'Siege of Terra - The End and the Death Volume 1' by Dan Abnett

[Fedor]

I'm just disappointed we've not had extensive scenes of Horus debating a multitude of topics with the skull of Ferrus.

 

For the audio version, the scene where husk meatpuppet Horus reveals his true power level better have the initial instrumental theme from Morricone's Navajo Joe suddenly kick in.

[wecanhaveallthree]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

I couldnt say. I posted that and took my dog for a long walk and just ruminated on the absolutely missed opportunity of what the series could have been. I cared too much, and BL frittered away all the potential.

 

Oh well, 1 book to go.

 

One book to go so far. 

[caladancid]

6 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

As somebody who could write another five thousand words about why TUE sucked and how Imperium Secundus was completely wasted due to both the way it was set up and corporate interference and authors/editors reacting to audience feedback and aborting the whole damn thing...

 

Holy mother Erda, what the hell? How is that clusterfrak of a novel even anywhere close to the top ten of the Heresy's 54 numbered entires, even before the Siege, or heck, Primarchs & Characters, come into play?! It's got Vulkan going insane and then full hulk for no good reason outside of needing to be shelved for an indeterminate amount of time, just to then get fridged again. It had Curze outplaying everyone even when it came to pretty straight duels. It's had the worst of the Perpetuals going Primarch hunting. It had the Lion do a 180 on why he even came to Macragge - he was going to put a fist in Guilliman's face, last we saw him! It had Curze being spirited away with warp bs, just to still be basically around the corner. The freakin' premise of the entire novel almost didn't happen at all, being relegated to the final pages of the book. Sanguinius never received any development at all, despite being the poster boy both of the novel and Imperium Secundus. We're told "yeah, new Emp has got to be him!" but in no way, shape or form does the book justify this.

 

It literally did the typical Abnett thing and shoved the stuff the novel was supposedly about into the deepest, darkest corner and instead tell a way different story. Heck, he even managed to throw in his Alpha Legion almost assassinating Guilliman by way of a false Aeonid Thiel - a character that was last seen entering orbit and being told that Imperium Secundus was being prepped.

 

Imperium Secundus was prepped as far back as Age of Darkness, book 16! And Abnett, 11? books later went and had a marvel heroes brawl out of the novel that was supposed to define the whole thing and establish this entire arc.

 

Just how does a book that messy make the top 10?

 

Not that TUE was a great novel but its strange to get this worked up about it in a series where you have a book like say Ruinstorm or Damnation of Pythos, or even the amazingly (somehow) bland Titandeath. It means to me that its an overreaction to an author you have chosen to dislike in a disproportionate manner to the actual alleged offense, others don't feel like way and probably don't want to have a weird emoji dropped and be ranted at.

 

Your description of the "typical Abnett thing" is just wrong. He has written a lot of Warhammer novels. It helps to read the whole book or body of work rather than make assumptions. 

 

I did finish this novel and thought it was pretty good. I think an 8/10 is fair, where I would rate Saturnine a 10/10.

[phandaal]

30 minutes ago, caladancid said:

others don't feel like way and probably don't want to have a weird emoji dropped and be ranted at.

 

Uh oh. I don't want to scare you, but you are in the danger zone to have someone make a grumpy, sad, or maybe even confused face at you.

 

Edit: too late... Rest in peace.

Edited March 5, 2023 by phandaal

[SkimaskMohawk]

51 minutes ago, caladancid said:

 

Not that TUE was a great novel but its strange to get this worked up about it in a series where you have a book like say Ruinstorm or Damnation of Pythos, or even the amazingly (somehow) bland Titandeath. It means to me that its an overreaction to an author you have chosen to dislike in a disproportionate manner to the actual alleged offense, others don't feel like way and probably don't want to have a weird emoji dropped and be ranted at.

 

Your description of the "typical Abnett thing" is just wrong. He has written a lot of Warhammer novels. It helps to read the whole book or body of work rather than make assumptions. 

 

I did finish this novel and thought it was pretty good. I think an 8/10 is fair, where I would rate Saturnine a 10/10.

 

I mean, he was responding to someone who claimed it was the best novel of the Heresy lol. 

[Moonreaper666]

4 hours ago, Fedor said:

I'm just disappointed we've not had extensive scenes of Horus debating a multitude of topics with the skull of Ferrus.

 

For the audio version, the scene where husk meatpuppet Horus reveals his true power level better have the initial instrumental theme from Morricone's Navajo Joe suddenly kick in.

