10th Edition Deathwatch discussion

[Lemondish]

With 10th edition on its way, and new rules trickling out day by day, I felt it would be fun to start a thread discussing both news and speculation about how the Long Vigil will adapt to the new edition.

 

Here's a small taste of what was shared today regarding Terminators:

 

How do you think these guys will fit into Deathwatch?

 

I'm also curious as to how kill teams will work moving forward as they have traditionally been absolutely massive and complex in how their data sheets behave. How do you think they're going to change, if at all?

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Lemondish

[TheHyperion]

If I was to take a guess, I can imagine that going forwards GW will continue to limit the options down to what is available in the kits. I would be surprised if Deathwatch can still take plasma cannons since it is not present in this kit.

 

I would not be surprised if certain codexes (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights) are made separate similar to chaos. Deathwatch to me seems a bit more precarious. Flavorwise it would make sense for GW to come out with more models for them and give them some new primaris support. If Deathwatch don't end up getting their own codex though I imagine it will be part of the main codex. However, since Deathwatch have their own combat patrol it's possible that they survive the transition as their own faction since no other group has one and they are trying to push that as an introductory format for 40k.

 

I am of the personal belief that the edition might start out with no space marine subfactions but have them reintroduced over time. I think support for the kill team playstyle of Deathwatch (varied units in a squad) might go away. GW has been known to add/remove strange builds like the old formations from 7th edition.

 

I am personally excited for Terminators, I am excited to see the melee options for the assault squad. I hope Deathwatch Terminators can still take plasma cannons. Also excited to see librarians/captains/chaplains in terminator armor. Would also be cool to see a new weapon option or something. Deathwatch interests me due to being able to convert/paint space marines of different chapters so I am hoping to hop on board during 10th edition.

[INKS]

I was looking to start either GK or Deathwatch and that has me a little concerned now. 

Edit: I mean, I guess either way I should wait and see what happens with either or both factions before really making any plans.

Edited April 5, 2023 by INKS

[TheHyperion]

18 minutes ago, INKS said:

I was looking to start either GK or Deathwatch and that has me a little concerned now. 

Edit: I mean, I guess either way I should wait and see what happens with either or both factions before really making any plans.

Yeah that's how I feel, definitely a safe bet to wait until the indexes drop before making any monetary decisions. All we can do at the moment is speculate.

[Lemondish]

15 hours ago, TheBloodSpitter said:

I can imagine that going forwards GW will continue to limit the options down to what is available in the kits.

That feels pretty likely, but also sounds nearly impossible for DW. Since their inception they've had all of the options available within the kill team kit and veteran units like Sternguard and Vanguard. In 9th, they tried to reduce the instances of Storm Bolter Veterans (a major meta pick in 8th) by removing the interaction with SIA, which I'd refer to as a soft-sunset if I'm being perfectly honest.

 

I do suspect that reining in how many of a particular option is available as an upgrade will be considered, as we've seen that in a variety of instances lately. perhaps no more quad frag cannon units?

 

15 hours ago, TheBloodSpitter said:

I think support for the kill team playstyle of Deathwatch (varied units in a squad) might go away.

I also suspect that will be the case. There's a level of logistical complexity marrying kill teams with this new data card system that has me wondering how particularly complex units like this will behave. We have one example of a mixed unit data card already, but I can't exactly imagine what that will look like for something as potentially varied as a kill team. Not to mention how the Primaris version of these kill teams in 9th edition essentially turned into a way to unlock objective secured on units that otherwise wouldn't have it, or as a way to exceed the standard unit size as was the case for Outriders and Eliminators. Perhaps the build your own kill team concept is done, or maybe it'll just move to include only veteran units (Termies, Bladeguard, etc.)

