could it be that most of our Regimental Traits are simply bad?

[domsto]

Might be an unpopular opinion but after playing a few Games, talking with the other Guard Players in my local Community and doing some research into it, i come to the conlusion that almost all of our Regiment Traits are either outright Bad or that Born Soldiers is soo much better.

 

I mean we have stuff like "Bilz Divison" or "expert Bombadiers" which are unuseable in the current Ruleset.

 

"Parade Drill" which is a worse version of an Order every Commander can give(first Rank, secound Rank)

"Armoured Superiority" does exactly nothing if not combinded with the right Order

"Heirloom Weapons" doesn't do much either. I mean the Leman Russ already has a Threat Range of about 46". Which is enought on the smaller Boards

"Trophy Hunter" sounds like a good Traits at the Start, but when was the Last time you ran into a Vehichle heavy Army expect for Knights

"Mechanised Infantry" is held back simply by how overcosted Chimeras and Tauroxes are

"Cult of Sacrifice" and "Grim Demeanor" is a Infantry only buff, and Infantry is no longer the strongside of Guard. It rarley triggers as most of the time the Squad is wiped anyways.

There are some okay Traits which you can build a nice thematic List around like "Recon Operators, Brutal Strength, Veteran Guerrillas, Elite Sharpshooters,..." but compared with "Born Soldiers" they all seem worse.

 

So at the End we have no real Option other than "Born Soldiers". At least not if you try for semi Competetive.

would be interesting to hear your Opinions on that.

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by domsto

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Born soldiers is simply too good, and a stupidly pointless rule that makes no sense aside from “power gaming”

 

elite sharpshooters is great

veteran geurillas is great

mechanized infantry is great

armored superiority is great

heirloom weapons is great depending on what weapons you take, if you’re taking meltas that extra 4” can make a big difference between being able to shoot or not shoot, between the melta rule or not. Makes flamers a little more viable as well.

 

we have a lot of great/good traits many of which combine very well.

 

born soldiers is literally just too much better that’s why you don’t get to pair it with anything else.

 

i play my guard as mech/sharpshooters 

Or

sharpshooters/geurillas.

 

2/3 of the games I’ve played this codex have been against knights Tbf and the first game I just didn’t have the weapons to deal with that. 
born soldiers would have helped no doubt, but I hate the fact that lasguns can wound knights at all, honestly I hate that knights are in the game as anything beyond LoW options for admech.

 

i feel like the existence of LoW in the game is the only reason a rule like born soldiers even exists tbh.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Emperor Ming]

What difference is that from all of 40k

 

Most "chapter/regiment/custom" traits are questionable or garbage

 

Only a handful stand out, way its been for sometime

Edited March 15, 2023 by Emperor Ming

[mertbl]

I think another issue is Born Soldiers is good for almost every build. Its not like the others where you really have to build into the regimental traits. 

 

Another side thought, when the balance dataslate removes the "always counts as a 6 to wound" portion of Born Soldiers you might see other traits being used more frequently. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If we removed born soldiers from the equation and just look at what we have to pair up, we have plenty of good traits that mesh well with each other, and then you have to consider the stratagem support that some of these traits have as well.

[jarms48]

Most of them are pretty :cuss:. The ones that are good you have to list tailor towards to make use out of them.

 

They should have copied GSC Myriad Cult Creeds, with the 4 point spend. Something like this:

 

 

- Grim Demeanour, Parade Drill, Cult of Sacrifice, Blitz Division, Heirloom Weapons, and Brutal Strength aren't worth half your custom doctrines.

- Trophy Hunter isn't worth your entire custom doctrines. 

- Armoured Superiority is the only game changing one out of the custom list and only if you build for it. 

 

At this point I'm almost tempted to say Expert Bombardiers isn't worth half your custom doctrines either. Simply for the fact our artillery is so bad now. 

[sairence]

No, they're not bad, for the most part. There's a lot of potential in many of the traits. Grim Demeanour, for example, you take with a tank list, so that you can use Acceptable Losses against tagged vehicles. It's powerful in the right situation, but not an immediate connection to make.

 

Some of them aren't great, that's true. Bliitz Division excludes the one unit type that really wants it, Sentinels. Trophy Hunter is just weird for taking both slots. Bombardiers struggles from the overall game limitations. 

 

However, the issue that you seem to be running into, is that Born Soldiers is simply always a buff, on every unit. It's straightforward, requires no further setup and just works. That's why it's the default and why it's strong. It's an easy, strong choice. Other combinations for the most part require specific builds to really pay off, which adds an extra layer of difficulty, and then sometimes they may require more setup in games to really get the most out of them. 

 

That doesn't make them bad, but it makes them more complicated and less generally useful.

[Tokugawa]

All such "custom subfaction traits" systems in 40k have same problem: players would find the best one/best combination in 1 month, and more than 50% choices are just straightly weak and won't be used in competitive games at all.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

All such "custom subfaction traits" systems in 40k have same problem: players would find the best one/best combination in 1 month, and more than 50% choices are just straightly weak and won't be used in competitive games at all.

And GW of course has to make any presets the best trait combos when compared to the custom traits available.

[Tokugawa]

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And GW of course has to make any presets the best trait combos when compared to the custom traits available.

What are you talking about? More than 50% factions don't have "custom subfaction" mechanics. For those factions which have, in 9th Necron, Eldar and GSC all have(or once had) custom traits combo as their most tournament favorite subfaction traits. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

What are you talking about? More than 50% factions don't have "custom subfaction" mechanics. For those factions which have, in 9th Necron, Eldar and GSC all have(or once had) custom traits combo as their most tournament favorite subfaction traits. 

If you say so.

the ones I’ve seen that have had custom traits available the presets seem to be better.

[domsto]

My Problem is, even if i build a List around let's say "Cult of Sacrifice" and "expert Bombadiers" or "armoured Superority" to make a flavorfull DKoK List.

The exact Same List performce way better with "Born Soldiers"

 

Even in a World where "Born Soldiers" isn't a think. Most of the Traits are simply not worth it.

 

I would say half of the Traits are Bad, the other half is overshadowed by "Born Soldiers"

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 hours ago, domsto said:

My Problem is, even if i build a List around let's say "Cult of Sacrifice" and "expert Bombadiers" or "armoured Superority" to make a flavorfull DKoK List.

The exact Same List performce way better with "Born Soldiers"

 

Even in a World where "Born Soldiers" isn't a think. Most of the Traits are simply not worth it.

 

I would say half of the Traits are Bad, the other half is overshadowed by "Born Soldiers"

I mean yeah its stupid and really shouldn’t exist.

 

it should be exploding 6s at best

Edited March 16, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Nvm

Edited March 18, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[dees]

Domsto, you sir are 100% correct.  IMO for game play purposes Born Soldiers and Mechanized Infantry are the only 2 you take.  Born Soldiers is the better of them.   I wish it wasn't that way and the only way around it is to list tailor to your opponent, which is bad gaming IMO. 

[domsto]

Well...seems like further discussion on this Topic is fruitless as the new Edition brings with it a full restet as hoped.

Lets hope the 10.Ed Codex will have a better internal Balance as the 9.Ed one;)