Primarchs The Primarchs' characters - stregnths, flaws and issues - what are they?

[Commander Nicky]

I have always been facinated by the Primarchs. They lead the Legions for 200 years and conquerored the galaxy... only to threw it what they had build into chaos. What went wrong? I believe it especially has something to do with their characters. Some of these Primarchs Character flaws are more obvious than others: Fulgrim's perfectionalism, Angron's survivors guild and uncontrolable rage Magnus's arogrance and ihubris... but others seems less clear to me; Lorgar, Rogal Dorn, Ferrus Manus, Alpharius Omegon and Jaghatai Khan they are a bit more tricky to me...
 

Anyone can elaborate on these?
I believe that Lorgar greatest flaws was his vanity and hubris
Rogal Dorn - his single mindedness and a pitfall (unwillingness to bend)

Ferrus Manus - his inability to view the beauty in human fragility and simplesity (in that way his is kind of inhuman and disstorted)

Alpharius Omegon - their complexity, self-evaluation/measurement of their own greatness and inability to be open to other than a selected group

Jaghatai Khan - Pride, withdrawness, isolation... Perhaps more...

 

What do you think?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Most primarchs have the same core flaw: they think their methods are the best and are unwilling to actually consider others viewpoints.

 

You can kinda synthesize a lot of their actions in that way, but all the books that focus on corax show it really well, with him actually paying consequences for his actions (though still not really learning his lesson).

[MARK0SIAN]

I sometimes wonder if the faults were a result of the Emperor trying to tailor them to different roles. Whether that had any impact on them and what (if any) difference it would’ve made if he’d just tried to make 20 “generalist” Primarchs.

 

If the Emperor was focussing a particular Primarch on any one aspect of himself, like Magnus for example, that will naturally amplify the good bits you want but will also probably amplify the negative aspects of that particular aspect. 
 

 

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I sometimes wonder if the faults were a result of the Emperor trying to tailor them to different roles. Whether that had any impact on them and what (if any) difference it would’ve made if he’d just tried to make 20 “generalist” Primarchs.

 

How much were the Primarchs flaws and weaknesses shaped by the Emperor's genetic engineering and how much by their upbringing? Some capabilities like Magnus' psychic powers, Vulkan's perpetuity and Corax's invisibility were obviously intentionally designed. Many of the Primarchs suffered from hubris of one sort or another. Arguably this is because they were scattered. The Emperor intended to raise them himself and they would have grown up with their peers. Instead each grew to adulthood believing themselves to be unique and greater than anyone around them.

 

Some were obviously badly psychologically scarred by their upbringing such as Angron and (to a lesser extent) Mortarion. It raises an interesting thought on the notion of nature vs nurture.

[Gorgoff]

I may add Ferrus Manus is an obtuse moron with almost no understanding of strategy and tactics and oblivious to this fact. Why Horus talks about him as if this daft half-wit was a major threat and must be brought on his side is beyond me.

 

 

[MARK0SIAN]

48 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

How much were the Primarchs flaws and weaknesses shaped by the Emperor's genetic engineering and how much by their upbringing? Some capabilities like Magnus' psychic powers, Vulkan's perpetuity and Corax's invisibility were obviously intentionally designed. Many of the Primarchs suffered from hubris of one sort or another. Arguably this is because they were scattered. The Emperor intended to raise them himself and they would have grown up with their peers. Instead each grew to adulthood believing themselves to be unique and greater than anyone around them.

 

Some were obviously badly psychologically scarred by their upbringing such as Angron and (to a lesser extent) Mortarion. It raises an interesting thought on the notion of nature vs nurture.

Yeah, ultimately I think it does come down to nature/nurture and there’s no way their upbringing didn’t affect every single one of them so we can never know. Even the ones you might consider more sane/rounded/humble as an individual like Sanguinius, Guilliman or Dorn have still got faults and baggage that stem from their upbringing as opposed to their design.

 

It’s these awesome hypothetical things we can never know the answer to that I love about the heresy! 
 

 

[Karhedron]

21 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

I may add Ferrus Manus is an obtuse moron with almost no understanding of strategy and tactics and oblivious to this fact. Why Horus talks about him as if this daft half-wit was a major threat and must be brought on his side is beyond me.

