they are so loyal that Valdor could "betray" the Imperium without breaking his conditioning. Maybe he shanks something and gets illuminated on how the 40k version of the Imperium will be a mistake and how his true mission must be whatever he is doing in Bequin.

I don't know, I'm just thinking about it on my lunch break

 

I wonder if Valdor will shank Horus with the Spear?  Or maybe a daemon like Samus?

 

Either way none of this can turn him too crazy as we have established lore that he goes off with Russ after the Heresy, IIRC from the Wraight short story.

[Moonreaper666]

3 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

I wonder if Valdor will shank Horus with the Spear?  Or maybe a daemon like Samus?

 

Either way none of this can turn him too crazy as we have established lore that he goes off with Russ after the Heresy, IIRC from the Wraight short story.

 

Considering Russ is MIA or worse and Magnus knows what happened things probably aren't good

 

Valdor is basically an Inquisitor. Inquisitors follow a certain self-destructive cycle. Puritarinism to Radicalism as they get older

 

Vangorich the Beheader went mad after a few decades. 10k years is more than enough time to drive Valdor insane

 

Valdor is the Yellow King

[System Sound]

8 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

I wonder if Valdor will shank Horus with the Spear?  Or maybe a daemon like Samus?

 

Either way none of this can turn him too crazy as we have established lore that he goes off with Russ after the Heresy, IIRC from the Wraight short story.

It would be almost ironic if he gets shanked by Valdor too since Horus was already "pierced" by Russ. Wonder if there would be any significance in being stabbed by both metaphysical spears.

[Roomsky]

The End and the Death - Part 1 - Dan Abnett

 

There's something funny about a book titled "The End and the Death" being split into parts. And it is equally funny, or equally sad depending on your perspective, that it didn't have to be. Do I blame Abnett? The editor? The studio? I don't know, but SOMEONE is to blame for padding this out, and I'm quite annoyed with them because this good book could have been an amazing one.

 

 

 

-Style-

"Style over substance" is often derogatory, and I think that under-sells the importance of presentation in a product's quality. Pick your "best-of" film, be it Godfather, Citizen Kane, whatever. Their plots could be untouched, but if the dialogue, cinematography, and acting were all mediocre, would anyone consider them the greatest ever? Doubtful.

Abnett is going balls to the wall on style for this book, and it's a big part of why I enjoy it so much. Yes, most of it borders on pretentious. Yes, it's eye-rolling when it crosses that threshold, but there is tremendous ambition here and I think 9 times out of 10 he pulls it off. Yes, Horus' second-person POV is irritating. Yes, the 3-page-long sentence should have died with the first draft. But damn, do I think the rest makes up for it. The repetition almost always works. The cast all have a unique, believable voice. MOST of the action is rendered with artful minimalism. YMMV of course, but I think this reads like a dream.

9/10

 

-Plot-

As I said, this should never have been 2 books.

The good news is: I think we who were afraid Abnett's twists/retcons/elaborations were going to tank the series can rest easy. Malcador is on the throne. Sanguinius is bleeding to death even as he fights towards Horus. Horus lowered the shields himself (I type, cackling madly, finally free of 6000 stupid fan theories.) Primarch Alpharius is still dead. Horus is still the first-found son.

In many ways, this is the series finale I hoped for. Elaboration, added complexity, wheels within wheels, but nothing that subverts why we came here in the first place. Abnett plays the hits, and when he does, they're fantastic. His own meta-narrative additions I quite like too, especially that the Heresy was an attempt to give humanity its own fall of the Eldar. Where the Siege started as a disappointingly standard Chaos invasion, you now really feel like this is their biggest play, ever.

I'll admit, I was worried going in that the entire multi-author affair would be rendered moot by this book just being the Abnett OC show. And while there's lots of that, respect is paid to the effort everyone put in to get here. The Dark Angels are not ignored, and are written well enough that they're one of my favourite parts of the book. Cyrene is here, being far more dangerous and important than I ever could have hoped. The Alpha Legion's sub-palace vaults remain from Praetorian of Dorn. Myriad characters from the series' most eclectic corners get a nod, even if just for a single passage. My only nitpick here is that Archamus is technically the third to hold that name, ya goof.

