What does everyone think of 10th so far?

[Tacitus]

Judging from the Leaks, they're rearranging deck chairs to me - moving WS/BS to the weapon instead of the unit stat is pretty meh.

 

I'm concerned a lot of the flavor is going to disappear.  Without the Hive Mind, Death to the False Emperor, 'Ere We Go, Angels of Death and so on we could be playing this game with rolls of pocket change.  Intercessors are Quarters, Grots are Pennies, that shoe box is a Knight... 

 

I'm also worried we're going back to early 8th when Close Combat was an afterthought of the red-headed step child. 

 

The return of Twin Linked and Locked In "Command Squads" is also not inspiring confidence. 

 

I like that they've figured out vehicles need help, but their examples so far are also less than inspiring.  The Rhino Tank is less tough than the Primaris Speeder even though speeders are generally considered "fragile" in descriptions - and that same speeder is too close in toughness to the Gladius Tank. 

[Kallas]

17 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Judging from the Leaks, they're rearranging deck chairs to me - moving WS/BS to the weapon instead of the unit stat is pretty meh.

This change is fine, it's not impressive nor is it a problem. It puts all of the necessary information into one line instead of split between the weapon statline and then a weapon statline, which is good for people who need to reference the Datasheets frequently.

 

17 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

I'm concerned a lot of the flavor is going to disappear.  Without the Hive Mind, Death to the False Emperor, 'Ere We Go, Angels of Death and so on we could be playing this game with rolls of pocket change.  Intercessors are Quarters, Grots are Pennies, that shoe box is a Knight... 

I think this is an overreaction. I think some people feel like Red Marines should be the best at X, hands down, so all of their flavour should be applied in that vein (which is how we get Flanderisation, such as the Blood Angels having Blood Claws on their Blood Bolt firing Blood Bolters of Bloodness) but realistically there are so many Chapters good at different things that Good Melee Chapter shouldn't only be Blood flavoured; the best Bikers are arguably White Scars or Dark Angels Ravenwing, so there should be rules available to represent those, but with enough room to let people run their own Chapter as a "the best biker Chapter" army too.

 

This looks like what they're doing with the detachments, and while some flavour might be lost initially, we may very well see it come back with the Codexes, as we will likey get Chapter specific detachments that focus on, for example, the biker prowess of the White Scars - but not lock WS players into running only Bikers because their rules only benefit those units.

 

24 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

I'm also worried we're going back to early 8th when Close Combat was an afterthought of the red-headed step child. 

 

The return of Twin Linked and Locked In "Command Squads" is also not inspiring confidence. 

I disagree. I don't see much to support the concern about CC, and Twin Linked existed in 8/9th (just a flat doubling of shots, which increased lethality, and was probably a bad thing overall). Command Squads, eh, I'm skeptical but there's still a lot of unknown information that could significantly change how good/bad Leaders will be.

 

So I guess fundamentally: it's still too early to be too worried or happy. There's still tons unknown.

[Bouargh]

Based on the few info published, which is probably incomplete and offers only a partial view, I am not convinced at all.

We all see the cosmetic/editing rearrangment of the stuff, which per se is not a bad thing, but that is not going to simplify many thing on the whole life cycle of a game.

 

I mean: will we get a game phase that goes faster and does not need to consult 2-5-10 documents? Sure, at least initially. This is for the praised "streamlining".

But the pre-game phase will be I guess more complicated. The 2 sheet stuff is for me looking like a scam: you will have maybe half a dozen of these in each codex, or more maybe, then they will publish new one in WD, supplements... and it will be the same mess.

Then the datacard, well, we will see what is associated to this format, but if points, unit sizes and other details are widespread in other places, it is another mess - at each update -  because we will have to go through codice released, FAQs, balance dataslates... Others docs to be added.

 

Rule wise, the changes looks like an argentin tango: on step ahead, two step back.

Some rules a frankly looking like retroceeding to some game concepts prior to 8th. (for good or no, who knows...). While some other changes that we can see teased (Weapons rules with the example of intercessors, combining 2 traits, changes applied to Heavy...) make me uneasy: they look like more as of an experiment rather than a stabilization to me - why restore past rules but in a partial way, not as a whole? Past "balance" and Gameplay nfo will not be that useful if all metrics and paramters move at the same time.

Vehicles too are intriguing. 

