WH40k game Indomitus Terminators

[The Unseen]

For bolter discipline, they might just have wanted to make terminators no longer exempt from having to remain still to get the benefit, if they decide to keep it around. The profiles for the heavy weapons, since they're unit specific now, in this case the termies don't suffer any move and fire penalties. I'm guessing that'll still be in the game somewhere, but not here. So its not necessarily gone, just terminators always getting the benefits are at minimum.

 

GW has decided bolters are the baseline weapon of the game, which I don't think is a good idea, but it is what they've done for years now, and in that case bolters really don't need AP. Because then every other army ends up getting at least the same amount of AP, and you end up with basic guns in other armies hitting AP-2 on the regular, because intercessors could. I'm just really hoping that if they don't mess with the Str/T chart they revert the Ork toughness change. It didn't really work, killed the horde of boyz, and made the weapon lorewise the best weapon for killing them into pea-shooters. But basic weapons just shouldn't have AP, unless getting it has a cost, either in loss of shots or very hefty range penalties, and they gotta be really hefty with how small the boards are these days. Used to having a 24" actually felt a bit short on 6x4, now between Obscuring and smaller boards, everything that isn't a pistol basically is never out of range if it has LoS.

[DesuVult]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

AP is being reduced, not removed. Some weapons should have it, and they likely will.

 

A single shot rifle with long range is a suitable candidate to keep an AP modifier.

I don't think the game's baseline infantry from which others should draw comparisons should start the edition off with long range AP if the intent is to reduce AP and previous lethality.

Edited April 4, 2023 by DesuVult

[Orange Knight]

2 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

I don't think the game's baseline infantry from which others should draw comparisons should start the edition off with long range AP if the intent is to reduce AP and previous lethality.

 

Sure, but Intercessors are amongst the most elite battle-line infantry in the game.

 

They stand above Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, Orks, Sisters, Eldar etc.

 

It's interesting to see what GW will do. If all AP is lost then the different Bolt Rifle variants will become worthless compared to the one that has the most shots, simple as that. The various options need to be compelling in their own right.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Looking at the TDA weapon stats, I'd not be surprised if the AP mods went down on many of the new Bolt weapons, but things like range and damage remain the same to allow Primaris squads their point of difference over Tactical squads. 

Weapons with Heavy would IMHO still be OK for an AP mod.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Lemondish]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

The various options need to be compelling in their own right.

I agree, if the distinction between these weapons is kept. It would suck to lose that distinction, because the granularity is neat to me, but it's ultimately not much of a problem or change either way. I'll still keep the auto bolt rifle on my Intercessors because it looks the coolest no matter what happens lol

[DesuVult]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

 

Sure, but Intercessors are amongst the most elite battle-line infantry in the game.

 

They stand above Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, Orks, Sisters, Eldar etc.

 

It's interesting to see what GW will do. If all AP is lost then the different Bolt Rifle variants will become worthless compared to the one that has the most shots, simple as that. The various options need to be compelling in their own right.

If intercessors get AP there is a stronger argument for other units like fire warriors to get AP.  There doesn't need to be options for bolt rifle, there can just be bolt rifle.

 

By making bolt rifles AP -1 you remove any step between them and chain fists or krak missiles.  I don't think bolt rifles are 1 step removed from anti-tank weapons in armor penetration.  Keeping them at 0 and putting weapons like autocannons at AP -1 creates what I feel to be a better progression.  Anti-infantry, light anti-vehicle, anti-vehicle, and then heavy anti-vehicle can fit into AP -3.

 

This would even be a big benefit for marines because you can put things from other armies into AP -1 that aren't anti-tank but are stronger than bolters.  If you put bolters is AP -1 stronger weapons are more likely to end up in AP -2 and we will quickly be heading right back into the AP issues of 9e.

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, zero888 said:

Not a fan of Power Fists not being unwieldy. *SNIP* Maybe Terminators don't have the negative to hit to represent the armor but a PA Sergeant will?

It’s the effect of Fury of the First being built into the weapon profile.

[Lemondish]

3 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

If intercessors get AP there is a stronger argument for other units like fire warriors to get AP.  There doesn't need to be options for bolt rifle, there can just be bolt rifle.

There could be, and while it would suck to lose that granularity amongst the different options today it isn't exactly a major issue if it turns out this way. I'm not exactly convinced that intercessors getting a pip of AP means fire warriors need it. However...

