Now that (Most of) the rules are out there, what do you think of Desolators?

[Orange Knight]

A unit of 10 Hellblasters can have 30 Str7 Ap-4 Damage 2 shots at 24" range.

 

It's hard to say what kind of a price tag a unit like this should have. If they were a bit cheaper they would probably be better than any of the Devastator variants.

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Faling to take a deeper dive on the Hellblasters has thrown INFANTRY heavy weapons squads out of whack such that only Devs and Erads are really attractively priced I'd guess. 

 

Sad but true. In all likelihood we will have to wait for the 10th edition codex before there is even a chance of this lot getting balanced properly. 

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

They weren't piecemeal if you knew where to look. Valrak dropped them as a whole.

 

True but not everyone paid much attention to the rumours as they were still just rumours at that point. Now we have the rules and stats confirmed in full as well as the points cost so we can make an objective assessment of how these guys stack up against the competition. As Tacticus points out, they are definitely not "must-haves" by any stretch. The long range and indirect-fire bring some things Primaris have been lacking on infantry models up to the this point but not at a price point that makes them compelling.

[The Unseen]

I'm still wondering why the hell they have missile launchers with only 1 ammo type. You know, the reason to use missiles over say, a dedicated anti-tank weapon like a lascannon, which *should* be rocking 1 higher str, same AP and damage as the Superkrak. The whole point of missile launchers in 40k is varied ammo profiles, and rather than actually fix how underpowered they've been all edition, being bad at everything rather than ok at everything, especially when MM are right there, they've just made them a side-grade lascannon (lower strength but higher average and minimum damage) 

 

The indirect fire mode is so pitiful that it won't even be worth rolling it except against the chaffiest of chaff, other than the sarges weapon, which is fine, nobody wants indirect to actually be good anyway. 

 

All in all it's another new primaris unit that exists, and I'm mostly happy that they arent powerful/undercosted because it means I won't have to see the terrible models very often. 

I'm not a huge fan of the tacticool phobos stuff but can't deny that it's still an improvement on the no-neck 75% jaw old scout minis, but this is the first primaris release that just look awful, and aren't salvageable without some extensive rework. I thought the worst was going to be Inceptors with their jump pack skates.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

32 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

True but not everyone paid much attention to the rumours as they were still just rumours at that point. 

 

How many times are the goalposts going to be moved? First it was "Now that the rules are OUT THERE" (title of the thread). Then it was "well, the rules were OUT THERE, but they were piecemeal." And now it's "Well, the rules were out there in full, but they were only rumors" (even though Valrak read them straight from the playtest doc he was sent).

 

The rules were out there... unless you're reliant on "Day late and a hundred dollars short" sites like Spikey Bits.

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Lord Nord

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

A unit of 10 Hellblasters can have 30 Str7 Ap-4 Damage 2 shots at 24" range.

 

It's hard to say what kind of a price tag a unit like this should have. If they were a bit cheaper they would probably be better than any of the Devastator variants.

23 PPM.  Devs are 5 points more than Tacs, Hellblasters should be 5 more than Intercessors.  Well technically probably 24PPM and Intercessors should bump to 19. 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Lord Nord said:

 

How many times are the goalposts going to be moved? First it was "Now that the rules are OUT THERE" (title of the thread). Then it was "well, the rules were OUT THERE, but they were piecemeal." And now it's "Well, the rules were out there in full, but they were only rumors" (even though Valrak read them straight from the playtest doc he was sent).

 

The rules were out there... unless you're reliant on "Day late and a hundred dollars short" sites like Spikey Bits.

 

They weren't "out there"  Valrak had half, and someone else had the other half.  We knew there were four-ish different weapon profiles, but not how they combined/merged into the unit, or who had what where.   I figured out the underslung rotary barrel was the indirect launcher, and the missiles on top were the missiles after reading both leaks, but nobody knew that for sure - it took intuition and a guess that easily could have been wrong.   Nobody knew for sure if they had one gun, two guns or which went with what.

 

Quote

I'm still wondering why the hell they have missile launchers with only 1 ammo type. You know, the reason to use missiles over say, a dedicated anti-tank weapon like a lascannon, which *should* be rocking 1 higher str, same AP and damage as the Superkrak. The whole point of missile launchers in 40k is varied ammo profiles, and rather than actually fix how underpowered they've been all edition, being bad at everything rather than ok at everything, especially when MM are right there, they've just made them a side-grade lascannon (lower strength but higher average and minimum damage) 

 

The indirect fire mode is so pitiful that it won't even be worth rolling it except against the chaffiest of chaff, other than the sarges weapon, which is fine, nobody wants indirect to actually be good anyway. 

 

All in all it's another new primaris unit that exists, and I'm mostly happy that they arent powerful/undercosted because it means I won't have to see the terrible models very often. 

I'm not a huge fan of the tacticool phobos stuff but can't deny that it's still an improvement on the no-neck 75% jaw old scout minis, but this is the first primaris release that just look awful, and aren't salvageable without some extensive rework. I thought the worst was going to be Inceptors with their jump pack skates.