 

For me, the parts that I connect with the most for Deathwatch, the things that feel quintessentially DW, are the modeling opportunities, unit customization, and special issue ammunition. Unit customization makes this an army that is essentially "your special forces dudes", but I'm not convinced that the only way to achieve this is through mixed units like that. We do see hints at what looked to be Primaris Sternguard coming in that trailer...maybe that's where Deathwatch rules will focus?

Edited April 5, 2023 by Lemondish

[TheHyperion]

6 hours ago, Lemondish said:

For me, the parts that I connect with the most for Deathwatch, the things that feel quintessentially DW, are the modeling opportunities, unit customization, and special issue ammunition. Unit customization makes this an army that is essentially "your special forces dudes", but I'm not convinced that the only way to achieve this is through mixed units like that. We do see hints at what looked to be Primaris Sternguard coming in that trailer...maybe that's where Deathwatch rules will focus?

Definitely feel like the Primaris Sternguard will have a deathwatch feel with their differing weapon loadouts. Will be interesting to see here soon enough what those stats look like.

 

Also hoping that we get a deathwatch member to cross the rubicon or get upscaled in size. A named watch captain or something would certainly be cool. I definitely feel if there is ever a time to bring in more deathwatch elements it will be against the tyranids. That new phobos lieutenant we saw looks like they could fight right in as a black shield.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

I just hope we get some clarification soon because it’s really limiting any purchases or hobby plans currently.

 

I just want to know what’s happening with kill teams and mixed squads.

live got all mine painted with squad markings but really throws a spanner in the works of the entire force if they no longer work that way and will mean days of repainting at minimum.

just wish they would pull the bandaid off at this point, just so we know if armies are still valid, I’ve got 18 10 man kill teams and 12 10 man specialist squads, eg vanguard vets, inceptors, terminators etc. Roughly 50% is painted but if my shotguns and storm bolter/ storm shield squads are now elite vanguard or have been squatted it is a massive issue.

[Lemondish]

What with the new details on leaders joining squads I wanted to share an issue I've encountered that only my Deathwatch brothers will understand.

 

As GW released new lieutenant models over the years, I gobbled them up to add additional flavour, maybe sometimes some chapter focused iconography, etc. to my kill teams. So I've already got all these unique lieutenant sculpts and not a single one of them actually behaves as a lieutenant. They've all been re-based onto 32mm so they could be included in a kill team.

 

But now it seems like I actually need a real lieutenant. Woe is me!

[Lemondish]

We've now seen weapons previews and vehicle previews along with other bits and bobs.

 

Things to note that I'm going to wildly speculate on...

• The weapon preview hinted at Primaris getting to ride in Land Raiders - could this also hint at the possibility that Primaris get to ride in the Blackstar?
• Weapon abilities feel like a fantastic avenue to base Special Issue Ammunition off of
• With these new data sheets being pretty size constrained, new Primaris Veterans coming, and the details about how Terminators being Primaris or Firstborn, I'm wondering if we see a streamlining of Kill Teams down to being exclusively Vets with only one Primaris and Firstborn team...
• I wonder if weapon options for Deathwatch Veterans will be pared down to the bits in the box...they did this in Kill Team, so it won't surprise me if it happens here too. Otherwise that data sheet is going to be MASSIVE

 

Now I'm gonna rant. The way Primaris Kill Teams behave in 9th is one of the biggest examples of degenerative gameplay in 40k, I personally feel. Their value comes from allowing you to surround other, more valuable models with ablative wounds, or by enabling you to bend or break core unit rules like size limits, or bestow objective secured on things that don't normally have it. It felt terribly gamey and silly, but more than that, they didn't include access to the only Veteran Primaris unit - the Bladeguard.

 

Deathwatch is made of Veterans. Our Proteus teams are formed from Veteran Firstborn units. So too should the Primaris team.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Lemondish

[ThePenitentOne]

On 4/15/2023 at 1:22 AM, Lemondish said:

Now I'm gonna rant. The way Primaris Kill Teams behave in 9th is one of the biggest examples of degenerative gameplay in 40k, I personally feel. Their value comes from allowing you to surround other, more valuable models with ablative wounds, or by enabling you to bend or break core unit rules like size limits, or bestow objective secured on things that don't normally have it. It felt terribly gamey and silly...

