How deeply is the importance of the Webway Project explored in BL works?

[b1soul]

To me, the Webway Project seems to be an important piece of the puzzle but not really the Emperor's crown jewel? Based on my inferences, the Emperor's plan seems to have been...

 

1. Unify humanity 

2. Stamp out mystical, religious thinking 

3. Replace it with scientific rationalism and deeply ingraine that rationalism over generations, including humanity's perspective of the Warp

4. Exterminate xenos who might physically threaten mankind or feed the Warp with their beliefs/activities

5. Eliminate reliance on the Warp for interstellar travel and communication

6. Bring about a "Calm Warp" of inanimate energy, and further evolve humans to become...emotionally controlled, hyper-rational psykers, kinda like the Emperor himself?

7. If human souls are devoured in the "Seething Warp" upon physical death, what are the possibilities for the souls of evolved humans in a Calm Warp? Could the Imperium literally expand into the spiritual plane?

 

It seems #5 is helpful, as it results in less Warp exposure among humans, but isn't quite the absolute cornerstone of the Emperor's great work? Is this elaborated upon in any BL work? I don't think Master of Mankind fully explained it? Understandable as some mystery is liked by many readers. Maybe more recent BL fiction has touched upon this?

Edited April 16, 2023 by b1soul

[wecanhaveallthree]

The Webway Project is - and I'm not poking at you here, b1, you're great, just a general observation! - another source of incredible 'missing the point' from the fandom.

 

And, funnily enough, that's caused by the setting itself. We're so wrapped up in the mysticality, the 'rules' of the setting, rather than looking at it from the most obvious science fiction explanation. It's the same problem that plagues the modern Imperium. A lack of reliable, coherent communication and travel. Logistics isn't sexy. It's not great heroes battling among dying stars. But it is the most powerful apparatus of coordination and, just as we discussed with the Imperial Truth, control. It's much easier to worry less about Terra and the Emperor if you're light years from retribution, it's a lot easier to let things slide or for laws to be bent or broken at the edges. 

 

When a compliance force can be on your world in a few hours from discovery and judgement, you keep your house clean. When you've got inspectors breathing down your neck for those latest tithes, you don't let the schedule slip. When you've got iterators and propagandists and [insert mainstream news channel of your choice] IN SPACE on every street corner, your culture homogenises. 

 

The Webway Project turns the idea of an Imperium - otherwise a fairly loose connection of systems at the whim of time and Warp tide, many necessarily self-sufficient by their distance - into a hard reality. There are positives to that too, of course. You can mass educate, you can stomp out corruption, you can shine a light into all the dark places. You can even see the eventual return of power to a connected, enlightened people. The Emperor has said before he wishes to step down from a leadership role (and as we've seen through our glimpses of human history, he's always preferred to stay in the shadows, working with other Perpetuals). Certainly we see at least lip service to that idea through the Council of Terra, and their successors in the High Lords. The Emperor's stated goal of 'pure psychic race', a post-physical evolution, is a long way down the line. The immediate impact of the Webway Project - and what makes it the cornerstone - is how it binds the disparate Imperium together and enables central government, authority and control.

 

Your last point (7) is one that GW has been very coy about in recent years.

 

Both Guilliman and the Khan have suggested very strongly that they could wage war in the Warp. They were possibly even built for it. As we saw with Horus' adventure in Vengeful Spirit, he appears to have been able to enter the Warp and do enormous battle there for some time. Russ' odyssey through the Underverse in Wolfsbane and his contact with... uh, we don't know... suggests this is quite possible as well. Consider as recently as Godblight that we had a Primarch scar Nurgle permanently, in the Garden, as a warning, with the Power unable - or unwilling - to do anything about it.

 

Very much food for future thought.

[Moonreaper666]

5 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

The Webway Project is - and I'm not poking at you here, b1, you're great, just a general observation! - another source of incredible 'missing the point' from the fandom.

 

And, funnily enough, that's caused by the setting itself. We're so wrapped up in the mysticality, the 'rules' of the setting, rather than looking at it from the most obvious science fiction explanation. It's the same problem that plagues the modern Imperium. A lack of reliable, coherent communication and travel. Logistics isn't sexy. It's not great heroes battling among dying stars. But it is the most powerful apparatus of coordination and, just as we discussed with the Imperial Truth, control. It's much easier to worry less about Terra and the Emperor if you're light years from retribution, it's a lot easier to let things slide or for laws to be bent or broken at the edges. 

 

When a compliance force can be on your world in a few hours from discovery and judgement, you keep your house clean. When you've got inspectors breathing down your neck for those latest tithes, you don't let the schedule slip. When you've got iterators and propagandists and [insert mainstream news channel of your choice] IN SPACE on every street corner, your culture homogenises. 