 

 

 

Ferrus was supposedly a very skilled fighter and leader. Guilliman regarded him as one of the "Dauntless Few" which was the handful of Primarchs he regarded as the most capable. Horus clearly regarded his death rather turning as a significant loss. Also Ferrus was the 3rd found Primarch and as such was one of the "elder brothers" who was assigned to tutor the younger ones. Specifically he mentored Vulkan in some of his early engagements.

 

I think Ferrus as a character suffered from being killed off so early on before we got a proper delve into his character. My personal take is that he was as good a leader as Horus and Guilliman thought but that Fulgrim was his kryptonite. His favourite brother turning on him completely robbed him of his self-control. Had he been fighting without such a personal beef, he probably wouldn't have charged headlong into the guns on Istvaan V. Not that it would likely have made much difference in the long run.

[Gorgoff]

33 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Ferrus was supposedly a very skilled fighter and leader. Guilliman regarded him as one of the "Dauntless Few" which was the handful of Primarchs he regarded as the most capable. Horus clearly regarded his death rather turning as a significant loss. Also Ferrus was the 3rd found Primarch and as such was one of the "elder brothers" who was assigned to tutor the younger ones. Specifically he mentored Vulkan in some of his early engagements.

 

I think Ferrus as a character suffered from being killed off so early on before we got a proper delve into his character. My personal take is that he was as good a leader as Horus and Guilliman thought but that Fulgrim was his kryptonite. His favourite brother turning on him completely robbed him of his self-control. Had he been fighting without such a personal beef, he probably wouldn't have charged headlong into the guns on Istvaan V. Not that it would likely have made much difference in the long run.

I've just finished reading a story of him where he fights against Eldar and he is the exact moron he is on Istvaan. He may be a fearsome enemy in personal combat (which he is ruleswise as well) but apart from this he is so dense and obtuse. And how he treats his own men! They have to walk around him like on eggs or get yelled at otherwise. Not good leader material. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

The novels tell us how competent and ruthless ferrus is as a general. But they show him doing some incredibly dumb things. 

 

Unfortunately it's best to ignore all the bad novels and take Horus and guilliman at their word when they think about how good ferrus is. 

[Astartes Consul]

The more recent Primarch books' subjects have benefited from having their characters fleshed out by different voices, IMO.

 

For example, Alpharius-Omegon appears less of a 'too clever for their own good' character and more someone who spent so long in the shadows, doing what was necessary by any means, that they completely lost what had anchored them to the cause they were fighting for in the first place. 

 

Or the literally horrifying aspects of Sanguinius as a character and how much of his and his Legion's image is just a mask (a fact he is fully aware of).

 

Not that it will happen, but a new look at someone like Ferrus in this mould would be great. What simmering anger/headstrong nature within him meant that, when it came to the betrayal, he threw aside centuries of experience as a general and leader respected by all his peers and charged headlong to his own death?

[Sothalor]

I mean... none of the novels depict any kind of serious strategic or tactical brilliance, when such concepts as creeping barrages, close fire support, force concentration, and concealment/cover are treated as inexplicable, revolutionary breakthroughs.

 

And to be fair to Black Library, that's hardly an issue exclusive to its works. Why are so few super-humanly intelligent characters across the spectrum of all fiction believable? Because they're written by regular old humans, very few of whom are inhumanly intelligent. Why are so many hand-to-hand fight scenes so clunky and infeasible? Because they're written by people, very few of whom are genuinely experienced experts in the practicalities of beating another human to death. Why does so much genre fiction depict firearms in the most hilariously inaccurate ways? Because they're written by people, most of whom aren't technical-minded gun nuts.

 

 

On the Primarchs' flaws; one thing to keep in mind is that they are all essentially isolated, lonely demigods. They're like twice the size of baseline humans, leagues beyond in terms of physical and cognitive abilities. They're leaders of legions of transhuman warriors who see them as father figures and practically worship them. Vast swathes of industry, bureaucracy, and culture in a burgeoning galactic empire heed their every whim.

 

How does that old saying go? "If you want to test a man's character, give him power."

[Arkangilos]

On 3/27/2023 at 3:00 PM, Sothalor said:

elievable? Because they're written by regular old humans, very few of whom are inhumanly intelligent. Why are so many hand-to-hand fight scenes so clunky and infeasible? Because they're written by people, very few of whom are genuinely experienced experts in the practicalities of beating another human to death. Why does so much genre fiction depict firearms in the most hilariously inaccurate ways? Because they're written by people, most of whom aren't technical-minded gun nuts.