I disagree- I think the Primaris rules around mono-loadouts are the thing that is silly, and that Kill Teams liberate Primaris units and make something organic out of something that is otherwise pretty cookie-cutter.

 

I will say that the Kill Team phenomenon does make more sense for small skirmish games- sending a Kill Team of 5 Primaris and five outriders in combat squads makes sense when that's all you're sending, but if you're going with a larger deployment, I suppose you might as well send a unit of Primaris and a separate unit of Outriders.

 

In my campaign, you have to split your forces to defend territory, so putting a Kill Team that is diverse enough to offer tactical flexibility on a territory makes sense.

 

Unfortunately, I agree with the majority that the Kill Team flexibility that we have now may be lost, and that is a very bad thing from my perspective. It won't make me less likely to play Deathwatch- it'll make me less likely to play 10th.

 

On the plus side: Primaris may finally be able to ride Corvus Blackstars. Also, I thought the DW Crusade rules were a bit weak, so maybe there's the potential for improvement on that front. 

[Lemondish]

3 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

I disagree- I think the Primaris rules around mono-loadouts are the thing that is silly, and that Kill Teams liberate Primaris units and make something organic out of something that is otherwise pretty cookie-cutter.

I believe that was the intention, but the efficient picks in action turn out to just be a gamey way of taking those same mono-loadout units and give them side effects they don't normally gain access to. I recall the most popular being the Fortis teams with 5 Hellblasters that relied on the Intercessors as ablative wounds, or the Fortis teams with 5 Outriders to give them obsec and exceed the unit's natural size limitation, or again using Heavy Intercessors as Ablative wounds. I did feel the Spectrus team was a unique combination of unit benefits that the others didn't have, but again, some of that benefit was to give Eliminators higher squad sizes and obsec. It never really felt like you could mix and match with unique benefits the way you could in 8th, or the way you could with Proteus teams. It benefitted you to add more of something else rather than just combat squadding or adding for ablative wounds and obsec.

 

3 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

Unfortunately, I agree with the majority that the Kill Team flexibility that we have now may be lost, and that is a very bad thing from my perspective. It won't make me less likely to play Deathwatch- it'll make me less likely to play 10th.

 

On the plus side: Primaris may finally be able to ride Corvus Blackstars. Also, I thought the DW Crusade rules were a bit weak, so maybe there's the potential for improvement on that front. 

I'm not expecting Kill Teams to completely disappear, I just assume that the Primaris versions will be more focused on Veterans, like the Firstborn side of things. I could imagine the following:

 

Proteus team behave the same as today, adding Vanguard Vets, Vet Bikers, and Terminators to a base of Veterans.

Primaris might then only be the new Primaris Sternguard, the Bladeguard, and Terminators.

 

But this is all just wild speculation. I find it insanely difficult to imagine how they'll fit all the weapon options into a single sheet for Vets, let alone a Kill Team one lol

[Lemondish]

It's official, transports are going to be a lot less limiting on who can ride in them - on both sides of the Rubicon Primaris.

 

Let's hope this all applies to the Corvus Blackstar and drop pods

 

Though, I suppose the return of the best looking Imperial flyer all depends on how aircraft will behave in this edition...

[Tonus The Reaver Lord]

I'd like to see Deathwatch Veterans get the same upgrade Sternguard Vets got with new models and some updated datasheets. Ideally I would love to see the Killteam mechanic given a major overhaul. I think it would be better if the base unit for all four teams be Deathwatch Veterans. Then the Killteam type determined by the units paired with them.
Fortis:
Intercessor units (Standard, assault, hellblasters, Outriders, decimator squad)
Proteus:
"First born" units (DW Vets, SG Vets, Van Vets, Terminators)

On a side note, it would be nice if DW veterans can take Jump Packs
Indomitor:

Gravis Units (Heavy Intercessors, Aggressors, Inceptors)

Spectrus:

Proteus Units (Infiltrators, Eliminators, Reavers)

[justicarius6]

I think this might actually be the death knell for mixed units of all stripes for the Deathwatch . 