So, thing is, for the first half of this book I was in awe. Wow, I thought, the plots are moving, a mystery is established but nothing stupid is being done, and the little character moments are superb. Could this book be a match for Echoes for best in the series? Is Abnett going to outdo his own, genius, Saturnine? I continue, elated. Malcador sits on the chair. The Emperor rises. They teleport to the Vengeful Spirit. Dorn is in a personal hell. The corruption is so intense, the Emperor's own Custodians attack him! Sanguinius is dying, but fights on! And then- wait. Hold up. We're only half way through the book! What does he do for the rest of it, if Sanguinius fights Horus in part 2?

Unfortunately, the answer is "very little."

And look, I get that verisimilitude demands characters encounter road blocks instead of magically slotting into their appointed places. But the latter half of this book is just characters slowly meandering towards their ultimate fate instead. Could Oll and Co have not just Chaos-knifed onto the Vengeful Spirit? Does Loken really have to help Sindermann read through stacks of old poetry? Do we really need to pad the length with startlingly dull Rann and Zephon chapters?

no. Half a book is more than enough account for Horus v Sanguinius, the Emperor, and 50 neat revelations besides (especially if you save page space by not having 500-word chapters.)

7.5 for a 10/10 first half and a 5/10 second.

 
-Characters-

Like the style, the character work thankfully makes the second half much better than it could have been. Malcador's POV is wonderful, and it makes his ultimate fate hit surprisingly hard. If nothing else, Abnett knows when to be over the top and when to reign it in. Malcador's slow, hobbled climb to the last seat he'll ever take is just fantastic. I also appreciate how much he talks about the Emperor, and I think the first-person POV makes it all the better. Here is the brilliant but flawed so many craved to read about. Here too is that account through the Emperor's best friend, whose level of bias is left up to the reader. Expertly done.

Zahariel and Corswain were a pleasant surprise. Between this and Unremembered Empire, I wish we'd seen more of Abnett's vision for the First Legion. Would've been a damn sight better than most of what we got, that's for sure. Their foes, the Death Guard, are also excellently portrayed. Typhus doesn't have much page time, but he makes a hell of an impression.

Horus' weird POV is great; I know many aren’t a fan of crazy-old-man-Horus, but to me it keeps his personality in tact without dampening the fact the Gods are using him as a puppet. In a relatively small amount of pages, Abnett reminds us who this guy is and why we care.

Most of everyone else is pitch-perfect, too. Abaddon, Keeler, Oll and co, Sanguinius, Valdor. Satandout writing, for all.

Then there's Zephon and Rann. How does someone as skilled as Abnett make me tired of my favourite Blood Angel? How does he make Fafnir Rann boring? Even Thorpe didn't do that! Their scenes are tacked on and add nothing, and the generally short chapters make it worse because there's much better snapshots of frenetic action in this very book. My boys have been Ventanus'd.

8/10

 

 

Overall:

 

Look, I'm ecstatic about this book. I think Abnett is halfway through a very happy landing. It respects the audience, it respects Abnett's peers, and it respects this giant mess of a series. Somehow, he's delivering a quality ending to literature's biggest :cuss:storm.

 

But when a book is good, when an author is really good, I get extra frustrated at the EASILY AVOIDABLE missteps. If The End and the Death were one book, even having not read the second half, I bet this would have been Black Library's best, most impressive book, ever. We were right there. WE WERE THIS CLOSE!

 

Instead we have a good book, a book better than it has any right to be, but not a great one.

 

8/10, it's pretty good

 

My Ever-Evolging Siege Ranking:

 

Echoes > Saturnine > Warhawk/Solar War/End and Death Pt 1 > Mortis/Selenar/ Angy Magnus > LatD/First Wall

Edited March 3, 2023 by Roomsky

[DarkChaplain]

Something something Rann and Zephon have models so they had to get their slice of the pie at the end.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Spoiler

The language has more or less reverted back to normal, though that might be due to malcador sitting on the throne. I noticed a line he has about words in of themselves not mattering compared to their symbology, so it's pretty clearly meant to be reflected by his thought process and psychic awareness. But you know what? It's still too clunky. Theres ways of adding symbolism and big word esotericness in while maintaining comprehension, and Wayne June/darkest dungeon narration is the perfect example.

 

Uh, the typhus section where he's taking mortarions orders to heart and really upholding the primarch rings super hollow after....the entire series. Typhus doesn't like mortarion. He thinks he's making the wrong choices and that typhus himself is the Herald of the god. 