 

Generaly speaking, I am not really convinced as the very partial and biaised info we have does not bring a big picture and teases more than explains. As for most communication exercices of the past (8th and 9th launches) I guess we will have to face some desilusioning times for some of these things anounced while some other changes not introduced will be better surprised. Everything so far looks like an political exercice of trying to convinc that "times they are a- changing" as said Art (o was it Paul?), but without a real change.

 

But wait and see...

Edited April 18, 2023 by Bouargh
Tipos and clarifications

[Captain Idaho]

In these early days, I can say I'm happy to hear GW talk about reducing the bloat in the game, but so far nothing has been introduced to actually do that. I welcome the easier manner of locating rules, but that's not reducing the mental load as such.

 

An example, moving the special rules from Strategums to the datasheets.

[Blindhamster]

I think it looks pretty good overall from what I’ve seen honestly, I’d also much prefer units have special abilities and stratagems get reduced, I find it makes the units more flavourful

[happyslugger]

I myself am intrigued and just hope it doesn't turn into codex creep (again) and needing 47 different books to stay relevant.

 

I think we may see more tanks / armoured vehicles on the table also - so that could be fun.

 

As with everything 40K related, I will wait and see how things unfold and assume there will be some batreps pop up on YT at some point in the not too distant future to  showcase some of the changes.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like the differences in the stats and weapon rules to be sufficient enough to cover flavour without everything having 2 special rules plus army special rules, but long as the game plays clean I don't mind.

 

I think the Terminators look fun to play. So they're something I deem a success. 

[phandaal]

If the game is more streamlined, I would see that as a win. Not expecting the lethality to be toned back at all really.

[Dracos]

Overall it’s way too soon to tell how all the pieces fit in the big picture. If you e been with us since 8th, take a deep breath. This is just the way it goes when they make “big” changes. To those of you who have been around before 8th, you should know better, patience. 
 

I have a slight issue with the “bit where’s my flavor?” crowd. Without realizing maybe you don’t realize how gate keeping that can come off as?  Why should your toys have special rules because they are red or green or black? To new players just starting that’s a hell of a commitment when deciding how to paint their Marines to be pigeoned holed into a play style they have no clue about. 
 

Just saying don’t let your love of the lore become judgmental of someone else who want to explore the different options of playing Marines (we all know Blood Angels and Imperial Fist are barely related) without painting up (you do want painted armies right?) 3 different armies.  

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Agreed. 

 

On one hand I get it, the things that draw us to our various Chapters are important to us, and a large part of a Chapter's identity is how they fight. This is a game about space men doing space fights, and so everything revolves around those fights. But I happen to be in the camp that thinks just having the ability to build proper melee Marines is more important than whether or not that build is locked to any one chapter.

 

For example, as a BT player I want the ability to be anti-psycher without taking psychers. Whether I get that through bespoke BT rules, or a Zealous Crusaders detachment, or a Faithful detachment, I don't really mind. It would be a shame if the option wasn't there at all, and I'd definitely be annoyed if we get options taken away to make all Marines play the same, but if the options still exist under another name then nothing is lost and all is well.

 

Hell, I'd even accept a character enhancement that gives an extra deny to a Librarian, or allows a non Librarian to deny as if he is one. Take that enhancement and slap it on a Chaplain, then build as Melee Marines and I'm golden.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Marshal Valkenhayn

[tychobi]

Looks ace to me! 10th has a lot of quality of life player support as a design pillar and that means new blood.  I can't wait for the wild times of sussing out the new index and free rules out the gate is so refreshing.  I am super interested to see how more subtle changes like missions shake things up.  

 

As for flavour?  Warhammer has never lacked for flavour. Bespoke rules do not define what is interesting for me in terms of 40k flavour. Getting creative with your minis to reflect the new reality of 10th will be super fun challenge!  I for one am looking forward to all of it.  BRING ON 10th!

[Marshal Reinhard]

Abbadon ruined terminators forever for me. 10th brought them back.

 

All hail our new 10th overlords.

[Sea Creature]

Looks good to me so far. Still a ways to go though.

[phandaal]

3 hours ago, Dracos said:

I have a slight issue with the “bit where’s my flavor?” crowd. Without realizing maybe you don’t realize how gate keeping that can come off as?  Why should your toys have special rules because they are red or green or black? To new players just starting that’s a hell of a commitment when deciding how to paint their Marines to be pigeoned holed into a play style they have no clue about.