 

The Webway Project turns the idea of an Imperium - otherwise a fairly loose connection of systems at the whim of time and Warp tide, many necessarily self-sufficient by their distance - into a hard reality. There are positives to that too, of course. You can mass educate, you can stomp out corruption, you can shine a light into all the dark places. You can even see the eventual return of power to a connected, enlightened people. The Emperor has said before he wishes to step down from a leadership role (and as we've seen through our glimpses of human history, he's always preferred to stay in the shadows, working with other Perpetuals). Certainly we see at least lip service to that idea through the Council of Terra, and their successors in the High Lords. The Emperor's stated goal of 'pure psychic race', a post-physical evolution, is a long way down the line. The immediate impact of the Webway Project - and what makes it the cornerstone - is how it binds the disparate Imperium together and enables central government, authority and control.

 

Your last point (7) is one that GW has been very coy about in recent years.

 

Both Guilliman and the Khan have suggested very strongly that they could wage war in the Warp. They were possibly even built for it. As we saw with Horus' adventure in Vengeful Spirit, he appears to have been able to enter the Warp and do enormous battle there for some time. Russ' odyssey through the Underverse in Wolfsbane and his contact with... uh, we don't know... suggests this is quite possible as well. Consider as recently as Godblight that we had a Primarch scar Nurgle permanently, in the Garden, as a warning, with the Power unable - or unwilling - to do anything about it.

 

Very much food for future thought.

 

Those are the exceptions not the rule

 

The Emperor wasted a lot of his limited power reviving Guilliman. That trick he did against Nurgle won't on him or the other Chaos Gods a second time

 

Khârn has never died post-Heresy while Celestine has die countless times, losing and dying once to Khârn. The Betrayer is only blessed by Khorne

[wecanhaveallthree]

I enjoy your posts, Moonreaper, so it's great to get an opportunity to engage with you.

 

Let's extrapolate this idea a little. Not to derail the post overmuch, since I think it's been very solidly established at this point that entities - in this case, the Primarchs - can enter and do battle within the Warp (I missed Sanguinius' jaunt in Fear to Tread, incidentally, so I'll include that here as well). The Emperor knows that Chaos isn't going to simply vanish because people get a bit smarter, or the Imperium gets a bit closer together via the Webway. Chaos is, if not a cosmological constant, then certainly fortified within the Warp. Consider their timeless nature, and think of the metaphor as another siege. The Powers are well-provisioned. Starving them out isn't a realistic option, especially when it's not in any way a permanent solution. They'll always be there, in some form, ready to come back for anuvva go as soon as some poor sap on Mudball XII starts praying for another potato.

 

The only realistic solution appears to be confrontation within the Warp, if not establishing bulwarks or beachhead there. We see this happen numerous times through the Heresy. The Primarchs seem almost tailor-made to do this, stepping easily from one world to the other. 

 

But let's turn from the Primarchs for this post. I think I've already made my case there, and don't need to rehash it.

 

Let's consider the Eldar. That's always fun.

 

Consider their pantheon, and consider their mythos. Consider, too, the musing of Yvraine on the underpinnings of that mythology. Were the gods just old mortals, rendered huge through the lens of history? Or were they actual figures who held dominion in or over the Warp? The myths certainly suggest they did, particularly with their withdrawal from the affairs of the Eldar after they caused too much of a ruckus. Consider the idea of the great Infinity Circuits, the constant return of Eldar souls before Slaanesh subverted the divine machinery. Consider, too, the accounts of the fall, and how Slaanesh is said to have battled and broken the Eldar gods. Did they truly guard the gate? Did they fight to defend Eldar souls? Is Isha a real thing, a real creature, trapped in Nurgle's Garden - or just a metaphor? 

 

The nature of the Phoenix Lords certainly suggests a deal of truth to 'Eldar gods fought in the Warp', and in the Wars in Heaven. Yvraine's musings of her Ynnari being bootstrapped into a new pantheon, or at least mantling the old one - perhaps even a vehicle for their return - is fascinating as well. The Eldar were made to battle Chaos. It certainly stands to reason that the Old Ones thought of this problem at least as far as the Emperor has, and that striking at the very heart of the Powers was necessary. 

[b1soul]

Better logistics and centralised control would be the most direct benefits of the Webway, and would facilitate the Imperium's multiple objectives holistically.