 

More bright angel/one/lord. Its annoying. But at least in this sea of new characters wearing the face of old ones, sanguinius is a constant. Him being consistent across his heroism/sacrifice is so important, especially since this is...basically his main appearance in the series.

 

I know alpharius' novel is meant to be a potential lie. But it feels like a colossal waste if it is, and I'm not thrilled by the emperor, malcador, and all the senior custodians referring to Horus as first-found as a result. The structure of alphy's actions and decisions just work so well if it follows him being raised by malcador and pro-imperium; discarding it for "who knows where, when, or why"  doesn't add anything IMO. 

 

What's up with archamus being some master strategist. The guy was an angry assault marine seargent who was promoted to bodyguard leader, and has kinda never been shown to have any sort of theatre command (unlike the previous archamus). Maybe I'm wrong and just forgot stuff from previous books, but this is the first I've read of him doing more than...being a bodyguard...while being in Bhab. But now he's Lord militant and a "grandmaster of war".  Ya wait a second, rann just refered to him as "the old huscarl" in his mind. That ain't the same guy abnett....

 

That's about page 326 now.

 

Edit: added more stuff to the spoilers.

Edited March 3, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Arkangilos]

12 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Horus' weird POV is great;

I agree entirely. 
It also made me feel really bad for him.

 

This books has made me feel bad for just about everyone except the word bearers, who I will never feel bad about. But I definitely feel bad for the Emperor, Malcador, and Horus.

 

Like Horus just seems to think everything is normal and he’s just a regular guy rebelling against the emperor, and doesn’t even recognize everything that he’s become. It’s the perfect way to show true mental instability. 
 

Also

Spoiler

the Emperor knew he would fall, which adds to it in my mind.

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Arkangilos

[SkimaskMohawk]

Alright I finally finished the thing. I'm going to echo roomsky broadly; it's a good book and had the potential to be better. Hopefully my opinion will change with the completion of End and the Death, because obviously it's meant to be read together in one shot, as one complete volume.

 

Which they chose not to do. 

 

So maybe it has to stand on its own, and suffers from an abrupt end and some frankly boring and unnecessary filler. 

 

I'll also distill my greatest criticism into a quote I pulled right from the book. It's from page 449, and see if you can guess what it applies to:

 

Quote

"some new thing wearing an old name"

 

Yes, of course it's about characters. If a character was unfortunate enough to be developed by another competent author, then their characterization will be discarded. They'll have the same name and will go through the motions, but will be fundamentally off. Sometimes the bridging of an arc from another authors works can feel clumsy (though I guess most of that happened in saturnine).

 

Spoiler

I've complained earlier in the thread, but let's compile them a bit:

• Amit cries for how piteous sanguinius looks wounded, and because people got locked out and will die. The same guy who had to be dragged to the sanctum, and famously was part of the most utilitarian, win-at-all-costs, legions. And had no arc to prompt a change.
• Typhus is keen to follow mortarions "commandments" and makes his wishes a big thing.
• Zephon is a cardboard character; there's absolutely nothing about him that's...him. i also dont get how he was left out when he was with sanguinius and Amit...at the gate. 
• Valdor has some really awkward lines with primarchs. Wraights take is definitive.
• Archamus is written about like he's the one from Praetorian of dorn. 
• Similar to valdor, abbadon feels a bit off (same as in saturnine). French and adb have 

 

 

But even with the complaints about the pacing, the word choices, and the characters, the good stuff is really good. He sells a desperate hold out in every book he writes one. His actual abnett cast has some great synergy, and his Horus viewpoints are also great. 

 

7/10 or something.

 

EDIT: Changing the score because End is actually wildly inconsistent with the stakes and the previous books events. "Because magic" is not a justification.

Edited March 4, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Arkangilos]

28 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

The same guy who had to be dragged to the sanctum, and famously was part of the most utilitarian, win-at-all-costs, legions.

I didn’t have a problem with this part. They didn’t have hope of winning at that point, and so he wanted to die out there with the rest, and when he was denied it makes sense that he cried for those who died outside without him. 
Like if they had a chance of winning (from their perspective), I would agree, but since they essentially, as of Echoes, have the “now it’s about hurting them for Guilliman’s revenge” mentality, there is no “it’s necessary for victory”.

