Wh40k 10th Edition Vehicles in 10th + Rhino Datasheet

[Lemondish]

9 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I’m hoping your right. Once I get over my initial disappointment I’m sure I’ll find something good about these changes. Like you say, tomorrow will hopefully fill in a lot of the blanks for us in terms of weapons. If there has been a general toning down of the weapon profiles then I think that will go a long way to assuaging my concern that they haven’t gone far enough in reducing lethality. 

I think the thing to keep in mind here is to consider any weapon changes within the context of the new toughness range for these vehicles. We do have some grey area for things like Monsters, but I don't see a reason why Monsters won't also be in that higher T range category.

 

For instance, Plasma could go up a pip of strength in 10th edition and it'll still be worse against the tough targets we saw previewed today. We saw Krak missiles go up in Strength earlier with the Terminator datacard, jumping from S8 to S9, but we now see a clearer picture today. It now can't wound even a lowly Rhino on the same roll it could in 9th edition.

 

Even if things look stronger on the surface in comparison to 8th, weapons are a tug of war between their offensive stats and the unit's defensive stats, and we just saw a pretty substantial jump for a number of units in 40k.

Don't lay off the gas on being skeptical, though - need more of that to temper my bounding optimism haha

Edited April 13, 2023 by Lemondish

[Arkangilos]

3 hours ago, SteveAntilles said:

It also has the keyword DEDICATED TRANSPORT. Maybe units will have the option again to buy a transport, and it just transports the unit that bought, regardless of unit size or anything? Would be a simple way to keep those pesky Primaris out of a Rhinos.

I think it is just so you aren’t limited to a max of 3. If it didn’t have the DT keyword you’d never be able to have more than three Rhinos. 
 

—

Not a fan of the vehicle rules. I like the higher toughness, but don’t like rest. I didn’t really like the 8th or 9th rules either. It should be once you do so much damage something on the vehicle breaks (lose a weapon or become immobile)

[tzeentch9]

19 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

 

 

Except it actually isn't a buff, at least not against its preferred targets. It's actually nerfed.

 

Today, hunter-killer missiles are baseline Str 10 AP-2 D6 damage. In the turn you're going to use them in, they'll be AP-3 from Doctrines so that evens out. They are also prime candidates for rerolls from your aura sources, something you'll have much more limited access to, if any. No vehicle (I think) is above T9 today, so a hunter-killer missile will always at least wound them all on 3s. However, we see that it can't do that in 10th edition as there will be some targets rocking T14. It may seem minor, but ultimately the fact that it isn't as effective in 10th edition against its main targets is a sign of being weakened, not stronger.

Hk don’t generally benefit from reroll auras currently and I believe the new ones hit on 2s, are always -3 ap and very few things will be t14. They are definitely getting an upgrade. A small one, but an upgrade. We have so idea how much they will cost in the new edition though, so if they are free they will be good, if they cost ten points, they won’t be. Too little is currently known

[Lemondish]

16 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

Hk don’t generally benefit from reroll auras currently and I believe the new ones hit on 2s, are always -3 ap and very few things will be t14. They are definitely getting an upgrade. A small one, but an upgrade. We have so idea how much they will cost in the new edition though, so if they are free they will be good, if they cost ten points, they won’t be. Too little is currently known

I fundamentally disagree. Their AP boost is irrelevant functionally, because despite it being different on the datasheets it is fundamentally the same in action in 9th edition. You will not fire a hunter-killer missile outside Devastation Doctrine today, and you're going to be firing these things early enough to force chip damage quickly anyway - that's the purpose of these one off weapons. You're encouraged to maximize their damage early otherwise your one use weapon may not fire if you die, may cause wasted damage if you don't fire it early against healthier targets, or may be unable to benefit from any buffs your units can bestow.

 

Very few things may be getting T14, but that's hardly a reason to ignore that they go from wounding all their targets on 3's to wounding most, but not all, their targets on 3's. This is a nerf.

 

Your argument boils down to "in this one specific instance, against this one type of target, if you use them terribly inefficiently, they're better!" which is just a silly thing to say, I'm sorry.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Lemondish

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, mel_danes said:

/\ This right here. Characters don't need to effect damage or accuracy to have an impact.

 

One of the things I liked about the Salamanders in 3rd edition was the Chaplain Xavier special character, who held their highest honor not because he was their most bloody-handed warrior, but the wisest among them. I like have character who can contribute without being combat monsters. Partially this is because I'm a long time Marine player and am used to almost every other faction having better beat-sticks.

 

59 minutes ago, sandrorect said:

 

Well, we have seen that krak missile have F9 (termi dataseth) and now we have seen that a rhino have T9, so it´s now wound at 4+

 

In 9th a krak wounds a rhino at 3+.