It could just be me, but reading BL works I always got the impression the desire to drop Warp travel was motivated by the tendency of the Warp to taint human minds traveling through it, but I like your explanation better, wecanhaveallthree

 

I still think this jives with my thought that the Webway Project is an important piece of the puzzle...a critical tool even, but not some anti-Chaos panacea. Admittedly, BL may not have implied that, and I could've been misleading myself. 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I enjoy your posts, Moonreaper, so it's great to get an opportunity to engage with you.

 

Let's extrapolate this idea a little. Not to derail the post overmuch, since I think it's been very solidly established at this point that entities - in this case, the Primarchs - can enter and do battle within the Warp (I missed Sanguinius' jaunt in Fear to Tread, incidentally, so I'll include that here as well). The Emperor knows that Chaos isn't going to simply vanish because people get a bit smarter, or the Imperium gets a bit closer together via the Webway. Chaos is, if not a cosmological constant, then certainly fortified within the Warp. Consider their timeless nature, and think of the metaphor as another siege. The Powers are well-provisioned. Starving them out isn't a realistic option, especially when it's not in any way a permanent solution. They'll always be there, in some form, ready to come back for anuvva go as soon as some poor sap on Mudball XII starts praying for another potato.

 

The only realistic solution appears to be confrontation within the Warp, if not establishing bulwarks or beachhead there. We see this happen numerous times through the Heresy. The Primarchs seem almost tailor-made to do this, stepping easily from one world to the other. 

 

But let's turn from the Primarchs for this post. I think I've already made my case there, and don't need to rehash it.

 

Let's consider the Eldar. That's always fun.

 

Consider their pantheon, and consider their mythos. Consider, too, the musing of Yvraine on the underpinnings of that mythology. Were the gods just old mortals, rendered huge through the lens of history? Or were they actual figures who held dominion in or over the Warp? The myths certainly suggest they did, particularly with their withdrawal from the affairs of the Eldar after they caused too much of a ruckus. Consider the idea of the great Infinity Circuits, the constant return of Eldar souls before Slaanesh subverted the divine machinery. Consider, too, the accounts of the fall, and how Slaanesh is said to have battled and broken the Eldar gods. Did they truly guard the gate? Did they fight to defend Eldar souls? Is Isha a real thing, a real creature, trapped in Nurgle's Garden - or just a metaphor? 

 

The nature of the Phoenix Lords certainly suggests a deal of truth to 'Eldar gods fought in the Warp', and in the Wars in Heaven. Yvraine's musings of her Ynnari being bootstrapped into a new pantheon, or at least mantling the old one - perhaps even a vehicle for their return - is fascinating as well. The Eldar were made to battle Chaos. It certainly stands to reason that the Old Ones thought of this problem at least as far as the Emperor has, and that striking at the very heart of the Powers was necessary. 

 

I think there is an issue of timing here.

 

The Warp being a place of energy, of thought, souls, the War in Heaven was not fought exactly there, but (depending on which War in Heaven) either Webway, or on Daemon worlds.

 

The whole issue was the Eldar and Orks, fighting for the Old Ones against the Necrons, and being psyker races causing the tides to get riled up?

 

I think there is certainly something there, but unfortunately its all been retconned and muddied up too many times.

[wecanhaveallthree]

b1, again no offence intended in the slightest, but you're making the same mistake a lot of the fandom does (at least that I've seen).

 

The Webway is an anti-Chaos tool, the most critical tool, but not in the sense that it's a weapon whose trigger can be pulled to immediately and completely destroy the Ruinous Powers. Consider the most common issue we see crop up in the modern Imperium. Some cult somewhere on some ignorant planet schmooze it up, get into positions of power - or the local authorities are too dumb or too thin to see the warning signs - and bam! Demons out the wazoo! Good grief, if only someone could have prevented this! If only they'd known! If only help had been closer! 

 

That's what the Webway Project does. Yes, it absolutely removes humanity's reliance on the Warp and that possibility for corruption (and, coincidentally, the mutant Navigators and their stranglehold on commerce - what a shame), but the greatest weapon against Chaos isn't just knowing what to look for, it's being able to get the proper people to deal with it. No, you don't want your average Imperial citizen to know how to throw up warding runes. You do want an organisation like the Ordo Malleus or the Grey Knights to be able to hop on over and check it out. Chaos is going to find it much harder to take root in an educated, aware population, and when it does, it'll have the door kicked down almost immediately.

 

I heard a great quote on the nature of Chaos: "Chaos is water; it tests weakness, flows into the cracks of every ordered plan."

 

That's essentially true. Chaos wears away at the edges. It thrives sight unseen. The Webway Project gives it nowhere to hide, nowhere to fester and burn and scheme and urge. And if - when! - it does, it never gathers the momentum it needs.