 

The Transformers Netflix trilogy had Megatron do that with the head of Ultra-Magnus so Dan probably wanted to avoid that cliche

 

 Horus should have waited for two reasons

 

Spoiler

Thanks to Warp shenanigans those 9 hours become endless time on Terra. The Traitors and Daemons have all the time and numbers in the world to kill all the Loyalists and the Emperor

 

The guns of the Lion Gate Spaceport can't hit an unshielded Vengeful Spirit so neither can Guilliman's fleet

 

If Guilliman is stupid enough to teleport inside the VS, Horus uses his mind powers to kill him. Guilliman's death breaks the Ultramarines

 

 

 

[DarkChaplain]

3 hours ago, caladancid said:

 

Not that TUE was a great novel but its strange to get this worked up about it in a series where you have a book like say Ruinstorm or Damnation of Pythos, or even the amazingly (somehow) bland Titandeath.

  

Funnily enough, I clearly enjoyed all three of those, particularly Pythos and Titandeath. And thematically, Ruinstorm was pretty strong and built on the foundations of other authors' works pretty well.

 

3 hours ago, caladancid said:

It means to me that its an overreaction to an author you have chosen to dislike in a disproportionate manner to the actual alleged offense, others don't feel like way and probably don't want to have a weird emoji dropped and be ranted at.

 

There's this weird alleged "Abnett hate" again, huh? It's still not a thing. TUE is simply a terrible book. And I wasn't lying, I've got unwritten essays about the entire arc lying about somewhere on my hard drive.

That reaction is also to be seen in the context of a repeated instance of pure, let me call it "Abnett fanboyism", as in "he can do no wrong". Check the post history and you might see what I'm referring to.

 

3 hours ago, caladancid said:

Your description of the "typical Abnett thing" is just wrong. He has written a lot of Warhammer novels. It helps to read the whole book or body of work rather than make assumptions.

 

I mean.... I've read most of Abnett's books and have owned a bunch of them in old omnibus copies for nearly 15 years. The stuff of his that I haven't worked through yet are Sabbat Crusade/GG-related. And I suppose Gilead. Heck, I even read Darkblade, which he co-authored with Mike Lee.

In other words: I know how Abnett writes. I've read his stuff for well over a decade. I'll never not recommend Eisenhorn as the go-to starter omnibus for newcomers; heck, I even had ex girlfriends who ended up loving those books, because they're just that good even outside the 40k context.

I think I'm allowed to comment and describe his writing at this point.

 

  

3 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Uh oh. I don't want to scare you, but you are in the danger zone to have someone make a grumpy, sad, or maybe even confused face at you.

 

Edit: too late... Rest in peace.

 

Wasn't me!

Edited March 5, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[drooling blood]

The short, death chapters, shouldve been a thing, interspersed through out the whole series.

Horus and Sangy, have for some reason, been relegated to nothingness. Though sang is making a come back.

The exploding kid that turns into Horus, was dumb :cuss:.

Sangy and his emp meeting, asking why, was never explored enough.

[grailkeeper]

https://www.trackofwords.com/2023/03/04/rapid-fire-dan-abnett-talks-the-end-and-the-death-volume-1/

 

Interview with Dan Abnett about how he wrote The End and the Death. He Implies it might be more than 3 books.

 

Also not seen it referred to as TEATD before. That acronym makes me.. uncomfortable. 

[Bobss]

Some good discussion going on here

 

A few thoughts:

- I totally agree with the guy saying Echoes was a particularly selfish outing. It was. Like, it really was, and I do think ADB must've laid his cards out on the table to the other guys about this before writing. That being said, Echoes is dripping with atmosphere, shifting the Siege on in a meaningful way and does a wonderful job of finding an appropriate place to focus its narrative among all of the turmoil of the Inner Sanctum (though the Magnus stuff does jar against this). To have Dan run parts of this back is a bit meh. I do want to make a point, however, that comparing Warhawk to Echoes really does show just how damn good a writer Chris Wraight is. Not only was he able to conclude his own White Scars arc brilliantly, but he also accepted and developed other plot threads brilliantly. Everything in that book from Sigismund lawnmowing traitors to Valdor fighting demonic candles in the Palace's crevices to Fo's reminisces on Unity to Keeler hiding from Iron Warriors among the rubble. All of it, written to a damn good standard. ADB meanwhile sticks to his own toys, possibly somewhat due to their familiarity. Chris, for me, really is BL's best and brightest, and only Abnett's extremely well-read and somewhat disloyal writing can sometimes, sometimes beat this. Go Chris