They're making you pick one missile because that's the way Primaris are being designed.  All uniform wargear on a specific threatband.   Most people will take the SuperKrak rather than double up on the S4 -1 D1 area.   But most people pick up the Aggressors in Boltstorm over Flamestorm.   1 Indirect is pitiful, but 5 or 10 of them start to add up.   But again at 35PPM not fast enough.  I'd love to see them use Dev's as a guide.  Tacs are X, Devs are X+5, so non-gravis Heavy Weapon Infantry can be Intercessors (Or Infiltrators for the Eliminators) +5.  Eliminators already are, but should be opened up to 5-10 instead of 3 and only 3.  You make Hellblasters 24 (and bump Intercessors to 19 for 1 point over Tacs for +1A), Eliminators 25 (They already are) and 5-10, and Desolators 24-25 and you'll (probably) start seeing Primaris Heavy Weapons other than Eradicators. 

[Orange Knight]

28 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

23 PPM.  Devs are 5 points more than Tacs, Hellblasters should be 5 more than Intercessors.  Well technically probably 24PPM and Intercessors should bump to 19. 

 

I think this shows how comical the latest FAQ and Errata are.

 

You're right. For consistency they should indeed be 5 points more.

 

5 points more to vastly increase the damage potential in a game that doesn't even require troops currently.

[Minsc]

Desolators and Hellblasters are both completely pointless with Devastators and Combi-Plasma Sternguard in the game.

They both need a big pointreduction before I'd consider fielding them.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Minsc said:

Desolators and Hellblasters are both completely pointless with Devastators and Combi-Plasma Sternguard in the game.

They both need a big pointreduction before I'd consider fielding them.

They're not pointless.  I was hoping for more out of the Desolators to replace the Eradicators (which are more of a cross over for Desos than Hellblasters or SG Bombs) 

 

They don't need to be cheaper/better than SG bombs or Devs, but they need to be in the same ballpark. 

[Malakithe]

With how high the cost of heavy weapon infantry is im getting more convinced to take storm speeders or gladiators 

[Orange Knight]

8 hours ago, Minsc said:

Desolators and Hellblasters are both completely pointless with Devastators and Combi-Plasma Sternguard in the game.

They both need a big pointreduction before I'd consider fielding them.

 

Until recently Sternguard were pretty useless. It's only because of free wargear that they have begun to stand out so much.

 

Right now we are playing a game with power levels in real terms, so units that have access to lots of upgrades gained the biggest advantage. 

 

As of right now, this moment, the Desolators aren't as competitive as units with free upgrades.

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Malakithe said:

With how high the cost of heavy weapon infantry is im getting more convinced to take storm speeders or gladiators 

That's part of what they're going for.   But not all HEAVY weapon infantry is improperly costed.  Erads and Devs aren't bad.  Eliminators in the right scenarios (Say 5 model Combat Squads from Deathwatch) can also do well. 

[Tacitus]

53 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Until recently Sternguard were pretty useless. It's only because of free wargear that they have begun to stand out so much.

 

Right now we are playing a game with power levels in real terms, so units that have access to lots of upgrades gained the biggest advantage. 

 

As of right now, this moment, the Desolators aren't as competitive as units with free upgrades.

I'm not that sold on Sternguard.  Or overrating the "free upgrades".  A Sternguard sacrificial Pod Bomb is a lot of points to sacrifice.  By the time you've bought at least 5 and the pod, you're well on your way to Erads. 

 

Vanguard Vets have access to lots of upgrades and don't get them for free, nor did they gain the biggest advantage.  Company Vets were also left out. 

 

As near as I can tell Desolators DO have free upgrades.  Its their PPM that's too high.

[Orange Knight]

Yes, their weapon is part of the cost.

It's not optional, so it's included in the cost per model, otherwise they'll be priced similar to other units.

 

Vanguard Veterans are good because they offer a unique role in the codex:  Flying, fast moving, high impact assault unit.

For the same reason that a jump pack Captain is so good. Mobility with punch will always be popular in any faction in 40k.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I tend to play the Rule of Cool in reverse -- it needs to look cool in my eyes before I start looking for a good way to use it.  And regardless of paint job and photoshop-conversions to date, I think the Desos look like garbage so I will not be buying much less fielding them.

[CCE1981]

Point values have been updated-ish, Lieutenant is Munitorum Field Manual, Brutalis and Desolators are unchanged, Heavy Intercessors are not mentioned.  Unless some huge community outlash comes expect that to be the points value until the 10e codex.

[XeonDragon]

On 2/28/2023 at 9:58 PM, Orange Knight said:

A unit of 10 Hellblasters can have 30 Str7 Ap-4 Damage 2 shots at 24" range.

 

It's hard to say what kind of a price tag a unit like this should have. If they were a bit cheaper they would probably be better than any of the Devastator variants.