 

That is not how I am seeing the "where's my flavor" responses. People are saying - I want my White Scars to have biker rules, and I want my Black Templars to have templar rules, and so on.

 

No one (that I have seen anyway) is saying they want you to have to paint your Marines white in order to use White Scars rules, or black to use Black Templars rules.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Most of the changes and rules so far are very sharp and clean cut, and I can tell what kind of issues they're attempting to address. For what we've seen so far, it looks to me like someone spent a decent amount of time actually thinking about it.

[Tacitus]

22 hours ago, Kallas said:

 

I think this is an overreaction. I think some people feel like Red Marines should be the best at X, hands down, so all of their flavour should be applied in that vein (which is how we get Flanderisation, such as the Blood Angels having Blood Claws on their Blood Bolt firing Blood Bolters of Bloodness) but realistically there are so many Chapters good at different things that Good Melee Chapter shouldn't only be Blood flavoured; the best Bikers are arguably White Scars or Dark Angels Ravenwing, so there should be rules available to represent those, but with enough room to let people run their own Chapter as a "the best biker Chapter" army too.

 

I disagree.  Red Marines shouldn't be best at X - they should be one of the best at X, Y and maybe Z, and most of their "flavor" should emphasize X, Y, and maybe Z.  Most of the Chapters have been given a flavor focus in this way - Wolves get bikes, dreads, and non-jump melee, DA get Death, Raven, and plasma.  Blood Angels get Terminators, Jump Assault, and Speeders.  Scars have bikes and transports, (Imperial) Fists have bolters and Seige.   Ultras have the kitchen sink.  The flanderisation you speak of is not a result of flavor, but of lazy writers and lazy players getting on the same page.  

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

But I happen to be in the camp that thinks just having the ability to build proper melee Marines is more important than whether or not that build is locked to any one chapter.

 

I've got some bad news for you:  IF - I said IF - Bolter Drill, Shock Assault etc are gone, melee marines are going to be in trouble.  Remember when 8th Landed and they took away all the +1A universal rules?  Two melee weapons (including pistols), charged, etc?  Shock Assault was basically to replace the Charge bonus.  One thing that happens time and time again when GW rolls out the paradigm shift editions is that they don't dive below the surface level changes.  That's why Assault Marines were in the doghouse so long.  They have a tendency to balance melee as if its as easy to melee someone every turn as it is to shoot them - even as they make it almost impossible to Deepstrike, transport etc into melee. 

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

That is not how I am seeing the "where's my flavor" responses. People are saying - I want my White Scars to have biker rules, and I want my Black Templars to have templar rules, and so on.

 

No one (that I have seen anyway) is saying they want you to have to paint your Marines white in order to use White Scars rules, or black to use Black Templars rules.

I split the baby on that front.  People should absolutely be able to paint whatever scheme they want and use (most of) an established "Chapter Flavor" so to speak.  I mean obviously they can't do first founding etc, so they'd have to re-fluff a little for consistency.  Where I go the other way is (most) special characters.  Calgar/Dante/Azrael/etc are unique and they are their chapter.   I'd love to see a DIY named creator with a dozen or so different options for a dozen or so pieces of wargear and special rules slots.  Something that allows limited customization for a special character but is balanced to prevent the Min Max abuse that was the first thing you thought of when you heard it.   I think the Primarchs should be Primarch of the X Legion and any chapter from that legion using that legion's flavor gets Bonuses X Y and/or Z.   Does anyone think the Novamarines are less inspired by G than the Ultras? 

[Kallas]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I disagree.  Red Marines shouldn't be best at X - they should be one of the best at X, Y and maybe Z, and most of their "flavor" should emphasize X, Y, and maybe Z.  Most of the Chapters have been given a flavor focus in this way - Wolves get bikes, dreads, and non-jump melee, DA get Death, Raven, and plasma.  Blood Angels get Terminators, Jump Assault, and Speeders.  Scars have bikes and transports, (Imperial) Fists have bolters and Seige.   Ultras have the kitchen sink.  The flanderisation you speak of is not a result of flavor, but of lazy writers and lazy players getting on the same page.  