[Rikev]

We are up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marine-chapters/

 

Well that solves the weapon options problem, they have genericized them.

 

Shotguns and combi-weapons have been turned into Long Vigil Ranged Weapon.

Power Swords, Mauls, Thunder Hammers, etc have been turned into Long Vigil Melee Weapon.

Heavy Thunder Hammer, Infernus Heavy Bolter, Frag Cannon, Boltgun, Missile Launcher (Not in the kit?) and Xenophase Blade have all retained their weapon profiles.

[Deepstrike_Nick]

1 minute ago, Rikev said:

We are up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marine-chapters/

 

Well that solves the weapon options problem, they have genericized them.

 

Shotguns and combi-weapons have been turned into Long Vigil Ranged Weapon.

Power Swords, Mauls, Thunder Hammers, etc have been turned into Long Vigil Melee Weapon.

Heavy Thunder Hammer, Infernus Heavy Bolter, Frag Cannon, Boltgun, Missile Launcher (Not in the kit?) and Xenophase Blade have all retained their weapon profiles.

Well, this might not be true.

The chaos marine card had extra weapons on the back that weren't mentioned on the front and also references a "heretic astartes armoury card" (something like that) that contained the remainder of the weapon-profiles.

So I'm cautiously optimistic.

[Tonus The Reaver Lord]

6 hours ago, Rikev said:

We are up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marine-chapters/

 

Well that solves the weapon options problem, they have genericized them.

 

Shotguns and combi-weapons have been turned into Long Vigil Ranged Weapon.

Power Swords, Mauls, Thunder Hammers, etc have been turned into Long Vigil Melee Weapon.

Heavy Thunder Hammer, Infernus Heavy Bolter, Frag Cannon, Boltgun, Missile Launcher (Not in the kit?) and Xenophase Blade have all retained their weapon profiles.

 

6 hours ago, Deepstrike_Nick said:

Well, this might not be true.

The chaos marine card had extra weapons on the back that weren't mentioned on the front and also references a "heretic astartes armoury card" (something like that) that contained the remainder of the weapon-profiles.

So I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

Well hopefully there's some clarification, because the idea that the combi and full versions of the plasma, grav, and melta guns all having the same stats as the stalker bolter, have rapid fire, and yet only deal 1 damage just sounds idiotic.

[Azaiel]

Just a small heads up: Beard teased at the now running live show with tabletop tactics that Deathwatch do have SIA.

[Tonus The Reaver Lord]

2 minutes ago, Azaiel said:

Just a small heads up: Beard teased at the now running live show with tabletop tactics that Deathwatch do have SIA.

I had a brief scare thinking that the recent faction focus release was literally all that DW had in 10th but found out that it was just a teaser and there will be more info and datasheets coming thank goodness. Guess when GW neglects your faction for so long you just assume broken incomplete rules are all you're getting. lol

Glad to hear there's still more to come, new models are unlikely in our immediate future (otherwise they would have announced them by now) but a few new things to give us a chance to actually fight and win against Xenos, the thing our faction was created to do, will be nice.

[Stargate_wars]

On 6/2/2023 at 5:53 PM, Azaiel said:

Just a small heads up: Beard teased at the now running live show with tabletop tactics that Deathwatch do have SIA.

With the release of the Space Marine Index, I believe we now more or less know where SIA will be part of the Black Spear Task Force Detachment Enhancements.

 

Edit - well they made SIA types as a Stratagem.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Stargate_wars

[ThePenitentOne]

Don't like the new composition rules for Fortis, Indomitor and Spectrus teams.