[SkimaskMohawk]

55 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I didn’t have a problem with this part. They didn’t have hope of winning at that point, and so he wanted to die out there with the rest, and when he was denied it makes sense that he cried for those who died outside without him. 
Like if they had a chance of winning (from their perspective), I would agree, but since they essentially, as of Echoes, have the “now it’s about hurting them for Guilliman’s revenge” mentality, there is no “it’s necessary for victory”.

 

Doesn't really make sense to me. He wanted to die outside because they didn't have a hope of winning, and is generally hardcore and gung-ho....and then cried because closing the gate means they didn't have anymore hope of winning? And that it feels like a betrayal that forces would be stuck on the other side, unable to retreat? Despite him wanting to be part of just that?

[Roomsky]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

-SNIP-

 

Besides the product placement, I assume Zephon and Rann's presence will be so we can have a loyalists POV when the Blood Angels go berserk later. But, as you say, this is Zephon in name only. Worse, Zephon just had his time in the sun with a very strong soft "ending" for the characters' Siege POV. Really, I think this spot (if used at all, I think the Fragments chapters would have been perfectly adequate to show the BAngle's rampage) should have been Raldoron's because:

• Zephon is was explicitly inside the last bastion
• While the idea is that all astartes can be accidentally callous, Zephon is established to have been bloodthirsty and cruel before his crippling. If he falls to the rage, it's less "shocking" because that's in his character's past.
• Raldoron, meanwhile, has only ever been portrayed as a complete bro
• Raldoron needs more development than "cool dude who kicked Skraivok off a wall"

For that matter, why Rann? I get it, it's the last battle and the end and the death and jovial Rann isn't so jovial any more. But like, that's his whole schtick, why use Rann if not for some gallows humour? If the Fist was going to be this dull, it could have just been Archamus, or even Siggy.

 

Head-scratching all around.

[Lord_Ikka]

I enjoyed it. Regardless of character inconsistencies, which I think is going to happen because of the multiple-authors way SoT/HH was set up, I just like Abnett's writing style and crafting. For me his works never feel like simple bolters-and-blades, gung-ho SM propaganda prose, they feel like a decent sci-fi novel set into the 40k universe. I'm looking forward to the second part/ending for two reasons-

1 It will finally finish the HH series which has gone on for a very, very long time. Removing the HH stuff from BL's lineup will hopefully allow them to branch out and explore some more unique portions of the lore, maybe stuff like the Age of Apostasy or the War of the False Primarch. Maybe even make them start up a coherent and planned-out furthering of the 40k storylines, rather than the slightly inconsistent and janky Dawn of Fire books. 

2 Abnett will be able to finish out the Bequin series, which I'm eagerly awaiting.

 

[Arkangilos]

30 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Doesn't really make sense to me. He wanted to die outside because they didn't have a hope of winning, and is generally hardcore and gung-ho....and then cried because closing the gate means they didn't have anymore hope of winning? And that it feels like a betrayal that forces would be stuck on the other side, unable to retreat? Despite him wanting to be part of just that?

No, they didn’t have hope of winning prior to them shutting the gate. The point is the pragmatism of their actions was always accompanied with the phrase, “But we won.” In this case it is a “but we lost”, and so he doesn’t have the victory to make that sacrifice something he can be ok with. Hence he teared up. There is no victory to make it worth it.
His brothers are dying outside without him, and all he did was delay when he dies.

 

Anyways it doesn’t seem out of character for me. At best it’s what I said, at worst it’s just a moment that even the most hardened people I know have experienced when not allowed to go out to help people.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Arkangilos

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

 

Besides the product placement, I assume Zephon and Rann's presence will be so we can have a loyalists POV when the Blood Angels go berserk later. But, as you say, this is Zephon in name only. Worse, Zephon just had his time in the sun with a very strong soft "ending" for the characters' Siege POV. Really, I think this spot (if used at all, I think the Fragments chapters would have been perfectly adequate to show the BAngle's rampage) should have been Raldoron's because:

• Zephon is was explicitly inside the last bastion
• While the idea is that all astartes can be accidentally callous, Zephon is established to have been bloodthirsty and cruel before his crippling. If he falls to the rage, it's less "shocking" because that's in his character's past.
• Raldoron, meanwhile, has only ever been portrayed as a complete bro
• Raldoron needs more development than "cool dude who kicked Skraivok off a wall"

For that matter, why Rann? I get it, it's the last battle and the end and the death and jovial Rann isn't so jovial any more. But like, that's his whole schtick, why use Rann if not for some gallows humour? If the Fist was going to be this dull, it could have just been Archamus, or even Siggy.