I guess my point is, is if we get a Siege detachment, where there are bonuses for bringing Vindicators and against enemy buildings and Fortifications, is it a problem if it's not specifically Imperial Fist flavoured? Should Imperial Fists only get Siege-flavoured detachments? Similarly, should there be Biker detachment, should it be White Scar flavoured? Ravenwing flavoured?

 

Assuming that these detachments are based on certain themes (which appears to be what they're aiming for, but we still have very limited information so far), should Chapters have bespoke detachments? For example, assuming that there's a kind of Outrider/Fast Attack-style detachment focusing on Bikers and Speeders, should the White Scars then get a specific Super-Biker detachment, or is it enough that there is an Outrider-style Biker-focused detachment that people can run their White Scars as - but also people don't have to be White Scars specifically to run it, because maybe their personal Chapter of Gorgonzola Marines are actually amazing Bikers, possibly on par with White Scars and Ravenwing Bikers.

 

So I suppose the question is: does a Chapter need to have specific, unique, bespoke rules for its given speciality (eg, White Scars and Bikers) to be good, or is a detachment that focuses on that speciality (eg, a Biker detachment) enough; and if not, why not?

[WrathOfTheLion]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I've got some bad news for you:  IF - I said IF - Bolter Drill, Shock Assault etc are gone, melee marines are going to be in trouble.  Remember when 8th Landed and they took away all the +1A universal rules?  Two melee weapons (including pistols), charged, etc?  Shock Assault was basically to replace the Charge bonus.  One thing that happens time and time again when GW rolls out the paradigm shift editions is that they don't dive below the surface level changes.  That's why Assault Marines were in the doghouse so long.  They have a tendency to balance melee as if its as easy to melee someone every turn as it is to shoot them - even as they make it almost impossible to Deepstrike, transport etc into melee. 

Shock assault will be gone because they just cooked the +1 attack back into the datasheet/profile, then deleted the ability. I.e., instead of 2 attacks base with shock assault, they just give you 3 attacks base.

 

They already did this for most other marine factions across 9E (Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Grey Knights, etc.).

 

It's a trivially easy rule to delete from the book for that reason.

Edited April 18, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Bouargh]

3 hours ago, Kallas said:

So I suppose the question is: does a Chapter need to have specific, unique, bespoke rules for its given speciality (eg, White Scars and Bikers) to be good, or is a detachment that focuses on that speciality (eg, a Biker detachment) enough; and if not, why not?

 

I see where you are heading so I will take the risk to propose a kind of answer.

Tell me if I read your mind properly.

 

I presume the answer will be dual: yes & no. All together.

 

No, what will matter is the rule set from each detachment sheet. Eventually some Detahcment rules will be introduced to tease a link with "historic chapter" (say for example "this Detachment is a tactic widely described in the Codex Astartes but it is really only used by Yellow marines in their beloved Siege actions where they excel").

 

But we will have codices with Detachments designed to specificaly represent fighting archetypes of PosterBoyz chapters too.

For example I can perfectly see a BA Codex with a Lucifer Strike force Detachment, a Descent of Angels Detachment, a Flesh Tearer Detachment plus a couple of Detachment previously published in the Vanilla SM codex... Will they get rules to represent the nature of the BA? Maybe, unless these rules are best represented as the access granted to some units with the BA keyword. 

 

In the end it will be the same as it is now: play the rule, use the colour you want. Call it successor chapter. 

 

 

[Karhedron]

My feeling is that any Chapter should be able to field an army of bikers representing their 8th companies. If they do so, I feel they should get whatever detachment bonus such an "Outrider" detachment brings to represent their specialisation.

 

No if you are playing Ravenwing, you get some custom units to take in such a detachment which might especially benefit from the detachment bonus. Presumably these will be in place of the Oath of Moment associated with the Gladius Strike Force.

 

Now the big question is whether Chapters get any bonuses just for being a particular chapter. Right now is seems like Combat Doctrines are still going to exist in 10th in some faction. Maybe this will be the default Marine faction bonus and other Chapters such as Dark Angels will replace Combat Doctrines with Grim Resolve (since stacking will apparently be replaced by substitution).

 

Now whether Grim Resolve works better with Outrider or Gladius remains to be seen. Right now we just do not have enough information to tell if Ravenwing will be able to field a "better" bike army than other Chapters, beyond just having access to more specialised units.

[Kallas]

2 hours ago, Bouargh said:

Tell me if I read your mind properly.