4 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

By making bolt rifles AP -1 you remove any step between them and chain fists or krak missiles.  I don't think bolt rifles are 1 step removed from anti-tank weapons in armor penetration.  Keeping them at 0 and putting weapons like autocannons at AP -1 creates what I feel to be a better progression.  Anti-infantry, light anti-vehicle, anti-vehicle, and then heavy anti-vehicle can fit into AP -3.

This is a very compelling argument. I like this.

 

Ultimately, I hope Bolters feel effective enough at their role even without AP. Everything going down in lethality doesn't really give us much of an impression of how effective these weapons will be amongst their contemporaries, what with having only seen two and a half data cards at this point. I don't want to get back to a point where we have to start adding extra shots and extra AP and extra everything just to get Marines into a comfortable place where they adequately compete against other basic troops. We may avoid that thanks to these indexes starting everything all at once at one baseline. Codex creep may simply be inevitable, like the heat death of the universe. Until it happens, though, I'm not worried.

6 minutes ago, jaxom said:

It’s the effect of Fury of the First being built into the weapon profile.

While also getting that as a bonus?

[AceofCase]

13 minutes ago, jaxom said:

It’s the effect of Fury of the First being built into the weapon profile.

I'd say that could be the case, but chainfists still hit on 4s. So unless chainfists are a -2 to hit, which would also be a serious change of rules, I think they just ditched the penalty for regular power fists. 

[Orange Knight]

Just now, AceofCase said:

I'd say that could be the case, but chainfists still hit on 4s. So unless chainfists are a -2 to hit, which would also be a serious change of rules, I think they just ditched the penalty for regular power fists. 

 

On this particular unit.

 

The Terminator elite might simply be very adept at using power fists.

 

I imagine that the Aggressors will still be hitting on a 4 with their Boltstorm gauntlets?

 

[AceofCase]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

 

On this particular unit.

 

The Terminator elite might simply be very adept at using power fists.

 

I imagine that the Aggressors will still be hitting on a 4 with their Boltstorm gauntlets?

 

That's also possible yes. I think it's hard to transfer any sort of profile between units now. They could give Vanguard Vets 2 damage on power weapons just for funsies. We just have to wait and see more profiles at the end of the month. 

[jaxom]

20 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

There could be, and while it would suck to lose that granularity amongst the different options today it isn't exactly a major issue if it turns out this way. I'm not exactly convinced that intercessors getting a pip of AP means fire warriors need it. However...

This is a very compelling argument. I like this.

 

Ultimately, I hope Bolters feel effective enough at their role even without AP. Everything going down in lethality doesn't really give us much of an impression of how effective these weapons will be amongst their contemporaries, what with having only seen two and a half data cards at this point. I don't want to get back to a point where we have to start adding extra shots and extra AP and extra everything just to get Marines into a comfortable place where they adequately compete against other basic troops. We may avoid that thanks to these indexes starting everything all at once at one baseline. Codex creep may simply be inevitable, like the heat death of the universe. Until it happens, though, I'm not worried.

While also getting that as a bonus?

Yep, so Fury covers things like cover and Lightning Reflexes.

 

The chainfist is interesting and perhaps the first example we’re seeing of individual WS in profiles being used to tweak a particular weapon from what we’re used to seeing. A squad of chainfists will wreck a vehicle, but there’s a noticeable trade off on the hit.

[Urkh]

Fury of the first also references targeting an enemy with the oath of moment ability. We see that oath of moment is also their faction keyword. So if we took the terminators in a detachment that would replace oath of moment, would this part of the ability be voided?

 

Edit: or maybe oath of moment never is replaced, no matter which detachment you bring?

Edited April 5, 2023 by Urkh

[spessmarine]

Just now, Urkh said:

Fury of the first also references targeting an enemy with the oath of moment ability. We see that oath of moment is also their faction keyword. So if we took the terminators in a detachment that would replace oath of moment, would this part of the ability be voided?

 

I feel like the card is then changed.

Like with the Termagant card, there was one with and with Rippers right? Therefore the cards must then be adjustable with things you can swap in and out.

Trivial probably for a digital list building app to render a different ability per different faction, physical cards just become pointless.

[Nephaston]

31 minutes ago, Urkh said:

Fury of the first also references targeting an enemy with the oath of moment ability. We see that oath of moment is also their faction keyword. So if we took the terminators in a detachment that would replace oath of moment, would this part of the ability be voided?

 

Edit: or maybe oath of moment never is replaced, no matter which detachment you bring?

Oath of Moment is the faction ability.

The detachment ability would be something like combat doctrines for the gladius strike force.

