williaint9 Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 Specifically thinking about dreads, Primarchs etc here, i.e. things that do not suffer Instant Death but instead lose D3 Wounds if they take an unsaved Wound from a weapon with Instant Death. If I hit them with a weapon which is AP2, Brutal (2) and Murderous Strike (4+), which comes first? Do they have to roll 2 Invulnerable Saves for each Wound caused (due to the Brutal), and each failed Invulnerable Save causes D3 Wounds? Or does a To Wound roll of 4+ cause D3 wounds, and each of these Wounds must be saved at Brutal (2). Hopefully this makes sense, although I have very much confused myself writing this! Basically, which Special Rule triggers first, in order to figure out when and how many saves are needed. Thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrypie Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 (edited) Instant Death applies to any wounds that are actually lost, ie. after saves, while Brutal X starts working before saves are rolled in order to determine the number of saves you need to make. You save in two pools against regular wounds and those with ID attached, accounting for Brutal as you go. If you fail regular ones, lose one wound per fail. If you fail those from Murderous Strikes, lose D3 wounds per fail. Edited March 18, 2023 by Sherrypie Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 (edited) Well, first thing, is that Primarchs have Eternal Warrior and, as such, only take 1 wound from a failed save against an ID weapon not d3. To bullet point it with, say, a Strength 10, Brutal (3), Murderous Strike (5+) example: Roll to hit If hit, Roll to wound If wound, separate out wounds that rolled a 5+ on the die with those that did not For wounds that rolled a 4 or lower: Opponent rolls 3 saves for each initial wound, taking 1 wound per failed save (so if they fail 2 but save 1, take 2 wounds) For wounds that rolled a 5 or higher OR, if the attacks strength doubles the targets toughness: Opponent rolls 3 saves for each initial wound taking 1 wound with the Instant Death rule applied If the model has Eternal Warrior, it takes 1 wound as normal per failed save If the model has a rule like Aromantic Deflector, it takes 1d3 wounds per failed save If the model has no such rules, remove it as a casualty on the first failed save Kinda more or less. Edited March 18, 2023 by Slips Oxydo, Cactus, Xenith and 1 other 3 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 I thought you only lost 1 wound to Brutal but are forced to take multiple saves, in effect? So Brutal (3) would roll three saves and has to pass them all to avoid losing a wound. Have I been getting this wrong again? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrypie Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 (edited) On 3/19/2023 at 11:39 AM, Valkyrion said: I thought you only lost 1 wound to Brutal but are forced to take multiple saves, in effect? So Brutal (3) would roll three saves and has to pass them all to avoid losing a wound. Have I been getting this wrong again? Expand You have, every failed save from a Brutal weapon does full damage. Brutal is effectively introducing weapon damage values into the older 40k paradigm with extra steps. Edited March 19, 2023 by Sherrypie Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 On 3/19/2023 at 11:46 AM, Sherrypie said: You have, every failed save from a Brutal weapon does full damage. Brutal is effectively introducing weapon damage values into the older 40k paradigm with extra steps. Expand Well, kinda. You loose just one wound per failed save but since brutal weapons tend to have high strength they are often instant death to most opponents and therefore erase them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 (edited) What weapon has both Brutal and Murderous Strike on the same profile? There's also not many weapons that have both S14 and Brutal on them. A titan power fist? Which is S14 AP1 detonator which causes D6-2D6 wounds Even a typon demoliaher Cannon is only S12 Brutal (4) Edited March 19, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 On 3/19/2023 at 3:42 PM, Dont-Be-Haten said: What weapon has both Brutal and Murderous Strike on the same profile? There's also not many weapons that have both S14 and Brutal on them. A titan power fist? Which is S14 AP1 detonator which causes D6-2D6 wounds Even a typon demoliaher Cannon is only S12 Brutal (4) Expand Transmutative armaments on the Infernus Abomination has Brutal (2) and Murderous Strike (6+), so there is at least one weapon with that combo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) Brutal is a multiplier to the number of saves that have to be taken for every successful wound roll. Murderous Strike/ID is a multiplier to the damage taken from each failed armour save. Just remember that Murderous strike doesn't mean things automatically wound in the same way rending does, so a S4 marine will not inflict instant death on a T7 dread unless they roll a 6+ to wound. So in your above instance, if you make a single successful wound roll of a 6 on a contemptor, that attack now gains the murderous strike rule. Brutal means that 2 saves must be taken for the single successful wound roll, and ID means that for each failed save from those 2 will inflict D3 damage, for a max of 6 damage per wound. Note that each wounding hit is applied to a single model, so the wound is applied to a model, then that model makes 2 saves, so a single wounding brutal hit can never normall kill 2 models, if that makes sense. On 3/19/2023 at 3:42 PM, Dont-Be-Haten said: What weapon has both Brutal and Murderous Strike on the same profile? There's also not many weapons that have both S14 and Brutal on them. Expand Probably the Lion or corswain? Edited March 20, 2023 by Xenith Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen11 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 How does Destroyer weapon interact with wounds? Is it like brutal so you roll basically d3 or after you fail your 1 save, you suffer d3 wounds? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) Russ' sword has brutal 2 and murderous strike 4+, the mhara gal claw is brutal 2 murderous strike 5+, and Anakastis blades are brutal 2 MS 5+. It's niche, but certainly not confined to titan weapon levels of interaction. Edited March 21, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/377961-brutal-and-murderous-strike-on-dreads-primarchs-etc/#findComment-5921918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now