 

I was all happy that the Blackstar could transport them, but without combat squads and the ability to take specialists at 5 to combat squad, these Kill Teams aren't fun to field regardless of how cool it is they can ride the Blackstar.

[Feral_80]

I played a test match yesterday with a friend, 2000k DW vs Tyranids.

 

Since as DW I used to rely on melta/melee in 9th, I found my anti-heavy stuff severely lacking. Many Tyranid monsters are now horribly (I would say exceedingly) tough, and they just would not die, or at least not fast enough. On the other hand, their anti-heavy is really good and hits hard, so the little and light vehicles I had did not last.

 

The good:

• Captain in Gravis with Thief of secrets is a beast. 
• 5-man DW Vets team are really good brawlers for their cost, esp. vs Xeno of course. And they still have <Kill Team> keyword, so they can benefit the most from SIA strats...not that this matters much, sadly.
• We (Marines in general) have many good anti-light/infantry options.
• Oath of moment is a life-saver.
• DW Terminator squads are nicely flexible and costed compared to normal terminator, they are fine as a standalone squad.

 

The so-so:

• SIA strats are underwhelming. Even at their maximum effect, don't expect miracles. Also because of other issues - see KTs and CPs in the 'bad' list.
• Generally, DW strats seem usable, but not impressive.
• Mission Tactics are...okish? Decent boost for a couple of turns, but they won't really address our weaknesses. Let's call them a slight variation on doctrines, but with less interactions.
• With VVs having been weakened, and no access to Assault squads at all, (and thunder hammers being now garbage), any of us who used to rely on JP smash Captains should forget them. Can't say I will miss these, though.
• I really appreciate how the new overwatch stratagem works. I really do not like it that some armies have super-tough units armed with very powerful torrent weapons (Tyranid monsters!) that can easily create a 24" area of denial for any unit to enter. While we, on the other hand, have...flame aggressors and Infernus, none of which is really scary. We might be pushed to take a Watchmaster to make Overwatch cost 2CP to the enemy. But the problem is...Watchmasters seem overcosted and not particularly impressive in any other job.

 

The bad:

• CP starvation, and no access to characters giving +1 CP/round (auto-takes in all armies that have one) is a real problem. On paper, many basic stratagems are good (grenades, tank shock, smoke screen)...but in practice, don't expect to use many of those at all, so do not rely on them. This imbalance among factions already seems to be a big issue to me, as basically some factions get double CPs.
• KTs are useless, overcosted and with weak abilities, and their members' interactions just do not work, largely because of combat-squadding being gone. Proteus is laughably priced; Fortis has little use (plasma is now silly) and loses the (good) basic Intercessor ability; Spectrus has no real synergies among its members. The only viable is Indomitor, whose cost and ability are fair: but the limit of 2 specially equipped troopers per type means it will not work well in any specialised role, especially melee. It's a mid-field, short-range firing squad and not-too-convinced brawler. Saddest point: as even basic Eradicators are now bad (melta is now silly too), our KT Eradicators are mostly garbage.
• Elaborating on the above, I had a 10-man Indomitor with an attached Captain in Gravis: what they did was chipping damage off monsters and helping him in melee by dying in his place. All in all, a 6-man full Aggressor squad might be preferable, or at least comparable, much harder in melee, and cheaper. Sad.
• I had assumed my Contemptors were still decent due to their ability; sadly, they are not: M 6" severely hampers them, and their only 2 weapon choices are garbage. Sadly, it is pretty clear which kind of Dreadnought we should take from now on.
• Most of the units I used are basic SM units: Outriders + Chaplain (not so good, but at least tough), Razorbacks (nice), Bladeguard with Justicar (but: our Beacon Angelis works wonders in this case), Sternguard Vets, Eliminators. They work, but they are not DW real stuff.
• We need to stock up on e.g. Gladiator Valiants for real anti-tank, I'm afraid. Overall, most DW flavour is gone.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Feral_80

[Lemondish]

Thanks a ton for the insight Feral_80, and I can say I have made almost the exact same conclusions. I avoided KTs in army building because they looked really poor so your in-game insight is appreciated. The Vets are an interesting exception, since they're a 'kill team' in keyword only, but I still did not run any.