[Aarik]

I wouldn't mind if all the primaris bolt rifle/heavy bolt rifle variants were consolidated, but I would be surprised if GW did that just because it would make all the variant mags/scopes that come in the box redundant.  I don't see GW "backtracking" like that and making stuff that takes up so much sprue space immaterial.  (Though, admittedly, something similar could be said for all the grenades, holsters, pouches, etc.). 

[DesuVult]

5 minutes ago, Aarik said:

I wouldn't mind if all the primaris bolt rifle/heavy bolt rifle variants were consolidated, but I would be surprised if GW did that just because it would make all the variant mags/scopes that come in the box redundant.  I don't see GW "backtracking" like that and making stuff that takes up so much sprue space immaterial.  (Though, admittedly, something similar could be said for all the grenades, holsters, pouches, etc.). 

On my heavy intercessor instructions I don't think the variants are even labeled. 

[Nephaston]

8 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

On my heavy intercessor instructions I don't think the variants are even labeled. 

The agastus and pariah nexus instructions don't have them labelled, but the standalone ones do via the profiles.

 

Basically the round ones are auto, the ones with skull and crossbones are heavy, and the boxy ones are rapid fire.

[Noserenda]

Yeah the bolt rifles actually change up how you play the unit, power weapons, especially ones on sergeants and the like, just reward you for playing the meta and picking the "right one" for whatever you are facing or punish you for it being "wrong". 

[Urkh]

Thanks for the replies. Now I just want to know what the oath of moment ability does! Hope we find out soon.

[Nephaston]

36 minutes ago, Urkh said:

Thanks for the replies. Now I just want to know what the oath of moment ability does! Hope we find out soon.

You're in luck, Faction Abilities will be covered in the next article, so around 10 hours left.

[Lemondish]

3 hours ago, Aarik said:

I would be surprised if GW did that just because it would make all the variant mags/scopes that come in the box redundant. 

I mean, outside of one particular build for Hellblasters, you could always just say it's variations on the standard weapon, customized by each Astartes to their specifications, but otherwise not distinct enough for special rules. Gives you an in-universe reason for your Intercessors to have multiple different types of rifle.

 

I just build my Hellblasters with both the backpacks and that crazy assault scope and just call them whatever I need for that list. I've never mix and matched so it's never been a problem. I just think it looks cooler. But I digress.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Lemondish

[Arkangilos]

6 hours ago, Lemondish said:

I agree, if the distinction between these weapons is kept. It would suck to lose that distinction, because the granularity is neat to me, but it's ultimately not much of a problem or change either way. I'll still keep the auto bolt rifle on my Intercessors because it looks the coolest no matter what happens lol

I wish they would just make it so rather than the whole squad going same weapon, you’d have 1 autobolter per five men, one grenade launcher, and one heavy bolt rifle or whatever per five men. I’m biased, but the tactical flexibility of a Team Leader, Grenadier, Automatic Rifleman, and Rifleman is pretty good. 

 

The autobolt rifle would provide more shots, the bolt rifle have better range, and the heavy bolt rifle being the one with -1 AP. Though personally I did like when all bolters had AP of some degree (though I can understand why they lost it).

Edited April 5, 2023 by Arkangilos

[appiah4]

13 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Well people wanted the game to get less lethal. More random weapons will help with that.

Or people will just gravitate towards less random weapons as they often do.. unless you play orks.

[The Unseen]

33 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I wish they would just make it so rather than the whole squad going same weapon, you’d have 1 autobolter per five men, one grenade launcher, and one heavy bolt rifle or whatever per five men. I’m biased, but the tactical flexibility of a Team Leader, Grenadier, Automatic Rifleman, and Rifleman is pretty good. 

 

The autobolt rifle would provide more shots, the bolt rifle have better range, and the heavy bolt rifle being the one with -1 AP. Though personally I did like when all bolters had AP of some degree (though I can understand why they lost it).

Umm... No thanks. I'd rather not have to roll or watch my opponent roll multiple different weapon profiles from his basic troop squad every time. The Repulsor is bad enough as is, don't make the problem worse. At most it should be the grenade launcher, and the frag should have the same profile as the bolter meaning you just roll the d6 and add that many shots in, and then however many bolters. Especially when *most* of the time those small variations in weapon basically don't matter. Its a little different when a tactical squad has say a meltagun, that one shot can make a big difference on the table; 1 bolter shot out of 9 (assuming 4 rifles and then a stalker or something) is a complete waste of everyones time. Or rolling the Repulsors what, 4 different small arms anti-infantry fire, some of which has random shots as well?