 

Scribe, not to get all WHAT WAS WILL BE, WHAT WILL BE WAS on you, but I think it's probably best to consider the War(s) in Heaven much like Elder Scrolls Dragon Breaks. A whole bunch of things can be true simultaneously. Slaanesh created the conditions for his own birth; Abnett's Dark King is doing the same through the Heresy. The Powers are - to borrow another term (thank you, Seth Dickinson!)  - paracausal entities. Indeed, most Warp beings are. We see that from the perspective of the Watchers in the Dark in Dreadwing. It doesn't really matter where they came from, because their creation, unveiling, whatever, was assured by themselves.

 

This is where things get really interesting, and has always been a pet theory of mine. The Emperor could very well have been trying to achieve CHIM reach a similar kind of power. I've read more than a few God-Emperor theories, and hey, that dovetails really neatly, doesn't it? The God-Emperor ensures his own creation, in the same way Slaanesh engineered hers. A force of immutable Order that has now always existed, always in opposition to Chaos, forward and back through time. The balance The-Thing-That-Was-Guilliman talks about in Godblight, perhaps. 

 

Which returns, happily, to the Ynnari and the Eldar pantheon. Yvraine suggests it's the gods come again. Maybe so.

[EverythingIsGreat]

I thought the Webway is a sort-of walled interdimensional path, more of a journey than a destination. Being part of neither dimension it can also act as buffer-space. The way I understand the Webway Project, this was the emperor's effort to make the Webway exclusive property of the Imperium, with all the purported benefits. As such, it was only indirectly an anti-Chaos campaign, although its successful conclusion would deprive Chaos of nutrients. IIRC the original intent of the Webway was supposedly instant, safe transit (physical and/or signals-based) and had nothing to do with whether the Warp was infected by Chaos or not.

[Karhedron]

Master of Mankind certainly implies that the Webway project was not merely important but crucial. When the Imperial forces are driven out of the Webway, the Emperor is despondent and uncertain in a way that terrifies the Custodes. Thus whatever we think about the relative importance of the list of factors in the OP, the novels clearly try to imply that the Emperor considered the Webway project paramount.

[Scribe]

I have many thoughts on this in my Grand Unified Theory of 40K. I'll see if I can get it  together. 

[Arkangilos]

8 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Scribe, not to get all WHAT WAS WILL BE, WHAT WILL BE WAS on you, but I think it's probably best to consider the War(s) in Heaven much like Elder Scrolls Dragon Breaks.

(Real world stuff to lead into 40K stuff to explain how I see the “timeless” nature of the warp)

In Catholic Thomistic Angelology and Demonology there are basically three parts where things exist. 

Eternity (has no beginning and end), Time (has beginning and end, measured by movement of matter), and the Aevum   (has a beginning but no end). 
Angels exist in the Aevum, which is measured by action. So an Angel’s action (and demons, since they are fallen angels) are measured not by movement of matter (since they have no matter), but by action. An angels fiftieth act may take place in the year 1,500, but their fifty-first act may take place in the year 600. The act has a sequential order but is not bound by time.
 

The way I picture the Daemon’s working is the same. Slaanesh has a definite beginning, the fall of the Eldar. But Slaanesh, existing in the Warp, can act outside of time and so they can act prior to our time (basically I would say the warp would be the Aevum, an immaterial spiritual realm where time is meaningless, which is why one can arrive from the warp before they even left).
 

I agree with everything you said regarding the webway, though. I just never really liked the “once it existed it always existed” line.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

18 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I have many thoughts on this in my Grand Unified Theory of 40K. I'll see if I can get it  together. 

Do it!

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

I agree with everything you said regarding the webway, though. I just never really liked the “once it existed it always existed” line.

 

The corollary from this is, of course, if something were to stop existing, then it would never have existed, no?

 

So either Chaos is immutable - it has never been and never will be defeated - or the Warp does have causal constraints. That's why Quaramar is such an interesting character. For those who don't recall, Quaramar is the first big daemon Guilliman encounters in Dark Imperium. After a bit of a scuffle, the Emperor's Sword is unleashed and Quaramar is put down seemingly permanently. Fair cop, that was the point of the Sword and what makes the Emperor such a threat to Chaos: True Death.

 

However, in Plague Wars, we understand that Quaramar is actually alive and well. Why? Well, apparently Quaramar needs to be at the end of time or something. There is something Quaramar has to see happen, and so it can't be destroyed until that point in time, even by the Emperor's Sword which is powerful enough to kill everything else and permanently wound Nurgle (however slight). This is a big snarl in our understanding of the Warp. We spent most of the Horus Heresy talking about fate, whether certain things must happen, whether events are set in stone or in flux. Characters like Curze believe things are wholly predestined; characters like Sanguinius believe otherwise. The Emperor seems to believe there's a middle ground, but some things must happen to prevent something worse (Outcast Dead). Is the 40K setting deterministic? Is it a series of timey-wimey tubes? Can any true understanding be wrung from it? 