 

I think they should have a similar cost to sternguard veterans, but a tad higher because whilst sternguard can take heavy weapons, basically a 10-man squad of sternguard with combi-plasma would:

 

• do slightly less overall damage to hellblasters within rapid fire range do to lack of AP (-3 vs -4 base) and
• could not take advantage of trans-human physiology. 

So, to my mind at least, the question is: how much is the extra range of the hellblasters RF gun, the availability of an assault gun and the increased strength (S8 vs S7) and reliability (1 shot vs D3 shots) of the heavy variety worth? 

 

Assuming sternguard continue to get free war-gear, I'd say maybe at 22-25 points per model, a squad of hellblasters is starting to look viable compared to sternguard or even devastators. If sternguard end up having to pay for their combi and heavy weapons, then maybe at 1-2 points more per the cost of a sternguard model equipped with a combi-plasma do they become a viable competitor. 

[MegaVolt87]

On 3/3/2023 at 4:39 PM, Malakithe said:

With how high the cost of heavy weapon infantry is im getting more convinced to take storm speeders or gladiators 

 

No way, I would still take these or primaris dreadnaughts. Vehicles that are not walkers are bad in 9th. I imagine everyone is taking the krak missiles, primaris have a lot of dice bucket shooting options already, so the frag missile is redundant. Indirect is meh, probably fire it off at units blow strength an opponent is hiding to avoid a squad wipe is probably the best use of the indirect fire. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by MegaVolt87

[Medicinal Carrots]

They seem pretty meh to me overall. I'd rather take melta for hitting hard targets, I'd rather take plasma for medium targets, I'd rather not take up a heavy support slot for massed S4 D1 when I could get more shots for basically the same cost with 2 squads of Intercessors, and they lack the versatility of choice missiles have had historically. If you could choose the missiles for each shot, I think they'd have a place and be what missile Devs should be. As is, meh.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Medicinal Carrots

[Spyros]

I haven't seen it being mentioned, so here's my take.

Firstly, the Castellan launcher doesn't HAVE to be fired indirectly, it's just an additional function

The Castellan launcher and the Super Krak/Frag launcher are two distinct entries in the datasheet. Thus they are not like a combi-weapon.

If you take the Super-Krak option then it's almost like having both frag and krak missiles.

 

So in the shooting face the squad can fire both weapons, the Super-Krak against an armoured target and the Castellan against infantry.

I agree that the cost makes me skeptical but doesn't the fact that you can fire all weapons make them interesting, at the very least?

 

 

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, Spyros said:

I agree that the cost makes me skeptical but doesn't the fact that you can fire all weapons make them interesting, at the very least?

 

Yes, the volume of fire they can put out is their main selling point with indirect fire being the second. The problem is that the quality of the shooting is not good enough for the price being charged IMHO. 

 

For the same points as 10 Desolators, you can buy 2x5 Devastators and a Whirlwind which provide similar firepower but a lot more wounds and also provides access to the stratagem for shutting down overwatch. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think the main issue is they're trying to do, and you have to pay for, two distinct roles with their loadout. They have the direct fire missile, which is fine, but then that indirect castellan launcher. If you want them shooting the direct fire weapon, the indirect fire is worthless as indirect. If you want them shooting indirect, their main armament is a waste. In my opinion, is a bit of a departure from the more focused role most primaris units have, and not in a good way.

[Spyros]

I thought that having the indirect fire rule doesn't mean it's obligatory. You can fire it directly too. 

Isn't it so?

 

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

I think the main issue is they're trying to do, and you have to pay for, two distinct roles with their loadout. They have the direct fire missile, which is fine, but then that indirect castellan launcher. If you want them shooting the direct fire weapon, the indirect fire is worthless as indirect. If you want them shooting indirect, their main armament is a waste. In my opinion, is a bit of a departure from the more focused role most primaris units have, and not in a good way.

 

I don't think this is quite the case. They are too expensive to hide out of LOS and waste their primary armament. I see their indirect fire mode as a bonus and a way to way to take out small, fragile units that a lot of armies like to hide away for points scoring, be that Engage on All Fronts, taking Objectives or just screening out your reserves. The indirect fire averages 10 S4 AP-1 shots and 3.5 S6 Ap-1 2D attacks from the Sergeant. On average that will only kill around 1 MEQ per turn when firing indirectly (slightly more in Dev Doctrine) but against GEQ, you can kill 3-4 per turn. Enough to wipe out a small squad of Objective holders given a couple of turns.

 

So don't think of them like mortar teams that try to hide. Treat them like Devastators who happen to get some bonus anti-infantry shots.

[Kallas]

3 hours ago, Spyros said:

I thought that having the indirect fire rule doesn't mean it's obligatory. You can fire it directly too. 

Isn't it so?

Yes, but I think @WrathOfTheLion is saying that you're still paying the cost of having an Indirect-capable weapon when you're using it as a direct-fire weapon; or you're not using the main missle (Super Krak/Frag) when you're leveraging the indirect part (though it'd be possible to peek out to shoot something with the SK/F and still use the Castellan indirect on something else.