Engagement range and flying vehicles.

[ExeterOborach]

Okay. So I was watching a game between two friends playing  Drukhari vs Orks.  The situation was some Boyz had charged a Venom. The front tips of the Venom's hull were about half an inch horizonatally and about 2 inches vertically from the bases of the front Boyz. The Venom's rules say you measure distances from the hull. The rules for engagement range is measured from base to hull in this case. So the few Boyz in front of the Venom were within  1 inch horizontally and 5 vertically so they were able to attack. A few Boyz in the second rank were within half an inch of the Boyz in front. However, the rules concerning the second rank models being able to fight don't include any vertical distance. Just being within half an inch of models within half an inch of the target. So the Ork player thought that you just measure the horizontal distance from the bases of the front Boyz and the hull of the Venom from a bird's eye view and that the exclusion of vertical distance was just an oversight and therefore granting the second rank Boyz the right to attack. The Drukhari player thought that since no vertical distance was included in the stipulations and the front Boyz require the vertical distance to even be in range themselves that the second rank Boyz do not get to attack.  The difficulty with fighting flying transports being intentional. 

They asked me to check the rules and I found that rules as written, the Boyz would not be able to attack.

The Ork player said that all models, not on a building or terrain feature, that are on the ground floor of the table are to be considered "on the same plane" of the battlefield and thus bypassing the exclusion of the vertical requirement. That the vertical distance is only for models on a elevated terrain piece. 

So I was wondering what the ruling here would be? 

Do players play this RAW or neglect the exclusion of the vertical distance requirement? 

Thanks. 

[ExeterOborach]

I was also referred to the Goonhammer rules review of this situation and it stated that the second rank units would not get to fight due to RAW. 

[Emperor Ming]

Vertical wouldn't come into it

 

Models within engagement range of the base and those within half an inch of those within engagement range get to strike

 

With a pile in, its rare that a model even in a large unit doesn't get to strike

[ExeterOborach]

11 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Vertical wouldn't come into it

 

Models within engagement range of the base and those within half an inch of those within engagement range get to strike

 

With a pile in, its rare that a model even in a large unit doesn't get to strike

Normally this would be the case. However the rules for the Venom state that distances are always measured from the hull. It's flying stand is technically ignored while elevating the model about 1 1/2 inches ( from it's lowest point) off the ground which renders a horizontal distance between it and enemy bases on the ground nonexistent.  So measuring the front Boyz' bases to the Venom's hull requires the vertical limit in order for them to be considered within engagement range. 

The rule for the second rank models being able to attack state that they must be within 1/2 and inch of a friend that is also within 1/2 an inch. It does not say the front models only need to be within engagement range (which would normally be 1 inch horizontally & 5 vertically) of the target's base. Seeing as how the front Boyz are technically about 1 3/4 inch from the Venom vertically, they would not fulfill the requirement of 1/2 an inch and thus not activating the Boyz behind them. 

This is only an issue because the rules don't mention a vertical distance.  

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Had to double check my rulebook on this one - my recollection of how the rules worked was definitely wrong.

 

Your friend is correct, in order to attack, the model must be

 

a)  within engagement range of the target (here, the 5" rule kicks in), or

b)  within 1/2" of a model in their unit withint 1/2" of the target.

 

The wording for b) is quite specific - it could have read "within 1/2" of a model in their unit in engagement range" - but it didn't.  It seems, for whatever reason, specifically worded to prevent that result.

 

As a note, one place I don't think your friend is correct is in why the rule is as it is - most fliers have rules where you measure to their bases, not their hulls - pretty much all of the vehicles that have the rule to measure to the hull rather than the base are things like the Eldar Falcon/Waveserpent and the Tau Devilfish/Hammerhead where the hull is bigger than their base but they are low to the ground.  My understanding was that most vehicles that are both high up and larger than their base have rules to measure to whatever is closer... so the rules for Vyper (as quoted by your opponent, anyway) seem a bit unusual.

 

Rather, the rule being as it is probably has something to do with GW wanted melee in buildings to work, as that is both where it is most likely to come up and seems to be the scenario for which GW designed vertical engagement distances to deal with.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Xenith]

12 hours ago, ExeterOborach said:

The Ork player said that all models, not on a building or terrain feature, that are on the ground floor of the table are to be considered "on the same plane" of the battlefield and thus bypassing the exclusion of the vertical requirement. That the vertical distance is only for models on a elevated terrain piece.

 

That's just like, his opinion, man. I'd ask him to point out that rule in the rulebook.

 

The rules are clear on this one, distances are measured to and from the Venom's hull, and if the model is not within 1/2", then models behind cannot attack. This is very clearly the same for other combats with models on the ground - if the first 'rank' of models in melee are >1/2" away from the enemy (but still within the 1" engagement range, models behind cannot attack, as they are not within 1/2" of a model within 1/2".  The rules are also written that way to stop excessive numbers of models from getting attacks from a long way away. If horde models were intended to be able to attack as a swarm from further away, they would have a rule that countered the 1/2" rule, just like hormagaunts do. 

 

Engagement range and other distances clearly have elevation accounted for in the rules, however they do not in this instance. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Xenith
Venom, not Vyper