 

I dunno. Fun to argue about on the internet, though.

 

I'd look forward to your Big Theory too, Scribe! 

[EverythingIsGreat]

Suspension of disbelief is a common requirement for the fantasy audience, but a certain rationale for such suspension must be given if the project is to be successful. For example, faster-than-light travel is unbelievable in "real" space, but is rationalized by the existence of another dimension/universe that has different space-time properties. As the "real" universes's time has no meaning there, what is needed is 1. a way to transit to that other universe and 2. correctly use that universe's properties to bypass the "real" universe's properties.

I put "real" in quotes because from the standpoint of fantasy fiction both universes are real.

I think that the lore shows that the innate properties of warpspace such as the "alien" space-time of warp currents are independent of chaos, although there is interaction and mutual influence.

If the webway was built in pre-chaotic warp, this can be explained as a far more stable navigation instrument than following warp currents. The fact that it has properties of both (and maybe other, innate ones) is a neat trick.

The warpuniverse seems to be natively non-rational in the sense that it does not conform to "real"space cause-effect relationships or cognition characteristics, but this may or may not be only the perspective of characters in realspace.

[Moonreaper666]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:37 PM, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

The corollary from this is, of course, if something were to stop existing, then it would never have existed, no?

 

So either Chaos is immutable - it has never been and never will be defeated - or the Warp does have causal constraints. That's why Quaramar is such an interesting character. For those who don't recall, Quaramar is the first big daemon Guilliman encounters in Dark Imperium. After a bit of a scuffle, the Emperor's Sword is unleashed and Quaramar is put down seemingly permanently. Fair cop, that was the point of the Sword and what makes the Emperor such a threat to Chaos: True Death.

 

However, in Plague Wars, we understand that Quaramar is actually alive and well. Why? Well, apparently Quaramar needs to be at the end of time or something. There is something Quaramar has to see happen, and so it can't be destroyed until that point in time, even by the Emperor's Sword which is powerful enough to kill everything else and permanently wound Nurgle (however slight). This is a big snarl in our understanding of the Warp. We spent most of the Horus Heresy talking about fate, whether certain things must happen, whether events are set in stone or in flux. Characters like Curze believe things are wholly predestined; characters like Sanguinius believe otherwise. The Emperor seems to believe there's a middle ground, but some things must happen to prevent something worse (Outcast Dead). Is the 40K setting deterministic? Is it a series of timey-wimey tubes? Can any true understanding be wrung from it? 

 

I dunno. Fun to argue about on the internet, though.

 

I'd look forward to your Big Theory too, Scribe! 

 

I doubt the Emperor's Sword would work the same against powerful Daemons like Angron, Shalaxi, Doombreed, Prisoner of the Emerald Cave, Drach'nyen, Be'lakor, An'ngrath, etc

 

Shalaxi almost beheaded Guilliman in the Lore

 

Predestination is when a god-like being forces someone miniscule to be its puppet

[b1soul]

On 4/17/2023 at 12:22 AM, wecanhaveallthree said:

b1, again no offence intended in the slightest, but you're making the same mistake a lot of the fandom does (at least that I've seen).

 

The Webway is an anti-Chaos tool, the most critical tool, but not in the sense that it's a weapon whose trigger can be pulled to immediately and completely destroy the Ruinous Powers. Consider the most common issue we see crop up in the modern Imperium. Some cult somewhere on some ignorant planet schmooze it up, get into positions of power - or the local authorities are too dumb or too thin to see the warning signs - and bam! Demons out the wazoo! Good grief, if only someone could have prevented this! If only they'd known! If only help had been closer! 

 

That's what the Webway Project does.

 

I'm rather confused now...think we agree, so not sure what's the mistake. Maybe you're reading what I wrote in a way I didn't intend?

 

Yes, much better logistics includes much better logistics to be deployed against Chaos/pro-Chaos activities. More control is good from an Imperial perspective. As I said, the Webway could be seen as a critical tool.

 

EDIT 1: It's not a panacea in the sense that it's not an instant universal fix (again, not necessarily implied in BL and could just be my prior erroneous impression). Once the Webway Project is up, it doesn't guarantee victory over Chaos...and there would still be plenty of anti-Chaos monitoring and actions to do, but the Webway would give humanity a much-needed leg up, a good fighting chance so to speak. Without the Webway, the uphill battle would be so steep, even the Emperor finds it almost insurmountable.

