Brutal and murderous strike on dreads, Primarchs etc

[williaint9]

Specifically thinking about dreads, Primarchs etc here, i.e. things that do not suffer Instant Death but instead lose D3 Wounds if they take an unsaved Wound from a weapon with Instant Death.

 

If I hit them with a weapon which is AP2, Brutal (2) and Murderous Strike (4+), which comes first?

 

Do they have to roll 2 Invulnerable Saves for each Wound caused (due to the Brutal), and each failed Invulnerable Save causes D3 Wounds?

 

Or does a To Wound roll of 4+ cause D3 wounds, and each of these Wounds must be saved at Brutal (2).

 

Hopefully this makes sense, although I have very much confused myself writing this! Basically, which Special Rule triggers first, in order to figure out when and how many saves are needed.

 

Thanks!

 

[Sherrypie]

Instant Death applies to any wounds that are actually lost, ie. after saves, while Brutal X starts working before saves are rolled in order to determine the number of saves you need to make. You save in two pools against regular wounds and those with ID attached, accounting for Brutal as you go. If you fail regular ones, lose one wound per fail. If you fail those from Murderous Strikes, lose D3 wounds per fail.

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Sherrypie

[Slips]

Well, first thing, is that Primarchs have Eternal Warrior and, as such, only take 1 wound from a failed save against an ID weapon not d3.

 

To bullet point it with, say, a Strength 10, Brutal (3), Murderous Strike (5+) example:

1. Roll to hit
2. If hit, Roll to wound
3. If wound, separate out wounds that rolled a 5+ on the die with those that did not
4. For wounds that rolled a 4 or lower:
   1.  Opponent rolls 3 saves for each initial wound, taking 1 wound per failed save (so if they fail 2 but save 1, take 2 wounds)
5. For wounds that rolled a 5 or higher OR, if the attacks strength doubles the targets toughness:
   1. Opponent rolls 3 saves for each initial wound taking 1 wound with the Instant Death rule applied
   2. If the model has Eternal Warrior, it takes 1 wound as normal per failed save
   3. If the model has a rule like Aromantic Deflector, it takes 1d3 wounds per failed save
   4. If the model has no such rules, remove it as a casualty on the first failed save

Kinda more or less.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Slips

[Valkyrion]

I thought you only lost 1 wound to Brutal but are forced to take multiple saves, in effect? So Brutal (3) would roll three saves and has to pass them all to avoid losing a wound. 

Have I been getting this wrong again?

[Sherrypie]

7 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

I thought you only lost 1 wound to Brutal but are forced to take multiple saves, in effect? So Brutal (3) would roll three saves and has to pass them all to avoid losing a wound. 

Have I been getting this wrong again?

You have, every failed save from a Brutal weapon does full damage. Brutal is effectively introducing weapon damage values into the older 40k paradigm with extra steps.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Sherrypie

[Gorgoff]

28 minutes ago, Sherrypie said:

You have, every failed save from a Brutal weapon does full damage. Brutal is effectively introducing weapon damage values into the older 40k paradigm with extra steps.

Well, kinda. You loose just one wound per failed save but since brutal weapons tend to have high strength they are often instant death to most opponents and therefore erase them.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

What weapon has both Brutal and Murderous Strike on the same profile? There's also not many weapons that have both S14 and Brutal on them.

 

A titan power fist? Which is S14 AP1 detonator which causes D6-2D6 wounds Even a typon demoliaher Cannon is only S12 Brutal (4)

Edited March 19, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Runefyre]

16 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

What weapon has both Brutal and Murderous Strike on the same profile? There's also not many weapons that have both S14 and Brutal on them.

 

A titan power fist? Which is S14 AP1 detonator which causes D6-2D6 wounds Even a typon demoliaher Cannon is only S12 Brutal (4)

Transmutative armaments on the Infernus Abomination has Brutal (2) and Murderous Strike (6+), so there is at least one weapon with that combo. 

[Xenith]

Brutal is a multiplier to the number of saves that have to be taken for every successful wound roll.

 

Murderous Strike/ID is a multiplier to the damage taken from each failed armour save.

 

Just remember that Murderous strike doesn't mean things automatically wound in the same way rending does, so a S4 marine will not inflict instant death on a T7 dread unless they roll a 6+ to wound. 

 

So in your above instance, if you make a single successful wound roll of a 6 on a contemptor, that attack now gains the murderous strike rule. Brutal means that 2 saves must be taken for the single successful wound roll, and ID means that for each failed save from those 2 will inflict D3 damage, for a max of 6 damage per wound.

 

Note that each wounding hit is applied to a single model, so the wound is applied to a model, then that model makes 2 saves, so a single wounding brutal hit can never normall kill 2 models, if that makes sense. 

 

16 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

What weapon has both Brutal and Murderous Strike on the same profile? There's also not many weapons that have both S14 and Brutal on them.

 

Probably the Lion or corswain?

Edited March 20, 2023 by Xenith

[Fallen11]

How does Destroyer weapon interact with wounds? Is it like brutal so you roll basically d3 or after you fail your 1 save, you suffer d3 wounds?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Russ' sword has brutal 2 and murderous strike 4+, the mhara gal claw is brutal 2 murderous strike 5+, and Anakastis blades are brutal 2 MS 5+.

 

It's niche, but certainly not confined to titan weapon levels of interaction. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk