Old Marines are not more Gothic or Grim-Dark than Primaris.

[Orange Knight]

After experiencing some casual, biased censorship on the forum (and no, I'm not upset), I decided to make this topic in good humour and high spirit.

 

I keep coming across a recurring statement that Primaris are somehow less "40k" than the classic Marines, but I find this to be false.

 

Phobos are indeed Tacti-cool, but they are more comparable to Scouts. The standard Intercessor is perfectly comparable to a Tactical or Assault Marine, and the Primaris veteran units that have been released thus far are just as ornate and "gothic" as any veteran of the older range, if not more so.

 

Here is a fun meme to round this out:

 

 

 

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

Incoming "cherry picked" image of:

 

Gothic dark

 

And clean lines respectively:

 

I've been posting these two images for years in response to the "not gothic enough" argument. or "grimdark vs noble bright", "soulfull vs soulless" or whatever form it takes this time. 

[Jolemai]

Perhaps you both can explain why the forum needs yet another Primaris vs Firstborn discussion?

[Orange Knight]

9 minutes ago, Jolemai said:

Perhaps you both can explain why the forum needs yet another Primaris vs Firstborn discussion?

 

Honestly, it's not needed. But this topic is really not meant to upset or offend - this is just to have fun.

We are actually in high spirits as we learn more about 10th edition, for me it's the first time in almost 3 years that I have been excited when discussing 40k.

 

My thoughts on the Firstborn vs Primaris debate is that it has gone on too long, and perhaps we are all guilty of being entrenched in our views. We need to be able poke fun and laugh at ourselves from time to time.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

I decided to make this topic in good humour and high spirit.

Sure you did.

 

Edit:

To add. You specifically are calling them Old Marines, with the clear intention to demean Firstborn (which is something you've complained about as the Firstborn appelation offends you), and this is clearly a bugbear you have about the mod action in the 10th Ed topic.

 

I don't disagree with the thread's statement in general, but honestly, I'm tired. Bring it up with the mods and let us just focus on the 10th Ed stuff without dredging up more crap.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Kallas
Added stuff

[Blindhamster]

Whilst I 100% agree the mods handled the N&R thread badly, I don’t think this thread serves any useful or helpful purpose. 

[Orange Knight]

31 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Whilst I 100% agree the mods handled the N&R thread badly, I don’t think this thread serves any useful or helpful purpose. 

 

For me, this topic is to address that in a friendly and light hearted way.

I certainly don't think anything warrants any official or serious private discussion on the issue.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Alright Orange Knight…

 

Lets hear (read) you defend Suppressors then, come on with it =p

[Sword Brother Adelard]

2 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

Alright Orange Knight…

 

Lets hear (read) you defend Suppressors then, come on with it =p

 

Erm, the helmets were ok...?

[conscriptboris]

Some people take more nostalgia in the older models. Its generational and always will be. The eventual 'Primaris' replacement will go through the same ponderance in years to come. I dont think either are more grimdark, but nostalgia will make people claim firstborn are.

 

My only annoyance around primaris is the lore (really 10k year plan never mentioned...) and the fact my 20years of firstborn armys were being made irrelevant.

 

However I am still rolling my 2nd Edition Deathwing army (and often being destroyed) which also seem to be viable in 10th!

 

Boris

[Lemondish]

5 hours ago, Jolemai said:

Perhaps you both can explain why the forum needs yet another Primaris vs Firstborn discussion?

Folks are driven mad by the drip feed of 10th edition news that they would prefer instead to binge a familiar tale to pass the time.

 

There's always some good fun to be had in these threads, though, as long as the heat in the room stays tepid. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Lemondish

[nusphigor]

There is one thing that primaris don't have (and firstborn do) and it's variety in kits, specifically in armour marks. You could say you're able to mix tacticus, gravis and phobos but they don't look good (except for reiver helmets) when mixing the kits.
Also you could always argue that you can use older marks parts in primaris, but that would be using firstborn kits on primaris so it isn't a point in favour for the primaris but a point for the firstborn.
That can be used for the age old argument of firstborn can be more grim dark than primaris, just because the versatility and huge interchagable parts of the different kits.

But still, its a bothersome arguement and, in the end, it leads to nowhere.

A better argument would be how do i use primaris in my army? because it's been 2 editions and i don have a grot-loving clue...

Edited April 21, 2023 by Brother Tyler
Profanity removed

[spessmarine]

3 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

Alright Orange Knight…

 

Lets hear (read) you defend Suppressors then, come on with it =p

They were named well, seems like everyone Suppressed them from memory.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

10 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

They were named well, seems like everyone Suppressed them from memory.

I actually like what they could have been. Very cool weapons, but why does a long range suppression unit need jump packs? Let’s not forget about the awkward posing.. I’d hate to see what the recoil does while they are in the air, lol.

 

Maybe the idea is that their purpose being suppression they need to relocate quickly before their position is identified and they themselves can be suppressed? 
 

we can always count on GW to drop the ball :sigh:

[Kallas]

4 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

why does a long range suppression unit need jump packs?

That's the worst part: they don't have Jump Packs, they have Grav Chutes and apparently are the only ones who do big bounding leaps with them. You'd think that'd be pretty common practice on Reivers, Tempestus Scions, etc, but apparently not.

 

5 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I actually like what they could have been.

I've got 9, converted up to have actual Jump Packs (not Grav Chutes) and hovering above the ground only a little bit (paper clip pins in the feet, instead of the flying rods) and they look way better. Hopefully in 10th they'll have viable rules instead of being godawful at everything, then they'll probably be the first Primaris unit I field in a good long while.

[Bryan Blaire]

1 hour ago, nusphigor said:

firstborn can be more grim dark than primaris, just because the versatility and huge interchagable parts of the different kits.

But still, it’s a bothersome arguement and, in the end, it leads to nowhere.

It’s not only bothersome, but it’s not even an argument.  Versatility and interchangeable parts have absolutely zero impact on a kit being grimdark.  Most of the kits themselves aren’t grimdark at all, and certainly not in the super-edge-highlighted method that ‘Eavy Metal paints units.

 

To counter this, the Primaris Captain with the entombed-bones-of-a-brother shield is quite grimdark (even if I think the model’s attire itself is stupid), and is not topped by the great majority of GW classic Marines kits.

[Doctor Perils]

4 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

Alright Orange Knight…

 

Lets hear (read) you defend Suppressors then, come on with it =p

Very well, i will: I find them cool - a massive autocannon on a mobile platform, a practical enough concept, and the design work, while not outstanding like it has been on much of the rest of the Primaris Range, is still pretty decent.

And the concept of an unknown death from afar, that can get you even in an armoured bunker or vehicle, is plenty gothic - certainly moreso than knights in shining armour coming for you swinging their chainsaws.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

That's the worst part: they don't have Jump Packs, they have Grav Chutes and apparently are the only ones who do big bounding leaps with them. You'd think that'd be pretty common practice on Reivers, Tempestus Scions, etc, but apparently not.

 

They have Jump Packs, they're just not on their backs. They're on their boots. Every Suppressor datasheet since they've been released has carried the JUMP PACK keyword and every codex reference to them has made it clear they have grav-chutes AND Jump Packs.

[Arikel]

2 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

  Versatility and interchangeable parts have absolutely zero impact on a kit being grimdark.  Most of the kits themselves aren’t grimdark at all, and certainly not in the super-edge-highlighted method that ‘Eavy Metal paints units.

 

Eh but what it does do is offer you the ability to grimdark any particular kit as much as you like, even if the starting kit is very plain. I hate to do the back in my day thing because it means I am older than I wish to be, but it is true. The basic multipart marine kits were interchangeable with all the multipart specialty kits, so I would pick up almost any new kit that came out.  This means I have various sm veteran bits,  BA Death Company bits, Space Wolf grey hunter bits, Black templar and Dark Angel upgrade kits, Grey knight kit bits and Chaos Marine bits up in my bits box, all compatible with the basic tactical, assault and devastator squad bits to make whatever I want or need, and they can be as grimdark gothic,  shiny bright heroes, or simple and plain as I want them to be.

 

The beauty about the old firstborn kits didn't necessarily lay in the posing freedom you had, as that was pretty basic. It was that you could literally take almost any plastic kit that featured a dude in power armor and it would fit with any other dude in power armor kit you had. You never had to buy a character unless you wanted to, because you could literally build any character required (even unique ones) using spare bits from the right kits. I still have the bits set available to make the Vulcan dude from the salamanders, using a spear from GK, cloak from captain, and so on.

 

Primaris look great, have much better posing in general, and I would say aren't any less grim dark in general terms, but I find the new kits are much less easy to bash together for someone who only has limited time and skills to get things done. They are very much build according to instructions, and are not easily compatible with other kits.  Along with the current no options but what comes in the box on the data sheets for weapons and equipment, this makes them not only less easy to work with, but not really much point to purchase kits specifically to bash them together, as the loadouts are so fixed and the difficulty is on another level from what it used to be.

 

 

TLDR: Tactical kit itself was plain, but you could make it whatever you wanted with the right bits. Primaris can look cool, but just like their loadouts they got no flex.

 

[Bryan Blaire]

17 minutes ago, Arikel said:

 

Eh but what it does do is offer you the ability to grimdark any particular kit as much as you like, even if the starting kit is very plain. I hate to do the back in my day thing because it means I am older than I wish to be, but it is true. The basic multipart marine kits were interchangeable with all the multipart specialty kits, so I would pick up almost any new kit that came out.  This means I have various sm veteran bits,  BA Death Company bits, Space Wolf grey hunter bits, Black templar and Dark Angel upgrade kits, Grey knight kit bits and Chaos Marine bits up in my bits box, all compatible with the basic tactical, assault and devastator squad bits to make whatever I want or need, and they can be as grimdark gothic,  shiny bright heroes, or simple and plain as I want them to be.

 

The beauty about the old firstborn kits didn't necessarily lay in the posing freedom you had, as that was pretty basic. It was that you could literally take almost any plastic kit that featured a dude in power armor and it would fit with any other dude in power armor kit you had. You never had to buy a character unless you wanted to, because you could literally build any character required (even unique ones) using spare bits from the right kits. I still have the bits set available to make the Vulcan dude from the salamanders, using a spear from GK, cloak from captain, and so on.

 

Primaris look great, have much better posing in general, and I would say aren't any less grim dark in general terms, but I find the new kits are much less easy to bash together for someone who only has limited time and skills to get things done. They are very much build according to instructions, and are not easily compatible with other kits.  Along with the current no options but what comes in the box on the data sheets for weapons and equipment, this makes them not only less easy to work with, but not really much point to purchase kits specifically to bash them together, as the loadouts are so fixed and the difficulty is on another level from what it used to be.

 

 

TLDR: Tactical kit itself was plain, but you could make it whatever you wanted with the right bits. Primaris can look cool, but just like their loadouts they got no flex.

 

And again, nothing of what you said means that any of the classic Astartes kits are any more or less grimdark than the Primaris kits.  You can literally build any character you want to with Primaris as well, they will just have the basic Marine torso and legs unless you put a bit of converting work into it.

 

That has nothing to do with being “grimdark”.  You can “grimdark” any kit as much as you like - the ease of it may be lower with the newer models, but that is also true of the Space Marine Heroes - those being classic Astartes made them no more or less grimdark, and they were not easily kit-bashable either, just like Primaris.  Here’s how you know if the kit was grimdark - did you have to do anything at all to the kit to make it grimdark?  If the answer to that question is yes, then the kit wasn’t grimdark.  It doesn’t matter whether it was classic Astartes, Primaris Astartes, or My Little Pony - if you had to do something to make the kit grimdark, then the kit was not initially grimdark.