 

EDIT 2: Another thought just struck me, apologies if it's totally off. If Daemons are like turbulence in the Warp, how much of that turbulence is caused by emotions felt in realspace and how much of that turbulence is caused by vessels churning up the Warp as they traverse it? If the latter is a thing, and a significant thing, it would be another good reason to drop Warp travel: it's relatively slow and unstable, it involves greater exposure to the Warp, and it churns up the Warp to humanity's detriment.

Edited April 18, 2023 by b1soul

[Scribe]

So, a few things.

 

We know, that there was a time when even the Shaman of Earth, before it was Terra, could reincarnate. We know that the ever increasing turbulence of the Warp, which is to say more the 'awakening' of the Warp, into true levels of sentience, was the cause of that change, which then lead to the birth of the being we know to be the Emperor.

 

If this turbulence came up, due to the various War in Heaven (is it 1, is it 2? I think its 1 really long one honestly) then it would stand to reason that it could also be made less so.

 

What causes this turbulence, is not just the act of travelling through it, though I believe that could be part of the issue as you will certainly arouse the attention of predators, if you move through their territory and disturb the waters.

 

The real issue is that there is all this commotion, and Humanity at large is not strong enough as a species, nor awakened at a species level, in terms of psychic power/control.

 

The Old Ones were born to it. The Warp was not an issue to the as they simply were part of it, had mastery of it. They STILL built the Webway, as a shortcut, a way to move across the Galaxy and maintain their mastery over both the Material, and Immaterial realms.

 

The Eldar, were uplifted/bioengineered, to wield the Warp. While the Old Ones had harmony with the Warp, the Eldar did not. The Eldar 'feel too strong', are too empathetic, too tapped in, and as a result of this, we see the rise of the first Gods of the Warp, the Eldar Gods.

 

The Warp was still not in a state of flux, the Eldar souls were still able to reincarnate, just as the Human Shaman would eons later. The Eldar Gods could, it is claimed be among their people, leave the Warp, I would argue as essentially souped up Daemons.

 

Things start to get weird, with the War in Heaven, and its no surprise as the 3rd Edition Necron's got some mighty retcons come their later Codex. Now, the War in Heaven, is a War to end all Wars. Its the Necrons, taking on the Galaxy, and we had the Old Ones, and eventually Eldar, and the Orks, as well as other xeno just out there getting caught in the middle.

 

Who do we know is the Oldest God? A God of War you say? Who seems to share the same hat maker? And what race was out there making little Warp Gods?

 

Khaine enters, stage left.

 

Khaine was a weapon, the God of War made manifest, and he kills the Nightbringer, but becomes tainted in the process. (God of War Khorne, Skulls, Nightbringer, Reaper -> Aspect, look into it.) This leads to Khaine getting a material form, as he merges with the necrodermis or is tainted by shards of it, its a bit hazy.

 

At that point, Khaine (certainly not Khorne...) is now mad, but ultimately its not relevant as War is War, and the Warp continues to be empowered.

 

Fast forward plenty of years, and we get our next weird interaction, the Birth of Slaanesh.

 

Slaanesh being born, 'kills' the other Eldar Gods, save for a few. Khaine is one that lives on, why?

 

Because while Khorne was trying to strangle Slaanesh and prevent the birth of his rival, Khaine was being ripped apart. No God can have two Masters, I think is how it goes, and so, the tainted shell that is Khaine, becomes shattered, leading to the creation of the Avatar's, Slaanesh still eats the rest, and Khorne is forever pissed off.

 

.... I have lost the thread here.

 

So why does all this matter?

 

Because the Webway, is a system of transportation that does not require the Warp. We already know that psyker souls 'glow brightly'. There is a reason the Eldar now have Soul Stones, and the Shaman of Earth decided a mass suicide was a better idea than getting eaten as snacks. The Old Ones had no issue however so what is the Emperors long term goal and why is the Webway important?

 

1. Control, as noted instant transportation across the Galaxy would be a great idea.

2. Humanity awakens, and rises to the power not of the Eldar, but of the Old Ones.

3. Reliance upon psykers that are currently sanctioned but dangerous, (Navigators, Astropath) would have been ended.

 

Essentially it would have allowed for a complete secularization of the Imperium, until such time as the Emperor could have guided Humanity to an ascension of biblical proportion.

 

1. Unite the Galaxy, end all war. -> Calm the tides of the Warp. Aka: The Gods.

2. Police the Galaxy, without use of the Warp. -> No more Daemonic invasion through your friendly postman or bus driver.

3. Guide Humanity to a psychic awakening. -> Humanity becomes defacto rulers of the Material and Immaterial realms.

 

So, the Webway, is essential the plan for getting the Galaxy under Human control, to a point that will allow for the species to awaken its psychic potential in a safe and controlled environment, and without it (end of Master of Mankind) its simply an impossible task.

