Ummm....anyone lookin' at Rapiers?

[9x19 Parabellum]

So played a game against my buddy last week.  He usually brings his 1 unit of assault bolters on his Imperial Fists. Now those guys shred, for sure, but they are short range and I've figured out how to play around them.   This time he swapped it out for a unit of 6 Heavy Support guys with Heavy Bolters.  They slapped and were a real problem. 24 shots hit on 2's, wound on 3's. 

 

I decided I needed something like that and then I came across Rapiers with  gravis heavy bolters.  Has anyone take a look at these? 40 points gets you, effectively, 2 heavy bolters, except they have twin-linked, 48" range, relentless and come on a slightly more survivable t5 chassis. 

[bushman101]

Rapiers are great.

The current price tag keep people away

[SkimaskMohawk]

The issue with heavy bolters in general is how limited they are in targets. You can sweep basic 3+ armour, but once they start layering apothecaries and heart, or 2+ armour and multiwound, they fall off. Obviously bad against contemptors and can't damage most vehicles.

 

The other options tend to be pretty strong though. Quad launchers with fire rounds are hugely annoying, and they can take shatter to spike down medium vehicles. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

10 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

The issue with heavy bolters in general is how limited they are in targets. You can sweep basic 3+ armour, but once they start layering apothecaries and heart, or 2+ armour and multiwound, they fall off. Obviously bad against contemptors and can't damage most vehicles.

 

The other options tend to be pretty strong though. Quad launchers with fire rounds are hugely annoying, and they can take shatter to spike down medium vehicles. 

 

Maybe my meta is a little different than yours, but generally I'm only seeing apothecaries on exactly that; big tac or despoiler squads with Heart.  That still leaves plenty of nice targets like gun squads and heavy gun squads (which are frankly more dangerous anyway).  Also, I think they might be pretty decent into terminators too, what with 4++ (or 3++ for certain termies).

[SkimaskMohawk]

41 minutes ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

 

Maybe my meta is a little different than yours, but generally I'm only seeing apothecaries on exactly that; big tac or despoiler squads with Heart.  That still leaves plenty of nice targets like gun squads and heavy gun squads (which are frankly more dangerous anyway).  Also, I think they might be pretty decent into terminators too, what with 4++ (or 3++ for certain termies).

 

Well 3 bolt rapiers average 4.6 failed 3+ saves. So MSU of recons or seekers or whatever get swept up, but a larger unit with bigger guns, like heavy supports, will be able to return fire. You lose about half the unit from that.

 

I'm not too sure what you mean about termies. Heavy bolters don't cut their saves at all; the 3 bolt rapiers average 2.3 failed 2+ saves, and that's at best one dead Terminator (or none if they character juggle).

 

 

[9x19 Parabellum]

So two things;

 

1. The 48" range on the rapier bolter can often mean it's out of range for return fire. Also, I play alpha legion so that extra 2" can REALLY put me out of range of return fire. But even if one doesn't play AL there are still a lot of targets you can outrange.  Even so....I can't entirely dismiss a unit just because return fire might happen....i mean...there are a lot of things you can do to draw out reactions.  Would you ever say "Don't take Lascannon Heavy Support team because return fire can kill them!".  But even if you WERE evaluating that, the Rapier squad (at 120 points) contains 12 T4-5 wounds vs. like...6 T4 wounds...so it's still more durable on top of everything else.

 

2. For the terminator play, I just mean that a lot of the time, the AP of breaching/rending stuff that you would want in order to kill terminators is wasted because....again, in my meta, as Tartaros are so rare (because of availability I suppose) I see mostly Cata termies, and my one regular IF buddy takes his Catas with the Vigil Storm Shields for a 3++.   So...I'm not saying that one should take Rapiers with heavy bolters as a solution to killing terminators, or that it's optimal. I'm just saying the high rate of fire and overall stats, given the prevalence I see of 4++/3++ on termies, they can be used as a plan B. Hit on 3s with twinlinked, wounds on 3s = 14 armor saves.  That's on average a dead termie every time they shoot. 

