Old Marines are not more Gothic or Grim-Dark than Primaris.

[Marshal Mittens]

On 4/18/2023 at 2:01 PM, Bloody Legionnaire said:

Alright Orange Knight…

 

Lets hear (read) you defend Suppressors then, come on with it =p

I like supressors! I did the mod the cut the barrel down, and mount them on the ground because I hate flight stands, but I like supresors! My Celestial Lions have 2x3 and I plan to have at least 3x3 in my Dark Angels 10th Chapter (Because they go with phobos armor people for some reason?)

 

What's so bad about supressors?

 

Hot take: I don't care for the brutalias Dread. I like the redemptor, I like the new las/missile one from the trailer, but the brutalias, and those silly missile troops it released with, they do not spark joy. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The design studio rolling back distinctions between Primaris and Firstborn tacitly acknowledges they missed the mark with what people actually like about space marines. The HH team is currently making the same mistakes with Mark 6. Black Templars came out 4 years after the initial release and actually looked like Black Templars. Dark Angels and Blood Angels are finally about to look like Dark Angels and Blood Angels. Even the super generic Ultramarines have an extremely strong and distinct aesthetic that permeates all of their artwork but isnt possible on the new models. People like making space marines with tabards, and special shoulders, and distinct helmets or chest pieces. They don't just like space marines, they like the space marines that look like the 4th Edition Karl Kopinski style art. 

[bigtrouble]

I would like to say that the Primaris named characters show that GW is not at all abandoning grim-dark. Though the regular units are more vidja-game-y, and lack a little charm or individuality, models like Mephiston, Hellbrecht, the new Dante, Shrike, Marneus and the honor guard - these are all excellent attempts at creating a more comic-book grim-dark style. I think they have been largely successful in advancing modeling technology and keeping some unique appeal.

[Gamiel]

17 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

It’s debatable that he is primaris,

Why? First born don't come in primaris size, unlike that Castellan 

 

17 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

but there’s not a shred of mkx about the armour

But by that logic should it be debatable if figures like Grimaldus or Mephiston are primaris. 

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The design studio rolling back distinctions between Primaris and Firstborn tacitly acknowledges they missed the mark with what people actually like about space marines. The HH team is currently making the same mistakes with Mark 6. Black Templars came out 4 years after the initial release and actually looked like Black Templars. Dark Angels and Blood Angels are finally about to look like Dark Angels and Blood Angels. Even the super generic Ultramarines have an extremely strong and distinct aesthetic that permeates all of their artwork but isnt possible on the new models. People like making space marines with tabards, and special shoulders, and distinct helmets or chest pieces. They don't just like space marines, they like the space marines that look like the 4th Edition Karl Kopinski style art. 

 

Personally, I prefer the cleaner look. I dislike the way Sternguard and Deathwing Knights look. I think the earlier posts by  @Marshal Reinhard, @Bryan Blaire, and @Brother Tyler show that there was very little inherent in the core Space Marine range which actually made those kits match the Grimdark Aesthetic.  I got into Space Marines in part because of the art for Storm of Vengeance and those kits where just what I needed to try to replicate that look.

 

The Mk4 and Mk6 kits are uniform in appearance because they represent an industrial capacity which no longer exists, hence the devolution into the mixed armor Mk5. The Imperium gets its act together to start mass producing Mk7, but then technopaganism kicks in, "older is better" plus martial-animism leads back to mixed armor marks as newly initiated Brother So-and-so gets dead Brother Hero's 3,000 year old lucky elbow flange installed on the otherwise fresh Mk7 armor newly acquired from a pacted Forge World.  @Arikel made some excellent points about how one could (relatively) simply replicate this sense of more Historical Weight by mixing armor marks. The 2014 Tactical Squad was great for that, but even it wasn't dripping in Blanchitsu or Kopinski-levels of gilding. Heck, Kopinski's illustrations tend to fall into two categories. I posted this earlier:

 

 

Those models existed as Honor Guard, not line troopers. Even then, the more elaborate, Gothic details are too small to be represented at 28 mm. They're also a lot less cluttered than the miniatures, because Kopinski drew art-scale. There's a level of over-exaggeration that occurs when it's smooshed down to fit the miniatures (that I personally don't like, hence my opinion on Sternguard).