 

Head-scratching all around.

Yea, the filler plot characters are basically all cardboard cutouts with their names (or identification marker, wherever that suddenly appeared from) written on their heads. It doesn't feel like Rann vs Sor Talgron (jeeze, another name and what a pointless waste), or Archamus, or Zephon, or Namahi. Just good guy 1, 2, and 3.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

No, they didn’t have hope of winning prior to them shutting the gate. The point is the pragmatism of their actions was always accompanied with the phrase, “But we won.” In this case it is a “but we lost”, and so he doesn’t have the victory to make that sacrifice something he can be ok with. Hence he teared up. There is no victory to make it worth it.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as particularly dense, but this still makes no sense.

The entire point is to play for time. The Sanctum still has defenders, is unbreached and is basically never shown as being under threat in End. They haven't lost, because they still have a defensive position. If losing the Delphic arch and allowing direct access to the Sanctum didn't signal that all was lost, then closing the gate certainly doesn't either. Because they still have one last layer. 

 

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

His brothers are dying outside without him, and all he did was delay when he dies.

That's really not what the text reads as though. They're described as abandoned to sell their lives to slow the progress to the walls he guards; he looks out at their hell and weeps for them. Call it reading things too literally, but he's just sad they're stuck dying out there and not safe. There's no self reflection about his denied choice, or meaning of their deaths in the face of inevitable defeat. 

But talking about this has actually made me realize something more about the Abnett dissonance. Echoes basically has the palatine zone leveled. Its been bombarded to dust, the bastions have all fallen (except bhab), and then the traitors chase refugee columns to the Sanctum, then have massive helms deep-style attack and breach the Delphic Arch, to the extent Titans managed to make it to the gate.

But people are just fighting all over the place in the Palatine zone, with huge refugee columns still out and about, and not-insignificant defences being mounted....in already scoured areas? If the gate is closed, the via aquila, gilded walk, and grand processional was in enemy hands from the middle of the last book, and certainly by the end when they attacked the delphic battlements...

 

 

It feels very out of sequence, made worse by the low pressure on the sanctum proper. And I get that there's a literal scene with Loken that mentions this very thing. But if you have a rising action to the climax, and then just rewind and pause the tension bleeds out. Does it matter if the ground was lost if Loken can appear at the via aquila, or Lions Gate, or the Hall of Leng? I'm sorry but the whole point of the siege was defenders desperately hold out to protect the throne room; those were the stakes. Coming in at the last book and saying "corporeal time doesn't matter, the clock is stopped at a minute to midnight and the traitors can't seal the deal on the sanctum now; the actual stakes is stopping Horus turning into a god and consuming humanity" isn't...what i wanted. It's not what the heresy or the siege has built up towards. 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Moonreaper666]

51 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

No, they didn’t have hope of winning prior to them shutting the gate. The point is the pragmatism of their actions was always accompanied with the phrase, “But we won.” In this case it is a “but we lost”, and so he doesn’t have the victory to make that sacrifice something he can be ok with. Hence he teared up. There is no victory to make it worth it.
His brothers are dying outside without him, and all he did was delay when he dies.

 

Post-Heresy, Chapter Master Amit murders a woman he saved for being weak (I think) so this breaking down moment is consistent towards the path of the Flesh Tearers Chapter

 

The Space Wolves have postive relations with the Blood Angels. Not so much with the Flesh Tearers when one fight took a lot of honor from both sides (Battle of Honour's End)

 

The Siege broke down the unity and cohesion the Blood Angels Legion had. 10k years later the various Chapters don't foster good relations with each other

 

Unlike the Sons of Horus whom are reborn in black the Sons of Sanginius continued to be broken until Guilliman came back

[Nagashsnee]

@SkimaskMohawk   

 

Spoiler

The book opens with Dorn, a sizable element of the command staff and the fists legion back in the inner palace having apparently escaped the Fall of Bhad (which is under siege and surrounded as of Echoes).  If you are looking at logical continuation of the tactical situation you aint going to get it here.  Once they yadda yadda away something like that then you just gotta accept that direct continuation of the warzone was not a priority, 

 

 

Spoiler aside i 100% agree with you, the sense of dread, of it all crumbling down, of they are ALREADY in the last walls Echoes leaves us with is non existent here. Heck Rann and Zephon are if anything attacking not defending. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

It's not what the heresy or the siege has built up towards. 