 

So we are back to exactly what I said:  

“It’s not only bothersome, but it’s not even an argument.  Versatility and interchangeable parts have absolutely zero impact on a kit being grimdark.  Most of the kits themselves aren’t grimdark at all, and certainly not in the super-edge-highlighted method that ‘Eavy Metal paints units.”  I’ve been converting and/or kit-bashing since 2nd Edition, versatility has absolutely no impact on whether models are “more grimdark” - the work you are putting into them does that.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Arikel]

7 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

  I’ve been converting and/or kit-bashing since 2nd Edition, versatility has absolutely no impact on whether models are “more grimdark” - the work you are putting into them does that.

That’s the entire point though. It used to take far less work and skill to be able to kitbash. Ergo you would be much more likely to see it, in general, with firstborn. Not as many folk are going to risk  having to actually cut up primaris models, nor have the time and skills to do it, so you will see less variation, again in general, over the basic kits with Primaris armies. 
 

I think this is what people mean when they say souless. Because it’s less common to see kitbashing now, armies appear more “samey” than they used to.

[Bryan Blaire]

37 minutes ago, Arikel said:

That’s the entire point though. It used to take far less work and skill to be able to kitbash. Ergo you would be much more likely to see it, in general, with firstborn. Not as many folk are going to risk  having to actually cut up primaris models, nor have the time and skills to do it, so you will see less variation, again in general, over the basic kits with Primaris armies. 
 

I think this is what people mean when they say souless. Because it’s less common to see kitbashing now, armies appear more “samey” than they used to.

It’s not the entire point, nor can you or anyone else make it the point (as that would be shifting the argument to something that they argument is not) - the entire point is whether the classic Astartes are more grimdark than the Primaris Marines, per the argument put forward in the original post.  The kits - not kitbashes or conversions done by end-users, just the kits - are not.

 

I’m not arguing “soul” or “ease of conversion” or anything else - I am purely arguing that the kits, as produced by GW, are not any more grimdark in their classic Astartes versions.

 

Anything “we” as an end-user/consumer do to a kit doesn’t apply to this argument, because it’s not the kit that any of us buy off the shelf.  I am arguing, per the discussion in the original post in this thread, that the kits, as produced by GW, with nothing additional done to them, are in their raw form no more or less grimdark in either the classic Astartes or the Primaris Astartes incarnations.  Arguing a different point means nothing to what I’m arguing.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Arikel]

Apologies for sidetracking in that case. If the argument is not why do people feel that firstborn are grimdarkier than primaris, it is not especially relevant.

 

Part to part, you are not going to find much difference in grimdarknosity levels between a standard tactical kit and a standard intercessor kit. A little more variety on one side, a little better looking, bigger and more dynamically posed on the other, but both are pretty clean kits.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Invictors exist. That's a pretty hefty point against Grimdark, and is by far my least favorite release Primaris have ever had. 

 

"But Wait!" I hear you cry, "What about the baby carrier? Grey Knights have been doing this for years!"

 

And to that I say, we make fun of it for a reason. If it isn't a Tau or AM, it shouldn't be running around in an exo suit with all its limbs still attached. And I'm being generous with the term Limbs in AM's case.

[spessmarine]

8 hours ago, Kallas said:

That's the worst part: they don't have Jump Packs, they have Grav Chutes and apparently are the only ones who do big bounding leaps with them. You'd think that'd be pretty common practice on Reivers, Tempestus Scions, etc, but apparently not.

 

I've got 9, converted up to have actual Jump Packs (not Grav Chutes) and hovering above the ground only a little bit (paper clip pins in the feet, instead of the flying rods) and they look way better. Hopefully in 10th they'll have viable rules instead of being godawful at everything, then they'll probably be the first Primaris unit I field in a good long while.

 

Yes, I quite liked the converted examples like this one below.

The classic and simpler jumppack and no awkward floating like they are being held up by their underwear really improves them.