[Mandragola]

Rapiers do seem good. I've had an opponent bring three individual ones, all firing large pinning blasts at me. It was a total pain to play against.

 

The heavy bolter ones are ok some of the time. There are quicker ways to kill off marines and they cost loads of money. I guess if plastic ones appear the latter issue would be fixed.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I've never actually seen one up close. Is it easy to swap the guns out or are the chassis designed with a bespoke gun in mind for each?

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 hours ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

The 48" range on the rapier bolter can often mean it's out of range for return fire. Also, I play alpha legion so that extra 2" can REALLY put me out of range of return fire.

 

But not from blobs of heavy support marines, the one target thing I was mostly talking about. If it's seekers or special weapon squads or whatever, yea you outrange them by a lot. 

 

7 hours ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

Even so....I can't entirely dismiss a unit just because return fire might happen....i mean...there are a lot of things you can do to draw out reactions.  Would you ever say "Don't take Lascannon Heavy Support team because return fire can kill them!"

 

Sure there are, but at the same time there's some pretty obvious choices of what's actually worth reacting to. The fact of the matter is that a full las squad has such good output that most units don't bother shooting them in fear of their reaction, which limits the pool further.

 

I'd never say that about a lascannon squad because they're just so good for their points. They're always worth taking.

 

7 hours ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

For the terminator play, I just mean that a lot of the time, the AP of breaching/rending stuff that you would want in order to kill terminators is wasted because....again, in my meta, as Tartaros are so rare (because of availability I suppose) I see mostly Cata termies, and my one regular IF buddy takes his Catas with the Vigil Storm Shields for a 3++.   So...I'm not saying that one should take Rapiers with heavy bolters as a solution to killing terminators, or that it's optimal. I'm just saying the high rate of fire and overall stats, given the prevalence I see of 4++/3++ on termies, they can be used as a plan B. Hit on 3s with twinlinked, wounds on 3s = 14 armor saves.  That's on average a dead termie every time they shoot

 

Sure yea, plan B and all that. But that result from a full unit is not pretty decent; they're still really limited to the 3+ 1 wound models, and idk if an elite slot for 5 power armour a volley is really worth it.

[Starlight_Wolf]

Not so sure about other load outs, but wouldn't the Grav and Las Cannons provided solid options as cheaper mobile Anti Tank (Las), or Anti infantry, with the ability to slow them down with the spcial rule Grav applies (can't remember it off the top of my head, and I don't have my rule book to hand)

[Bung]

I use them sometimes as a Fist Player.

120 Points for three gives you more Output than a HSS Squad with Heavy Bolters.

They never felt like wasted points for me.

[Gorgoff]

Just now, Bung said:

I use them sometimes as a Fist Player.

120 Points for three gives you more Output than a HSS Squad with Heavy Bolters.

They never felt like wasted points for me.

Although a Heavy Support Squad with heavy Bolters is easy to outclass

[MichaelCarmine]

17 minutes ago, Bung said:

I use them sometimes as a Fist Player.

120 Points for three gives you more Output than a HSS Squad with Heavy Bolters.

They never felt like wasted points for me.

Yeah, but especially with IFs, a HSS can be scoring and it can react.

The later giving it much more "security" then a Rapier, 'cause you'll allways shoot at a rapier, but you will think twice, or even thrice before shooting at a HSS.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think if you could take the bolter ones in 9 per elite slot like the auxilia tercios they'd be a lot more desirable. 1 elite choice, 360 points, 72 shots; respectable number of dead Marines and wounds on 2+.

[Gorgoff]

6 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I think if you could take the bolter ones in 9 per elite slot like the auxilia tercios they'd be a lot more desirable. 1 elite choice, 360 points, 72 shots; respectable number of dead Marines and wounds on 2+.

And against SA they would be incredibly good.

 

I am waiting for a Errata which makes it possible for Iron Warriors to upgrade them to Shrapnel Cannons. The number of players who basically wants to have Shrapnel on :cuss:ing every weapons with Bolt in its name is so damn high that I assume GW will make that happen.

