Horus Heresy Exemplary Battles - The Burning of Ohmn-Mat (+Bound Ruinstorm Detachment & Militia news)

[Noserenda]

Im not sure it was blowback exactly, but i did hear the team expanded and changed around the time of the first ones release which might have meant a shift in priorities  and explain all the delays, well, part of them anyway, as im sure the PDF lists especially could have been done much sooner potentially.

[Nagashsnee]

I feel like if they cared about the 'blowback' we would have seen some major effort into FAQs and rule support rather then just secretly delay things. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Stitch5000]

 

16 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Whats the betting that they delayed the militia list "for the cadians etc" and include precisely none of the new units?

 GW doesnt generally leave armies in the lurch with new editions, carrot , not stick.

12 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Let's be real they were absolutely lying about saving it for new models. The new models are nice the blooded especially look like evil Imperial army from the art but we all know it was cuase of the blowback from the Liber units being so mediocre that whatever list they were thinking of releasing was probably even worse.

What I mean is that GW doesn't make new editions for you to continue using your existing model collections. The entire point is to instigate some kind of churn in your collection. 

Why would they put out an army list FOR FREE that was essentially centered around models that would soon be discontinued?

[Cadmus Tyro]

Because creating discontent in an existing customer base isn’t particularly good business practice? 

You’re right of course, the whole 40k marketing process relies on new editions invalidating existing collections and new releases having rules that mean their inclusion is almost mandatory (from a competitive standpoint). My fear is this marketing technique has also been applied to HH, although I think (hope) GW recognise the difference in their target markets between the systems, and there is at least some effort to appease “veteran” gamers. 
 

I think other gaming companies have a much better approach to edition changes…..

 

 

Cadmus 

[Noserenda]

There isnt really much of a difference between the target markets, 30k might skew very slightly older but in my long experience if you put an room full of event attendees for both systems next to each other you would barely be able to tell them apart, though obviously thats its own skew :D 

Though thats also before the system became yet more accessible last year! 

One thing i will credit this release with is a much MUCH better datasheet for the units, including most of their rules are weapons on the relevant page to reduce cross referencing, more of this please.

[Cadmus Tyro]

I would argue there is, or at least there must be in order to justify the expense of creating an entirely new core game.
 

Perhaps it’s subtle but (anecdotally) there seems to be a drift of gamers disillusioned with the state of 40k drifting into 30k. 30k seems to preserve something of 40k leading up to 6th edition, which is an attractive option to me at least. 
 

I’m in no way interested in the direction 40k has taken and haven’t played a game since dipping my toe into 8th. I don’t think I’m alone in that.

 

Cadmus 

[Stitch5000]

Ye Olden' Militia list was a bit of a weird one since it didn't really ever directly refer to any particular models. Much like the Daemons list... They were about as close to sandbox lists as possible, which is fine when you are an independant game company that makes sufficient revenue from publishing printed products and selling the odd couple of hundred model kits. 

People cried out for more support from Forgeworld or for the games they liked from Forgeworld to receive support from Games Workshop at large and things got to a point where a step change had to be enacted to operate at the scale of demand.

Businesses work on measurable results and putting out a list that doesn't really have any model range that it refers to or visa versa leads businesses to having products with unmeasureable success, so its; super weird to see resource poured into a project that won;t really ever be measurable in its uptake. That's probably why we are seeing PDFs (that have less noticable production costs) compared to books (which will have a tangible material cost). 

[jaxom]

20 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

The ENTIRE point of militia was you can make your army both rules wise and models be just about anything. Napoleonic, hyper advanced power armor, army of fantasy marauders, bloody beastmen.  Bog standard cadians were just 1 possibility in an army of ENDLESS possibility.  Like deamons of the ruinstorm FW went out of their way to help you field some really fun out of the box armies. 

Simultaneously it makes it harder to have an internally balanced set of options. In 1.0, some were just better than others. At my most cynical, internal balance pushes more models because "people" will want to have different versions of militia and so buy Cadians, Krieg, Orlocks, Van Saar, Goliath, Cultists, and a variety of models to best fit the variety of good options.

[Nagashsnee]

9 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

Ye Olden' Militia list was a bit of a weird one since it didn't really ever directly refer to any particular models. Much like the Daemons list... They were about as close to sandbox lists as possible, which is fine when you are an independant game company that makes sufficient revenue from publishing printed products and selling the odd couple of hundred model kits. 

People cried out for more support from Forgeworld or for the games they liked from Forgeworld to receive support from Games Workshop at large and things got to a point where a step change had to be enacted to operate at the scale of demand.

Businesses work on measurable results and putting out a list that doesn't really have any model range that it refers to or visa versa leads businesses to having products with unmeasureable success, so its; super weird to see resource poured into a project that won;t really ever be measurable in its uptake. That's probably why we are seeing PDFs (that have less noticable production costs) compared to books (which will have a tangible material cost). 