 

Also a bolter now wounds at 6+ to a rhino.

 

Yes, the game need more resilence, but antitanks weapons needs to be useful to destroy tanks or the tanks will be inmortal.

 

I expect the most changes to be to weapons on dedicated antitank platforms from the older 9th codexes will be brought up to par with heavy lascannon and lancer laser destroyer stats. Things like the heavy laser destroyer will probably get a boost to be like Railguns but perhaps without the mortal wound special rules. I could also see the invulnerable-ignoring rules for Rail-esque weapons being removed.

[Captain Coolpants]

I just hope they point vehicles appropriately. Otherwise we'll see tides ot rhino's again. 

[Skywrath]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.. on one end this is nice seeing more vehicles. However if vehicles have an OC count, in the meta with that toughness and the hatch rule, that is asking for vehicles to be broken with 10th launch. So mixed feelings about that... 

 

Oh and bodyblocking objectives with the mass of the tank is a thing, so we'll chalk one more point up to things being potentially broken. I do wonder what toughness the LR and other HH vehicles will be though. 

[Spyros]

Judging from the vehicles' toughness and krak missile going to S9, I can imagine that the super-krak of the desolators being at least S10, the lascannon probably S12, and so on.

Weapons like meltas, I can see them retaining S8 but gaining anti-vehicle 3+ or something similar.

[BrainFireBob]

1 hour ago, sandrorect said:

 

 

In 3rd edition the only diference between a captain, a chaplain and a Librarian was 1W and A for de captain (in the chapter master version, the captain version had the same stats) a buit in 4++ for the chaplain (you can put a IS to 1 captain in the army but for 40-50p ) and two litle psychic powers for the librarian.

 

In practice you only have 1 character, the diference was so minimal that you didn´t have any real opitions, everythings was the same.

 

In 4th edition they put somo extra rules: the captain gave his Ld to nearby units, chaplain had the reroll to hit on charge and more psychic powers. More real diferences that create real options. The problem was that captain rule was very small and the gamers prefer chaplains.

 

And finaly, in 9th edition nobody use chaos lords... beacuse a price demons are the same but better.

 

You can only have 1 and only 1 charater figther per army, if you put more you dont create more options, only more of the same. You need to differentiate the units and differentiate well.

The Librarian didn't have access to the iron halo, IIRC, and the chaplain got his power weapon for free. Captains had more wargear choices, Chaplains were a budget option, librarians were less durable but had an Instant Death! weapon for fighting characters. And the ability to deny psychic powers. 

 

Not quite no diversity

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Cant wait to see what the fire deck rating for my stormlord will be now.

 

it would be pretty dope to use it to shoot a whole HWS or two of HBs out of it.

[Rhavien]

Guys, powerfists are wounding all those vehicles only on 5+ now! Looking at my all-chainfist tartaros terminators with a big grin 

[tzeentch9]

41 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

I fundamentally disagree. Their AP boost is irrelevant functionally, because despite it being different on the datasheets it is fundamentally the same in action in 9th edition. You will not fire a hunter-killer missile outside Devastation Doctrine today, and you're going to be firing these things early enough to force chip damage quickly anyway - that's the purpose of these one off weapons. You're encouraged to maximize their damage early otherwise your one use weapon may not fire if you die, may cause wasted damage if you don't fire it early against healthier targets, or may be unable to benefit from any buffs your units can bestow.

 

Very few things may be getting T14, but that's hardly a reason to ignore that they go from wounding all their targets on 3's to wounding most, but not all, their targets on 3's. This is a nerf.

 

Your argument boils down to "in this one specific instance, against this one type of target, if you use them terribly inefficiently, they're better!" which is just a silly thing to say, I'm sorry.

 

 

 

 

This is just not true. You often shoot hunter killers out of devastator doctrine currently, because unless you are if or ih you are probably not at staying in devastator and there are probably no good targets first turn. 2s to hit and 99% of the time threes to wound is just better than threes and threes. That’s just basic maths

[acrozatarim]

In case people are missing it, I'd point out that the article says the fire deck rule indicates the number of embarked units who can fire out of it, not the number of models.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Kastor Krieg said:

2 units firing out of the top of the Rhino, presumably infantry and their assigned character?

MOST VEHICLES DO NOT DEGRADE?! A chance at non-degrading Dreadnaughts?! :o

My dreads never degraded :P

[Wispy]

4 hours ago, jimbo1701 said:

What the hell happened to that storm speeder - it got brundlefly’d with an old school speeder. 

looks like someone forgot to turn a layer off in photoshop.

[Cruor Vault]

1 hour ago, tzeentch9 said:

This is just not true. You often shoot hunter killers out of devastator doctrine currently, because unless you are if or ih you are probably not at staying in devastator and there are probably no good targets first turn. 2s to hit and 99% of the time threes to wound is just better than threes and threes. That’s just basic maths

 

You forgot part of your basic maths lol... 