- I reread Saturnine last year and debated making a ''Saturnine: how good is it REALLY?'' thread but didn't because sometimes negativity doesn't need to be said. However, since we're all getting at it, let's go boys. Despite its myriad successes there are some seriously OOC moments for several characters, most notably the Khan, Valdor and Malcador imo. Not Abaddon though, I thought he was great lol. Also, there are some serious inconsistencies in scale which rarely get brought up. Dan makes a point to explain how huge the IV Legion's assault on Gorgon Bar is, yet the defence of the Eternity Wall Spaceport is pathetic (despite is being THE plot thread of the book that it needs to be defended properly for the Saturnine Gambit to work). It's a great book, which followed two 'alright' outings and proceeded a somewhat confused book in Mortis, but now that Echoes and especially Warhawk exist, I could do without the Saturnine kool-aid, especially with similar problems popping up in TEATD

- Despite both of the above points I actually really enjoy how these 9-10 books have been written by different authors. I know this is odd coming from a guy who would bash Guy Haley in every post 2-3 years ago, but I genuinely mean it. Maybe this is because GW's canon policy is so utterly garbage that I just don't care at this point whether there's 16 different versions of Vulkan vs Magnus or whether a magic moon language is being brought in last minute. I have some time off work right now and I'm rereading Solar War for like, idk, the 4th time now and I can't wait to tuck into TLATD's more straightforward style. Then Gav Thorpe who tells us exactly how many tanks Perturabo brought to besiege the Lion's Gate Spaceport. Then Saturnine with Camba Diaz's visceral stream of consciousness only Abnett would think to pen. Then Mortis, which is like trying to find enjoyment during a trip to a relative's house... Then Warhawk, which does, just, everything right. Then Echoes, which hones in on a very small cast of characters with that lovely ADB style which feels like true 2000s-era 40k. Then back to Dan with his experimental style, that breaks convention and straight up gives us the Emperor going ham. If this is the last 40k series I bother to read and reread once every 5 years then I'm adequately content

Edited March 5, 2023 by Bobss

[Bobss]

12 minutes ago, grailkeeper said:

https://www.trackofwords.com/2023/03/04/rapid-fire-dan-abnett-talks-the-end-and-the-death-volume-1/

 

Interview with Dan Abnett about how he wrote The End and the Death. He Implies it might be more than 3 books.

 

Also not seen it referred to as TEATD before. That acronym makes me.. uncomfortable. 

 

The obvious problem with this is that if the fInAl BoOk is 4 volumes long, I could've done with a second Chris Wraight book or even a second Guy Haley book (call me crazy, I mean it). Dan's great, but I don't want him writing half the Siege. Yes, beaming up to the VS, everything that occurs on board the VS and beaming down from the VS is huge, but this should've been planned for. People like me since 2019-2020 have been theorising just how much of the post-finale and Emperor's entombment would actually be covered in prose. FRANKLY, I was hoping the final book would be an anthology (call me crazy, I mean it) with all 6 authors contributing something

[System Sound]

Wild idea, but couldn't the "Siege" as a series end in volume 2, but the "scouring begin in volume 3?

[wecanhaveallthree]

1 hour ago, grailkeeper said:

Also not seen it referred to as TEATD before. That acronym makes me.. uncomfortable. 

 

For something that's putting the squeeze on the customer, really milking them for all they're worth, it feels rather appropriate, no?

 

Quote

Wild idea, but couldn't the "Siege" as a series end in volume 2, but the "scouring begin in volume 3?

 

It feels almost guaranteed that there'll be a denouement into the absolutely inevitable Scouring series. I would not be at all surprised, especially as 'old lore' has the Emperor still somewhat lucid once he's placed on the Throne. His growing distance and silence (and the growing laughter of thirsting gods) would be an excellent way to end one series and dovetail into the next, with the Loyalists both vengeful beyond compare - and in incomparable grief, loss and lacking in all direction.

Edited March 5, 2023 by wecanhaveallthree

[DukeLeto69]

Bit fractious in this here thread ain’t it folks!

 

May as well throw in my two pence.

 

As someone who believes Abnett is the best writer working for BL (I am not counting Fehervari as he is...different), I think TUE is awful. It was such a let down for what should have been an intriguing addition to the HH lore. It was also tonally completely off and showed the drawback of folks like Abnett working so extensively in other IPs (thinking Swallow here too). Concepts and tone bleed across that should not be present in the 40k setting.