 

 

On the Primarchs' flaws; one thing to keep in mind is that they are all essentially isolated, lonely demigods. They're like twice the size of baseline humans, leagues beyond in terms of physical and cognitive abilities. They're leaders of legions of transhuman warriors who see them as father figures and practically worship them. Vast swathes of industry, bureaucracy, and culture in a burgeoning galactic empire heed their every whim.

It kinda reminds me of the Greek Myths with their gods.

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

It kinda reminds me of the Greek Myths with their gods.

 

A very good comparison. They are larger-than-life characters with their virtues and their flaws magnified.

[b1soul]

Forge World (bless them) tried their best to rehabilitate Ferrus, but the damage was done. 

 

As for his attitude toward his warriors, I guess it could be worse, he could be Perturabo

[Arkangilos]

On 4/9/2023 at 10:45 PM, b1soul said:

Forge World (bless them) tried their best to rehabilitate Ferrus, but the damage was done. 

 

As for his attitude toward his warriors, I guess it could be worse, he could be Perturabo

Could you expand on this? I’m not too familiar with either presentation.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Bit of threadomancy, but as “Fixed Ferrus” is one of my favourite Primarchs, and “Black Library Ferrus” is one of my pet peeves, let me try to explain it. 
 

Fixed Ferrus, courtesy of the Forge World black books, is portrayed as one of the more strategically brilliant Primarchs, with one of his strengths being field command. He was one of the very first found Primarchs, and by the time Guilliman was discovered he commanded an entire third of the Great Crusade, with Horus and the Emperor overseeing the other two. 
The Iron Hands developed a reputation for excellence in total war scenarios, and in their “hammer and storm” tactics, in which a diversionary force draws the attention of the enemy, drawing them into a killzone where the rest of the Iron Hands could utterly devastate them. 
Ferrus was ruthlessly analytical, able to break a conflict down, find the weakest point, and obliterate it. 

 

Their Exemplary Battle demonstrates this, where a world that had managed to repulse a combined force of Ultramarines, Thousand Sons, and Legio Atarus titans, through a combination of powerful psykers, Dark Age tech, and WMDs, was taken by Ferrus. How?

First, orbital strikes on communications nodes and waterways to destroy their cohesion. 
Second, as confusion reigned he sent in the Clans of the Legion, taking key positions and setting up defensive lines. 
Third, wait for the cities to send counter-attacks, then counter those with Land Raider columns. 
Fourth, besiege the capital, using seconded Emperors Children and anti-air to neutralise any WMDs being launched, provoking a final counter-attack, which is personally countered by Ferrus. Seek the enemy commander, annihilate them, rout the remaining defenders, and immediately call off the attack once victory has been won. 
Each step taken in as direct a manner as possible and overwhelming force. 
 

He dies at the Battle of Istvaan after his forces are lured into a trap by the Traitor forces, seemingly having caught them before they could finish their preparations. Seeing Fulgrim apparently vulnerable, he ends up caught in an ambush and overwhelmed. 
He’s not an idiot, he sees a seemingly vulnerable target caught unawares, having been perfectly set up by Fulgrim, his closest brother who knew him better than anyone. 
 

Then, we have Black Library Ferrus…

This version of the character appears to have been created by seeing his death at Istvaan and deciding “this guys entire personality is obviously comprised of two parts: Blind Rage, and Falling Into Traps!”

His Primarchs novel rewrites the Exemplary Battle into “Ferrus hears the enemy has psykers and WMDs, calls the other Legions idiots for failing against them, then is utterly shocked when the enemy uses psykers to derail the diplomatic talks, and then utterly shocked once more when his unguarded massed assault is targeted by WMDs, and is only saved by the heroic sacrifice of Emperors Children captain Marius Suevius, who earlier singlehandedly beats every named Iron Hands commanders at once in a duel, and the book ends with Ferrus declaring that he’s not suitable for strategic command.”

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

Rogal Dorn: The Practically Perfect Primarch

 

Strengths: Everything

Flaws: None

Issues: None

 

All other Primarchs wish they were Dorn. 