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'll never pass up an opportunity to jam my headcanon in on top of someone. Sorry, Scribe, but you're the most convenient victim here.

 

THE WAR IN HEAVEN

 

I think the absolute best thing that's come out of 'new lore' is the idea that there wasn't one long 'War in Heaven'. That's just a mythological, historical construct, a hazy feeling based on a general - possibly even deliberate - lack of knowledge. History is written by the victors, and the Eldar were the 'victors' for millions of years. They're perfectly capable of self-deception, self-aggrandization and editing the less beautiful parts of their past when they're not outright forgetting it.

 

For me, that makes the 'prehistory' of the setting feel so much more alive. It gives us this sense of galactic community, of changing alliances and enmity, of races rising and falling (or being created) over time. There is no one, single inciting incident, no one single thing that kicked it all off. Wild Rider has the Necrontyr quite happily bopping about the galaxy, being able to consider the Aeldari critically as a creation of the Old Ones (who, at the time, don't appear to be existential enemies). The modern Necrons don't want to examine their own history too closely, either, because that means admitting they sold their souls for power (many unwillingly), and even though they've shoved their 'gods' into tiny metal boxes, they can never truly revenge themselves - or grow, or even reclaim what they had. Worse, the 'command protocols' certainly still exist in some form. They are a race of puppets, even if nobody's currently pulling the strings. Their existence is a particularly hollow one. Why would they want to really, critically examine what came before?

 

So we have a vast span of time where many species were contending, trading, talking, fighting for goals of their own making or those of their superiors. Rise and fall, war and peace, over millions of years, with uncountable races involved. We only have the unreliable recollections of the survivors, 'history' bent to their particular ends, but this truly adds to the great tragedy of 40K:

 

The galaxy was a thriving place, once. It was beautiful, it was complex, it was full of strangeness and difference. That War in Heaven - and those that followed - set the galaxy on the forever-narrowing path it's on today. Nobody has reached the 'heights' of the Old Ones for sixty-five million years. That's how bad it's been. 

 

"But wechat," you might say, "Isn't it weird how, like, the Old Ones were these incredible psychic architects, and works like the Webway have never been equalled or replicated?"

 

"Yeah dude," I reply, "That's literally my point, where are you going with this?"

 

"Well, I mean, what about Enuncia?"

 

"What?"

 

"I mean, Enuncia is this language that can do anything, and apparently it's so easy to use that even old humans had a full library of the stuff on Terra."

 

"Wait-"

 

"Why did they even do that if they had access to Enuncia?"

 

"Hold on a minute-"

 

"Like, if Enuncia is so powerful and so simple, why didn't humanity conquer the galaxy ages ago? Why were they still stuck on Terra?"

 

"That's not what I-"

 

"And if the Old Ones had access to Enuncia, how did they ever fail? Why did they even need something like the Eldar, when they could literally just talk daemons out of existence?"

 

"Surely if you just-"

 

"Seems kind of like a giant stinking plot hole in the setting that would have been far better isolated to some side-books rather than brought into the middle of the setting at large and knocking over a lot of previously-established lore, right?"

 

"Well it isn't quite-"

 

"And the Webway Project was totally doomed anyway because the Emperor couldn't even interface with it, let alone replicate it, as Vulkan observes in Echoes. The whole thing was impossible from the start. Except that he had Enuncia, right?"

 

"Look, it's not that-"

 

"So he could have just shouted the Webway into shape. Unless you're suggesting that the Old Ones didn't have Enuncia, and were somehow dumber than a bunch of random monkeys on a mudball. Is that what you're suggesting, wechat?"

 

"I-I-I-" I trail off into silence. "Shut up, hypothetical other."

 

"Very well."

 

...

 

"Oh yeah, and what about those daemon engines like the Plagueheart that apparently made the Webway in the first place-"

 

"SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP"

 

Ah, lore. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by wecanhaveallthree
reeeee

[EverythingIsGreat]

Certainly the thread covers many important/interesting points, however I am a bit sceptical on the War In Heaven mythology. Like all GW background that is removed from actual game play, it is liable to change seemingly at whim. Apart from providing a tenuous once-upon-a-time explanation for more concrete or fixed aspects of the setting I would be careful in using such prehistory as any more than a cauldron of ideas and possible future turns of the setting.

 

One thing I don't think has been remarked in this thread, is the time element. An aspect of it seems to flow in the Webway in neither realspace nor warpspace fashion, because it seemingly has rejuvenating properties, as if time there can go backwards. Or at least that is what several human and xenos (eldar) savants seem to think. Obviously the wraithbone material may have something to do with it. I wonder how that specific time property can be worked into the setting.