 

Saying that, I am more forgiving than some fraters on here when it comes to the lore and I head cannon a lot. So the actual appeal of Abnett is less his “lore adherence” and just the fact he is so damn readable. Almost everything he has written for BL is a pleasure to read and for me that places him head and shoulders above everyone else.

 

Abnett dominates my top 20 BL novels but ADB, Wraight, and Farrer feature strongly too (as I said Fehervari is in a parallel universe).

 

That doesn’t mean he is infallible (see comment on TUE) and a couple of his novels suffer from rushed endings (though not all as has become the trope). But for me he is just generally and consistently better than everyone else.

[Scribe]

If he bloated this out past 2 books...Gods forbid FOUR, I dont want to hear anything about anyone else being self indulgent ever again.

[Cactus]

"To be concluded in volume II" had better be accurate. My bookcase can only take one more DAbnett doorstopper.

 

[Corinthus]

I don't get the pessimism. Would you guys rather have the story end with a single novel narrating the five things we always knew about the end of the Heresy and nothing else? Because I much prefer Abnett going big and bold for the closing of such a series. It's been 60 books, almost two decades and, although the quality has varied along the way, it was quite a journey. In my case, I would have been out of the setting a long time ago when I stopped painting minis if not for Abnett, the Gaunt's Ghosts and the Heresy novels.

 

The closing chapters of the foundational myth of the setting deserve a grand and ambitious effort. It may not satisfy everyone (it never does) but I don't think anyone has better qualifications than Abnett to go for it.

 

It's been a long journey to get here and whatever happens in the end, I don't feel miserable for what it could have been but rather happy for the great memories (and the friends made along the way, of course).

 

 

 

 

[Scribe]

7 minutes ago, Corinthus said:

Would you guys rather have the story end with a single novel narrating the five things we always knew about the end of the Heresy and nothing else?

 

Yes.

[Roomsky]

21 minutes ago, Corinthus said:

I don't get the pessimism. Would you guys rather have the story end with a single novel narrating the five things we always knew about the end of the Heresy and nothing else? Because I much prefer Abnett going big and bold for the closing of such a series. It's been 60 books, almost two decades and, although the quality has varied along the way, it was quite a journey. In my case, I would have been out of the setting a long time ago when I stopped painting minis if not for Abnett, the Gaunt's Ghosts and the Heresy novels.

 

The closing chapters of the foundational myth of the setting deserve a grand and ambitious effort. It may not satisfy everyone (it never does) but I don't think anyone has better qualifications than Abnett to go for it.

 

It's been a long journey to get here and whatever happens in the end, I don't feel miserable for what it could have been but rather happy for the great memories (and the friends made along the way, of course).

 

 

I think the first half of this book demonstrates that Abnett has the talent and ability to hit the 5 beats we know well AND add a bunch of extra stuff within a single book. There's a limit to expanding the fluff before it starts to feel like padding, as it did for me.

[Corinthus]

Then we disagree. I don't see the point of making a Codex excerpt of something that originally was barely five sentences. To each their own.

[Nagashsnee]

I thought 3 books was taking us for a ride, but 4? 

 

Imagine being the other siege authors, doing your job trimming you work, trying to get it in the alloted wordcount. Sure your pet chapter would have been nice but it just doesnt fit. Plus the suits already PUBLICLY said 8 books so what can you do.

 

Oh Dan wrote too much and we cant rush the ending, well its not REALLY 2 books, just part 1 and 2....oh wait Dan said feth it and wrote his book into 4 books? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, Corinthus said:

Then we disagree. I don't see the point of making a Codex excerpt of something that originally was barely five sentences. To each their own.

 

The premise you are presenting is false.

 

The HH as Origin Myth stood on its own. The IA articles began fleshing things out. The FW Black Books blew the doors off.

 

I'm going to walk away before I start ranting, but few wanted a better HH story, than the folks on this board. We didnt get it. Thats just how it goes I guess, but the HH itself? It could have been amazing.

 

[Nagashsnee]

3 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

The premise you are presenting is false.

 

The HH as Origin Myth stood on its own. The IA articles began fleshing things out. The FW Black Books blew the doors off.

 

I'm going to walk away before I start ranting, but few wanted a better HH story, than the folks on this board. We didnt get it. Thats just how it goes I guess, but the HH itself? It could have been amazing.

 

Preach it ! 

[tgcleric]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Yes.

Why even read a book then?

 

Also a good way to keep the already small readership even smaller. 

[Nagashsnee]

12 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

Why even read a book then?

 

Also a good way to keep the already small readership even smaller. 

You really need someone to explain the difference between a 3 page WD article and a 500 book?