 

Seriously though, it does seem like Dorn is good at everything as (most) Primarchs tend to be without any real weaknesses per se. Perhaps stubbornness or an over-reliance on protocol at the expense of risk-taking? I don't think he had any actual issues. Not compared to the other Primarchs with real issues going on. Dorn seems very balanced, very reasonable, very calm. Though perhaps lacking the more obvious sort of charisma that the likes of Horus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim etc had could be a flaw of a sort. 

[Jareddm]

Malcador explains Dorn's weakness to him. He is the closest the primarchs have to a psychic null. Not in a pariah sense, but in the sense that his understanding of the universe either ignores or can not comprehend the metaphysical. The mechanics of the immaterium are beyond him and he simply wasn't built to reconcile with it the way Magnus, Sanguinius, or even Russ or the Khan were.

[Karhedron]

Dorn also has a really bad temper that he struggles to control. He nearly killed Garro just for telling the truth and his treatment of Sigismund was not much better.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The isolationism and withdrawn nature for both the 1st and Vth legions led to fairly material and logistical results, hence why they were still rocking predominantly MK II armor and the 1st Legion still had damage to their ships from the Rangdan Wars all the way to the Heresy. This was also exploited by Horus to send them out to the fringes to keep them out of the picture, which is pretty substantial when you consider the size of the 1st Legion, as an example. That's a large force that's not doing anything for the first little bit of the Heresy.

 

On 12/31/2023 at 11:28 AM, Jareddm said:

Malcador explains Dorn's weakness to him. He is the closest the primarchs have to a psychic null. Not in a pariah sense, but in the sense that his understanding of the universe either ignores or can not comprehend the metaphysical. The mechanics of the immaterium are beyond him and he simply wasn't built to reconcile with it the way Magnus, Sanguinius, or even Russ or the Khan were.

It bothered him to no end that one of the other primarchs was allowed to know about Chaos and that he wasn't told. I don't think Malcador ever explicitly says which one was, but I'd infer it'd be the 1st given their job to eradicate things that don't conform with the Imperial Truth, of which Chaos would most certainly check the box on that.

Edited January 2 by WrathOfTheLion

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

  

On 12/31/2023 at 4:28 PM, Jareddm said:

Malcador explains Dorn's weakness to him. He is the closest the primarchs have to a psychic null. Not in a pariah sense, but in the sense that his understanding of the universe either ignores or can not comprehend the metaphysical. The mechanics of the immaterium are beyond him and he simply wasn't built to reconcile with it the way Magnus, Sanguinius, or even Russ or the Khan were.

It bothered him to no end that one of the other primarchs was allowed to know about Chaos and that he wasn't told. I don't think Malcador ever explicitly says which one was, but I'd infer it'd be the 1st given their job to eradicate things that don't conform with the Imperial Truth, of which Chaos would most certainly check the box on that.

 

Was this just Dorn though? Only a handful of Primarchs have obvious psychic powers, perhaps all the others were engineered around the physical.

 

I think that the Primarch who knew about Chaos was Alpharius/Omegon. Firstly we know that one of twins crash-landed back on Terra after the scattering and was retrieved by the Emperor almost immediately. This resulted in him growing up in the Imperial Palace and being tutored by Malcador as the Emperor had intended for all the Primarchs. Also, in "Legion", Alpharius/Omegon show know surprise when the Cabal start talking about Chaos, in fact they confirm that the Emperor was trying to eradicate it.

 

Alpharius/Omegon are the only Primarch to appear to know about Chaos at the outbreak of the Heresy (aside from Lorgar). Whilst it is possible they learned of it independently like the Word Bearers, I think they are the most likely candidate for Malcador's line about only one Primarch being allowed to know about Chaos.

[WrathOfTheLion]

My thought process is that they had obvious Chaos taint on Caliban that they had to eradicate + that they pretty well outright knew the Imperial Truth was false, as the Legion's purpose was to eradicate and keep no records of esoteric Xenos, etc. that clearly showed it was false. Add the outright temptation of Daemons in the forest, and he'd've had a pretty strong knowledge.

 

Either way, I'm sure a few of them knew to some capacity. We can ignore the specifics and see the separation there, where Alpharius seems to know about it, as well that Jonson would have known something. So we've got a few primarchs that know there's dark stuff out there and wouldn't have the same flaw that Dorn clearly expresses in a very strong way that there's only material powers and explanations for things.

Edited January 2 by WrathOfTheLion