[Brother Sutek]

23 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

And against SA they would be incredibly good.

 

I am waiting for a Errata which makes it possible for Iron Warriors to upgrade them to Shrapnel Cannons. The number of players who basically wants to have Shrapnel on :cuss:ing every weapons with Bolt in its name is so damn high that I assume GW will make that happen.

Then you'll have the anger the Dark Angels had last edition with their hvy bolters. As they are the SA will be destroyed with a unit of them.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

My thousand sons army rock 3 laser destroyers as a standard in every list. I usually back them up with a Siege Breaker and telekinesis to give them Sunder and a 4++ invuln save.

[Bung]

4 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

Yeah, but especially with IFs, a HSS can be scoring and it can react.

The later giving it much more "security" then a Rapier, 'cause you'll allways shoot at a rapier, but you will think twice, or even thrice before shooting at a HSS.

 

True, but not every IF Player pulls that nonsense or runs Stone Gauntlet.

 

For me i prefer playing without a RoW and cheese, so the HB Rapiers have been a great tool in 2000 Point Games.

[MichaelCarmine]

5 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

True, but not every IF Player pulls that nonsense or runs Stone Gauntlet.

 

For me i prefer playing without a RoW and cheese, so the HB Rapiers have been a great tool in 2000 Point Games.

Well true, only 9 out of 10! xD

 

Regardless - not saying, they don't work! Just saying, a HSS has more survivability thanks to reactions and in a IF list, the TwinLink doesn't factore in as much as it woul in other legions ^^

[Irate Khornate]

I've been looking at them for a while, but like it was posted previously the price is keeping me from pulling the trigger.

 

Definitely leaning towards the Laser destroyer over the heavy bolter though.

 

 

[Gorgoff]

10 minutes ago, Irate Khornate said:

I've been looking at them for a while, but like it was posted previously the price is keeping me from pulling the trigger.

 

Definitely leaning towards the Laser destroyer over the heavy bolter though.

 

 

Grav Cannons are awesome. 

[MichaelCarmine]

29 minutes ago, Irate Khornate said:

I've been looking at them for a while, but like it was posted previously the price is keeping me from pulling the trigger.

 

Definitely leaning towards the Laser destroyer over the heavy bolter though.

 

 

Yeah, i get you... I want a few QuadLaunchers for my IWs, but "luckily" thats the only version with MKIV Legionares included, while i need MKIII to fii with the rest of my IWs... To be honest, it would'nt be a problem to just kitbash MKIII plastics with the MKIV crew, but i don't see, why i should, when paying 54€ just for one Rapier...

[dickyelsdon]

Ive got a Laser Rapier for my Ultramarines, but its a tough choice as Elites is very overcrowded slot for Ultramarines (even without the Suzerain/Fulmentaris, which i dont have).  They can work very well tho if i can get them in a list. Ive not tried HB Rapier as I have a lot of anti-infantry already, keen to look at the Grav option tho.

[Xenith]

If I was going HB's, I might take Tarantulas?

 

I've not used them but I like the look of Grav and Mortar rapiers.

 

Grav is a predator main gun weapon on a small chassis (always good) and plops down a 5" blast marker of difficult and dangerous terrain - you're probably going to kill nothing with the initial shot, but suddenly everything under it is -2" movement and each model has a 1/6 chance of dying next turn, subject to invulns. Haywire is a bonus, if you can manage to clip dreads, or maybe that talon that has to deploy together, a unit of 3 grav rapiers might be looking at a straight 2-3 wounds per dread. 

 

Mortars also look great for the range of different ammo they can take, including the rending 6+ shellshock one that looks decent I'm not as sold on shatter shells as they're direct fire and S8, but good for preds I guess and again the phosphex shell is awesome for the above lingering template and difficult terrain. 

[bushman101]

8 hours ago, dickyelsdon said:

 Elites is very overcrowded slot

Absolutely. 

It's really hard to 'casually ' throw these in a list when you have to consider Apothecaries/Contemptors/Legion specific elites.