 

Currently 3's and 3's will get re-rolls almost all the time.  Resulting in 60% of shots wounding.  

 

2's and 3's with no re-rolls (since they seem to be gone outside of OTM) results in 55% of shots wounding.

 

1 hour ago, acrozatarim said:

In case people are missing it, I'd point out that the article says the fire deck rule indicates the number of embarked units who can fire out of it, not the number of models.

 

I can't imagine that is anything but a typo.  Rhinos had a 2 person firing point in prior editions, and likely will again in 10th.

[Metzombie]

13 minutes ago, Cruor Vault said:

Currently 3's and 3's will get re-rolls almost all the time.

Rhinos are not Core so they will not get rerolls. They may hitting on 2+ with a techmarine but that is all.

[tzeentch9]

19 minutes ago, Cruor Vault said:

 

You forgot part of your basic maths lol... 

 

Currently 3's and 3's will get re-rolls almost all the time.  Resulting in 60% of shots wounding.  

 

2's and 3's with no re-rolls (since they seem to be gone outside of OTM) results in 55% of shots wounding.

 

 

I can't imagine that is anything but a typo.  Rhinos had a 2 person firing point in prior editions, and likely will again in 10th.

Where on earth are you getting rerolls from? Thin air?

[Urauloth]

It looks like plasma is for heavy infantry and monsters now.
I wonder what we'll see in the way of AT solutions for Death Guard, I'm guessing it's mostly going to be meltas.

[sandrorect]

1 hour ago, BrainFireBob said:

The Librarian didn't have access to the iron halo, IIRC, and the chaplain got his power weapon for free. Captains had more wargear choices, Chaplains were a budget option, librarians were less durable but had an Instant Death! weapon for fighting characters. And the ability to deny psychic powers. 

 

Not quite no diversity

 

No, no diversity at all.

 

All diferences that you said are not correct: in 3rd edition a Librarian can have iron halo and the force weapon was 40p for a character of 60p base: you don´t use force weapons in librarians (or 25p physic hoods).

 

And Captain don´t have more wargear choices because in this edition all wargear can be use by all characters (except a few exceptions, like force weapons or banners) so a chaplain and a comander (captain 2wound option) with power weapon and a Iron halo are exactly the same, same atributes, same rules (none at all)... except the chaplain cost 70p and a comander 85p (45 base, 15 for a power weapon and 25p for iron halo) 

 

You don´t use captain or librarian in 3rd edition, because a chaplain are the same for less cost.

 

This is the reason the character are get more rules as the editions advance: for a necesity, for create a diversity in them so there is a reason to using them. So if we reduce the special rules you don´t need lieutenants, you don´t need chaplains, you don´t need champions´s company or you don´t need ancinets. Because all will be the same character.

 

 

[Noserenda]

Wasnt the default librarian power essentially a lascannon in 3rd? Been a while obviously, and there were multiple army lists in the period but i definitely remember some differences between characters and people fielding all of them though chaplains were definitely popular.

[Holier Than Thou]

The article also says Rhinos are more survivable against Melta. Considering Melta currently needs a 3+ to wound a Rhino, that means Melta must either stay Strength 8 needing 5s now or moved to Strength 9 needing 4s. That doesn’t seem right for the premier anti-armour weapon.

[sandrorect]

10 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Wasnt the default librarian power essentially a lascannon in 3rd? Been a while obviously, and there were multiple army lists in the period but i definitely remember some differences between characters and people fielding all of them though chaplains were definitely popular.

 

Range 12" Asault 1 F4 FP2 area

 

Not a laser canon precisely (and you need to hit)

 

And i have the 3rd edition codex in front on me now, and the characters are 98% the same and these minimal diference doesn´t matter because the only thing they do is kill things, so you use the most efficient option.

 

 

[Mandragola]

This is interesting stuff. I had clocked that the krak missiles the terminator cyclone fires are S9, which looked like a buff until now. If melta weapons are still S8 or 9 then vehicles will be much tougher and things like the gladiator won't be such crazy glass cannons.

 

Let's have a look at tomorrow's weapon article before rushing to judgement. That'll give us a better picture. Right now we have information on toughness but not strength.

 

I'd also like to see the to-wound chart. If it stays the same then you could end up with a weird situation where infantry weapons almost all wound almost all vehicles on a 5+. An autocannon at S7 and a krak missile at S9 would both wound a T10 or 12 vehicle on a 5+, for example. If that was the case, you'd actually lose a lot of granularity.

[zero888]

Rhino firing ports are back. I can't wait for next week's article introducing the revolutionary "scatter dice"!!!!!