 

 

And that then we've art like this, where the Raven Guard are indistinguishable from the Black Templars:

 

 

1 hour ago, bigtrouble said:

I would like to say that the Primaris named characters show that GW is not at all abandoning grim-dark. Though the regular units are more vidja-game-y, and lack a little charm or individuality, models like Mephiston, Hellbrecht, the new Dante, Shrike, Marneus and the honor guard - these are all excellent attempts at creating a more comic-book grim-dark style. I think they have been largely successful in advancing modeling technology and keeping some unique appeal.

I'm just going to quote Brother Tyler, because he gave us an excellent description of how this is the way. I bolded the more relevant portion, but the lead up is good too.

  

On 4/21/2023 at 6:19 PM, Brother Tyler said:

And before I go further, I want to reiterate something that another member already said. I forget who said it, and I'm too deep into composing this to go look, but someone else correctly pointed out that some element of the relative level of gothic or grimdark nature of the setting is lore-based and not necessarily visibly embodied on the models. The basic horrors of the setting and the varying-but-always-horrific process to become a Space Marine automatically score some grimdark points (compared to, say, Johny Rico joining the Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers). And then you can look at the specifics of each Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes for varying starting levels of grimdarkness. For example, we can't tell by looking at them, but all Iron Hands battle-brothers have an augmetic left hand because their natural left hand is removed as part of their indoctrination process.  Knowing that, you can understand that the Iron Hands automatically score some grimdark points even though they might not have other overt grimdark elements (however you define them). Similarly, other Chapters have their own horrific methods (e.g., the Blood Angels change mutants into Blood Angels after entombing them in caskets for a year, among other things). Even when Adeptus Astartes models aren't overtly "grimdark," the very concept of the transhuman Adeptus Astartes in the Warhammer 40,000 setting is "grimdark" (more so than the original concept of former criminals, which was still pretty grimdark).

 

Interestingly enough, the relative level of "gothic" in the Adeptus Astartes models from the 8th edition on has followed the pattern of the previous range refresh that began in 3rd edition. Focusing solely on the Chapter-agnostic Primaris squad kits, those, like the Firstborn of the 3rd edition squads (not characters), were more sleek and hard sci-fi with fewer "gothic" elements. They retain the inherent "grimdarkness" of being Adeptus Astartes, but have far fewer overt external gothic elements than some kits that came later and the characters.

 

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Gamiel said:

Why? First born don't come in primaris size, unlike that Castellan 

 

But by that logic should it be debatable if figures like Grimaldus or Mephiston are primaris. 

Because the Castellan is a FB marine sculpt… It’s based on the classic 3rd edition Black Templars cover art and has zero MKX elements on the model something that can’t be said for your examples of either Grimaldus or Mephiston which are both wearing MKX 

 

Size also isn’t any real metric of FB or Primaris as now all Indomitus Terminators [any Terminators for that matter] can be classed as having Primaris marines inside the armour and most of those Sculpts are way to small to accommodate the current Primaris range 

 

The only part of the Castellan thats Primaris is the optional Keyword GW tacked to aid sales 

Edited April 23, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Gamiel]

19 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Because the Castellan is a FB marine sculpt… It’s based on the classic 3rd edition Black Templars cover art 

The same can be said for the new Mephiston sculpt, exept it's not based on a cover:

 

and he is a primaris. 

 

19 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

zero MKX elements on the model

Take it you have not seen his backpack. Or the length of his arms and legs.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Gamiel

[WARMASTER_]

55 minutes ago, Gamiel said:

The same can be said for the new Mephiston sculpt, exept it's not based on a cover:

 

and he is a primaris. 

 

Take it you have not seen his backpack. Or the length of his arms and legs.