Pretty much 

 

But yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.

 

2 hours ago, Bouargh said:

But we will have codices with Detachments designed to specificaly represent fighting archetypes of PosterBoyz chapters too.

For example I can perfectly see a BA Codex with a Lucifer Strike force Detachment, a Descent of Angels Detachment, a Flesh Tearer Detachment plus a couple of Detachment previously published in the Vanilla SM codex... Will they get rules to represent the nature of the BA? Maybe, unless these rules are best represented as the access granted to some units with the BA keyword. 

I think this is probably the key part for the Codexes. Even assuming all of the Marine Chapters get rolled into the main 'Dex, they could easily have a couple of Detachments each to represent their common methods of waging war (eg, a Crusader Detachment that limits Psykers and offers oaths: it's not expressly limited to Black Templars, but it would clearly be a way for Templars to play their classic style).

 

Units will also be a way to bring in flavour, though I understand why people might not want, say, Sanguinary Guard to have Red Thirst-style rules and not their other Marines - it'll be seen as stripping out the flavour. But as long as Sanguinary Guard are still Chapter locked to Blood Angels in some way, like say Grey Hunters to Space Wolves, then a lot of the flavour is retained while the army building restrictions are less restricted to allow people to more readily pick and choose the way they want to play (ie, you can bring your Ultramarines Company that has focused heavily on melee combat using the Jump Pack Melee Detachment).

  

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Now the big question is whether Chapters get any bonuses just for being a particular chapter. Right now is seems like Combat Doctrines are still going to exist in 10th in some faction. Maybe this will be the default Marine faction bonus and other Chapters such as Dark Angels will replace Combat Doctrines with Grim Resolve (since stacking will apparently be replaced by substitution).

Yeah, this is the big question. Personally (and I'm sure some will be very unhappy with it) I don't think the Chapters need to have a bespoke set of rules for running Blood Angels or Ultramarines. Keeping their units is the most important thing for me (ie, Sanguinary Guard are locked to Blood Angels, so couldn't be mixed with, say, Ravenwing Black Knights easily).

Edited April 18, 2023 by Kallas
Third quote

[Bouargh]

25 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Personally (and I'm sure some will be very unhappy with it) I don't think the Chapters need to have a bespoke set of rules for running Blood Angels or Ultramarines. Keeping their units is the most important thing for me (ie, Sanguinary Guard are locked to Blood Angels, so couldn't be mixed with, say, Ravenwing Black Knights easily).

 

I will not be happy with it, but I suppose this the the way we are heading to, at least partially.

 

Indeed, looking for example at the Librarian datasheet from today´s WarComm teaser, looks like the psy powers are going to disappear - So no more specific deck per chapter/army, but instead a characterweapon feature on the unit datasheet. If the sistem is managed that way for psy powers, the logic would be it is done in the same vein for each and every aspect, as a standardized design philosophy. So rules will go on unit datasheet in most cases.

 

In most cases (and this is the reason why I put "partially") earler,  because I am not fully convinced that Faction´s "oath of the Moment" will be kept for BA,SW, DA... In fact I expect these chapters will be their own faction and units shared with the SM faction will be reprinted as independant datasheet with faction marked instead BA, SW, DA... This is the only way I see to grant access to the genuine units of these armies eliminating the risk to leav opend the door allowing fielding  Wulfen + Deathshroud in the same army for example...

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Bouargh said:

In most cases (and this is the reason why I put "partially") earler,  because I am not fully convinced that Faction´s "oath of the Moment" will be kept for BA,SW, DA... In fact I expect these chapters will be their own faction and units shared with the SM faction will be reprinted as independant datasheet with faction marked instead BA, SW, DA... This is the only way I see to grant access to the genuine units of these armies eliminating the risk to leav opend the door allowing fielding  Wulfen + Deathshroud in the same army for example...

Separating out the bespoke Chapters (BA, DA, SW, and BT) would definitely let them kit them out more appropriately. Still leaves room for the other 5 Big Chapters to grumble about their own uniqueness, but it would allow them to keep things like Wulfen + Deathshroud separate, as you said.

 

Maybe they will go for the Supplement system again, even though it's still more books (counter to what they said they are aiming for). Or maybe they'll do a full Codex, with full reprints of every datasheet that a Chapter can use!