 

Or... HAS IT?

 

Spoiler

Don't you remember all the build-up we had for this 'Dark King'? Don't you remember all the foreshadowing and build-up for Erda, where it all suddenly clicked into place and we realised what had been in the shadows all that time? Don't you recall how Horus' arc through Wolfsbane and Slaves to Darkness and, heck, through the whole Siege has been a shell corroding from the power of the Pantheon it can't contain, just a vehicle to get that bloated strength into contact with the Emperor to destroy him - and how cunningly it was laced throughout that, actually, he was just pretending?

 

This is what 'Abnettverse' means. It means rolling back the work of other authors, it means new concepts and pet characters coming in at the final hour to take the stage. It means 'hey, I have this sweet idea that I'm going to write about, and the work of others and the setting in general be damned'. And for whatever reason, he's just allowed to roll with it, even if it pulls the rug out from the long-established narrative in favour of... whatever, wherever he's going. Forget all that other lame stuff. It's all Abnett now. Whether you like it or not.

[Corinthus]

So what do you guys think about Siggy? He doesn’t get mentioned in Vol.1. Is he supposed to be in the IF assault party or is he in a room of the Sanctum waiting for a special scene? The imperials outside the wall are under Archamus and Rann’s command. No word of Sigismund whereabouts after his rampage.

 

Also, Oll and the lads have to reach the Spirit (via knife obviously) but Erebus must be close and certainly inside the Sanctum at this point. Are we expecting any Lorgar’s shenanigans at this point?

[lansalt]

Yeah, Sigismund not being mentioned as part of the assault was strange to me. Are we supposed to believe that his words to Abbaddon about how Horus died "weeping and ashamed" in the 40k Black Legion books were a second hand story? It doesn't seem like him.

It's also strange how despite both ADB and Abnett talking about working together, there are several continuity problems between their books.

[Matcap86]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

But talking about this has actually made me realize something more about the Abnett dissonance. Echoes basically has the palatine zone leveled. Its been bombarded to dust, the bastions have all fallen (except bhab), and then the traitors chase refugee columns to the Sanctum, then have massive helms deep-style attack and breach the Delphic Arch, to the extent Titans managed to make it to the gate.

But people are just fighting all over the place in the Palatine zone, with huge refugee columns still out and about, and not-insignificant defences being mounted....in already scoured areas? If the gate is closed, the via aquila, gilded walk, and grand processional was in enemy hands from the middle of the last book, and certainly by the end when they attacked the delphic battlements...

 

 

It feels very out of sequence, made worse by the low pressure on the sanctum proper. 

 

 

 

On this point, the traitor advance doesn't mean that they occupy those areas completely and have control over them. It means the loyalists lost control over them.

So not every square mile is covered and guarded by traitor forces (there's no central command to facilitate that anymore), those forces are ebbing and flowing towards where resistance and fighting pops up.

Having a thrust at the eternity gate doesn't mean that 360 degrees around the sanctum everything is gone and captured. It just means they broke through and are threatening those areas, bypassing Bhab, which falls at a later point. I imagine the end of Echoes to look something like this when looking at "area control":

Edited March 4, 2023 by matcap86

[Corinthus]

8 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Post-Heresy, Chapter Master Amit murders a woman he saved for being weak (I think) so this breaking down moment is consistent towards the path of the Flesh Tearers Chapter

 

The Space Wolves have postive relations with the Blood Angels. Not so much with the Flesh Tearers when one fight took a lot of honor from both sides (Battle of Honour's End)

 

The Siege broke down the unity and cohesion the Blood Angels Legion had. 10k years later the various Chapters don't foster good relations with each other

 

Unlike the Sons of Horus whom are reborn in black the Sons of Sanginius continued to be broken until Guilliman came back

 

mmmm

 

There are two books that explicitly tell the story of how the Sons of Horus barely exist as group, even less as a Legion; and how Abaddon has to kill his way through to build a new army (Black Legion) from renegades of other Legions based in the assumption that Horus was weak and so were the Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus.

 

So it's not like the Black Legion is the old time rock band reunion of ex-Sons of Horus in the slightless.

 

I would even argue that the Codex Blood Angels and successors are the most cohesive "almost-Legion" after the Imperial Fists, given their shared traits of Black Rage and Red Thirst.