So they are going to support militia with their own model range yeah? Day 1 rules? New and unique art and stories? 

 

Because otherwise the level of support remains the same ( use IG or other kits) for LESS rules then i had before.  Because newsflash in the age of 3d printers and 3 party galore the ONLY reason to pay GW prices is cause the minis are exactly what i want/need/like.  No amount of list butchering will change that, if anything 3d printing means i get the models BEFORE people who buy them from GW.   

 

So i ask again, what part of anything they have done for militia  or even that you believe they WILL do for militia is MORE support? If anything taking our beastmen and mauraders and all the crazy non IG standard box options makes it LESS likely that i will buy a GW kit for militia not more. 

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

Because newsflash in the age of 3d printers and 3 party galore the ONLY reason to pay GW prices is cause the minis are exactly what i want/need/like.  No amount of list butchering will change that, if anything 3d printing means i get the models BEFORE people who buy them from GW. 

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at GW, because I'd guess at some point in time an executive probably used similar reasoning to arrive at axing all rules support for Militia and Ruinstorm. If that were the case, lucky they got overruled.

[Noserenda]

2 hours ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

I would argue there is, or at least there must be in order to justify the expense of creating an entirely new core game.
 

Perhaps it’s subtle but (anecdotally) there seems to be a drift of gamers disillusioned with the state of 40k drifting into 30k. 30k seems to preserve something of 40k leading up to 6th edition, which is an attractive option to me at least. 
 

I’m in no way interested in the direction 40k has taken and haven’t played a game since dipping my toe into 8th. I don’t think I’m alone in that.

 

Cadmus 

An audience? Sure, thats not the same as different demographics though, its not a unique one either as crossover is endemic in the GW hobby, its designed that way, though mostly to stop you looking at other companies ofc :D 

Secondly, its hardly entirely new, its a second edition of a system that was essentially a 7.5 edition of 40k, well inside specialist games wheelhouse and budgets, as you can see by everything but necromunda going sporadic at best the last while to accommodate it.

Not liking 40k right now is something hardly unique to AoD players either, if anything is the growing trend in 40k :D People who dont like current 40k go off to play all sorts of games and come from all demographics, hell my 15-16 year old cousin asked me for 30k advice at christmas because his buddies abandoned 40k for it after starting with Imperium. My own group is playing through various other games, though we bounced of AoD2 because it reminded us why 8th was great, people have all sorts of reasons for playing the games they do.

But the demographics are broadly the same, its still broadly the same game after all.
 

1 hour ago, Stitch5000 said:

Ye Olden' Militia list was a bit of a weird one since it didn't really ever directly refer to any particular models. Much like the Daemons list... They were about as close to sandbox lists as possible, which is fine when you are an independant game company that makes sufficient revenue from publishing printed products and selling the odd couple of hundred model kits. 

People cried out for more support from Forgeworld or for the games they liked from Forgeworld to receive support from Games Workshop at large and things got to a point where a step change had to be enacted to operate at the scale of demand.

Businesses work on measurable results and putting out a list that doesn't really have any model range that it refers to or visa versa leads businesses to having products with unmeasureable success, so its; super weird to see resource poured into a project that won;t really ever be measurable in its uptake. That's probably why we are seeing PDFs (that have less noticable production costs) compared to books (which will have a tangible material cost). 

Well the initial plan was PDFs as a get you by because they knew books wouldnt be out any time soon. Im pretty confident thats changed in the meantime but that does feel like an insane reason to squat two whole armies and alienate a swathe of players. GW knows a whole load of their models dont get used for their intended purposes but ultimately as a model company rather than a rules one, thats not really the end of the world, its the popularity of the models thats important, not what rules people play them with. 

Hell, they just ran some articles on WHC about using necromunda gangers as guardsmen. 

Now im sure some people in the company, possibly senior people, get tribal about one system or another, that much is obvious at times, but this would be a massive overreaction if true. It would have to be a squatting too, because i doubt we will see many if any more daemons of the ruinstorm, let alone cults & militia specific models.
 

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

Simultaneously it makes it harder to have an internally balanced set of options. In 1.0, some were just better than others. At my most cynical, internal balance pushes more models because "people" will want to have different versions of militia and so buy Cadians, Krieg, Orlocks, Van Saar, Goliath, Cultists, and a variety of models to best fit the variety of good options.

Internal balance was utter trash in the Marine list too and they all have broadly the same statline, and got even more toys in 2nd edition alongside even worse internal balance issues. Im not sure how rules link specifically to certain models in the list either, sure, some fit certain providences better than others but there is always a buttload of options for any given example out there.


Finally, i get that some people dont seem to like the Cults and militia list, thats fine, you dont have to like them, but other people definitely do!