Edited May 4, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
mistype

[Scribe]

See thats an easy one.

 

Enuncia is just another poorly thought up addition by a certain author. Ignoring that is like waking up on a Tuesday. ;)

[lansalt]

My headcanon is that the Emperor's great 4d chess plan was about giving Chaos two equally bad choices/a bait and switch:

• If the Imperial Webway was not destroyed, it would have become the Golden Path, allowing imperials to move at will through the galaxy while ignoring the warp. Eventually allowing the Emperor to shield and empower humanity into a race of anathemas like him. Also, imagine the Horus Heresy without the Ruinstorm stopping the BA/DA/UM from reaching Terra. Remember how the WS were able to fight in the Siege.
• If the Imperial Webway was destroyed, the Emperor is "forced" to sit in the Throne and become pretty much a God against Chaos. A dark version of the Golden Path, with the Emperor being to humans what Slaanesh is to eldar, soul bound and eventually becoming like him (this is where all those acts of faith and saints come from, remember Horus Rising?).

[Scribe]

12 minutes ago, lansalt said:

My headcanon is that the Emperor's great 4d chess plan was about giving Chaos two equally bad choices/a bait and switch:

• If the Imperial Webway was not destroyed, it would have become the Golden Path, allowing imperials to move at will through the galaxy while ignoring the warp. Eventually allowing the Emperor to shield and empower humanity into a race of anathemas like him. Also, imagine the Horus Heresy without the Ruinstorm stopping the BA/DA/UM from reaching Terra. Remember how the WS were able to fight in the Siege.
• If the Imperial Webway was destroyed, the Emperor is "forced" to sit in the Throne and become pretty much a God against Chaos. A dark version of the Golden Path, with the Emperor being to humans what Slaanesh is to eldar, soul bound and eventually becoming like him (this is where all those acts of faith and saints come from, remember Horus Rising?).

 

Abnett seems to be taking us down your second option, but it doesnt seem to be something Chaos is against. We will see in the (please god) conclusion next book I suppose depending on what SHOCKING TWIST we get.

[lansalt]

10 minutes ago, Scribe said:

it doesnt seem to be something Chaos is against

That's the actual bait in my opinion. The Gods are happy thinking they're going to subvert the Emperor into becoming another god-devourer of souls with infinite hunger that personifies another aspect of mortal beings: The Dark King. But the Emperor counted on it since the start.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by lansalt

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'd suggest it's the opposite. The Webway Project is bait for Chaos. Vulkan walking through it in Echoes is massively sceptical that it would have lasted for any amount of time at all, and is already falling apart. Why is that important? Well, he didn't note this at all when he was coming through it the opposite way in Old Earth, so either it's a) something they just made up later on lmao or b) Vulkan is currently carrying some element of the Emperor with him (which is strongly suggested) and has access to some portion of the Emperor's insight. 

 

Chaos has absolutely no reason to do anything unless there's a credible, direct and immediate threat to them. The Webway Project certainly appears to be this, and it forces their hand before they've really got a good foundation to strike from. It ties neatly into the Emperor winding up Russ to go jab Horus with the Emperor's Spear, which allows/necessitates Chaos investing themselves into the Sacrificed King (wink wink). We also know that the Talisman of Seven Hammers will deal a 'mortal blow' to Chaos even if the Emperor fails, meaning that he's got the Ruinous Powers more or less where he wants them by this point in the story. He can strike directly at the Pantheon through their investment in Horus. If he succeeds, awesome, they're weakened/dead/whatever and he can proceed unhindered. If he loses, the Talisman goes off in a giant psychic explosion that doesn't just kill all the Traitors, it goes back out through the Webway Breach and slaps the Pantheon somehow.

 

The big question that remains is: well, what went so wrong that we got the current state of affairs, when stories like Outcast Dead or The Board Is Set show the Emperor ready and willing to die to achieve his goals?

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, lansalt said:

That's the actual bait in my opinion. The Gods are happy thinking they're going to subvert the Emperor into becoming another god-devourer of souls with infinite hunger that personifies another aspect of mortal beings: The Dark King. But the Emperor counted on it since the start.

 

 

Hmm. Not an interpretation I'm seeing based on the text, but we will see I guess. Is the set up there at all for this?

1 minute ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

The big question that remains is: well, what went so wrong that we got the current state of affairs, when stories like Outcast Dead or The Board Is Set show the Emperor ready and willing to die to achieve his goals?

 

*hanging my head dejectedly*

 

Are we sure there problem is not with those works? ;)