 

Thankfully, outside KTs, Eradicators have been absolute winners for me, to the point where they feel far better than they were in 9th. You can reliably split their fire now, and fire at the non-OOM target with full re-rolls to hits, wounds, and damage. Add an Apothecary Biologis for Lethal Hits, which is super powerful for a unit like this into tough targets, but adding a Gravis Captain alongside gives them credible melee that the Apothecary can use for the benefit of holding an objective. Surprisingly versatile, and it kinda chafes that this is achieved by pulling the actual unit out of a Kill Team.

 

I've also found Hellblasters to be surprisingly decent at anti...well, everything in a pinch. I ran them with an Apothecary and a Lieutenant in a Repulsor. Lethal Hits pushes through a lot of high AP damage, and the extra AP really makes a difference, I felt. Great combination with Furor Tactics providing Sustained Hits. Once again, not a Kill Team here. It seems like Kill Teams are a waste of time for us unless it's a Proteus or Vet unit. Honestly, this shouldn't really come as a surprise - 9th edition Primaris Kill Teams were junk too.

 

At this point, my Deathwatch are just Gladius with a twist, it seems.

 

Though I will disagree with the CP complaint. Marines are eating well here, I feel. A Captain can use a Strategem for no cost, even if it has already been used that turn. This is bigger than a single Command Point being generated as it means you can use a 2 Command Point Strategem for free and double up on units using them for added benefit. Not to mention you can just double up on Captains :D

Edited June 19, 2023 by Lemondish

[Feral_80]

I'm curious about your experience with plasma and melta. Both now seem good only vs small monsters/very heavy infantry, but not against real monsters and vehicles, which they wound on 5+.

Even the Eradicators' full rerolls do not seem much at 1 shot each.

Were you really able to take out big stuff with just these?

 

About captain's free stratagems: it's handy, but I see it more than an extra. Sometimes his unit does not really need a stratagem, so you use it as a bonus. Most of the time, my problem was not having enough CPs to use on other units which really needed some help...

[Lemondish]

For the Hellblasters, it isn't at the same clip they did in 9th without really leaning into it, but they can punch above their weight with the right application of buffs. They're definitely there for anti-infantry purposes, but in a pinch things like OoM, Lethal Hits from a LT, Sustained Hits from Mission Tactics, and a fantastic new support platform with the SS Thunderstrike, can all have them work wonders.

 

The Eradicators are for the non-Oath targets as they'll already re-roll everything, and thanks to the new Apothecary they also auto-wound with Lethal Hits. If you go Gladius instead, give the Biologis the Bolter Discipline enhancement so they auto-wound on 5+ to hit in Dev Doctrine with sustained hits. I admit it doesn't feel good to be told to take your Deathwatch and not play the new Deathwatch detachment though...

 

I haven't run the numbers, but they feel very consistent in providing strong, reliable anti-armour on infantry bodies when all is said and done. I don't see a lot of armies that have infantry options for that but they are true workhorses when you align the effects. SS Thunderstrikes are so clutch for this as well. Tag a target you want to, ahem Eradicate, and then you're wounding on 4's with full rerolls, which is statistically better than wounding on 3s baseline. Harder to achieve than in 9th, but it feels really good when multiple units are sort of overlapping there and it certainly beats the point and click destruction.

 

For the CP side of things, I can definitely see that. Would it make sense for you to add more captains, as weird as it sounds? I'm still kind of feeling out how the army plays so I may have been very cagey with stratagems thus far and really relied on the captain's unit heavily for them.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Lemondish