Mephiston is also wearing MKX armour! 

 

Do you mean this clearly MKVII backpack sorry? Again size isn’t a metric… The Chaos Havocs for example are FB and are way bigger than Primaris, vice versa the DW knights are smaller but can have Primaris in the armour now too 

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Because the Castellan is a FB marine sculpt… It’s based on the classic 3rd edition Black Templars cover art and has zero MKX elements on the model something that can’t be said for your examples of either Grimaldus or Mephiston which are both wearing MKX 

Hear me out:

 

He is neither first born nor Primaris, he is pure zeal made manifest, and therefore can be either.

 

On a serious note, I don’t think armor or height are good metrics for Primaris vs FB. Nothing Lore Wise says they can’t wear other armor.

[Evil Eye]

Speaking honestly,  and talking solely on model design grounds and ignoring the terrible fluff and the annoying "great replacement" of Firstborn which GW denies is happening, I think the issue with a lot of Primaris designs isn't that they're not "gothic" so much as they just look a bit too "toyetic". There are good Primaris designs; most of the Indomitus sculpts such as the heroes (the executioner whose name escapes me being a favourite of mine) and the Bladeguard are pretty fantastic, and the basic Mk. X armour is a perfectly serviceable Marine design. Unfortunately there's also a lot of really terrible designs that look awful at the base level; Desolators with their ridiculous nerf guns, Inceptors with their silly helmets, Suppressors with their literally everything and most of the vehicle fleet. I think the fact that most of the actually good Primaris designs tend to be more gothic/baroque is what might be causing a lot of the "Primaris aren't gothic enough" sentiment; when you think of the distinctly Primaris Marine designs, the mind is drawn to some of the dumber ones whilst the actually good sculpts tend to get memory-holed into the rest of the Marine range; either because of the more classically 40K designs or because they could easily be mixed up with existing Marine archetypes. Even the Bladeguard could easily be Breachers or Honour Guard/Veterans. In fact I'm pretty sure in the 4E Codex you could give Veterans or a Command Squad a loadout similar to a Bladeguard if you took Terminator Honours on them all!

 

It's also worth noting that whilst there are some diabolically bad Firstborn sculpts, they're not defended either. The Centurions and Stormtalon have been mocked since their release (and for good reason!) for similar reasons to the shonkier Primaris models; overly toyetic designs that don't fit in any era of 40K design language.

[OttoVonAwesome]

There's a brutal simplicity that was lost with the Mark X design compared to the earlier marks. Primaris look cutting edge and older power armour looked sturdy and simple or in the case of Mark II and III straight up brutal. They look very similar but are also very different I miss the vader masks most of all they are super intimidating and Mark X just arent. 

 

The mixing of armour parts on 40k marines from mark 2 through 8 was also just undeniably rad for customizing each marine and for the lore aspect of handing down gear through millenia gave each mark 2 helmet and Mark 4 torso ect a wieght to it that Primaris can never have. They can wear the same honours but they'll never be as honoured as firstborn. They'll never compare to the nostalgia of those Badab war days when it became possible to easily fully customize every aspect of your army despite having generally better sculpts and sense of movement and I think that's really the main problem people have when it comes down to it. They are simplified and uniform in purpose and appearance despite the many variants the different units wear. A firstborns armour told a story in itself.

 

Anyway that's my two cents. It's not that Primaris aren't cool it's that they can never replace the originals and never should like they are now wich is fairly obvious since Dante crossed the Rubicon and rumours are pointing towards landspeeders and castraferrum dreads going legends and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other older kits went that way as well at the same time (Bikers and attack bikes). 

 

Fun fact though the much hated Centurions actually look super cool if you strip the shoulder pads and thigh guards (keep the leg armour). Very much look like a Marine in an awesome heavy exo skeleton and not a flat wall of bulky crap. The squats took that route and it's one of thier coolest models.

 

Well we can all hold onto hope that Age of Darkness Badab War becomes a thing down the road.

[BitsHammer]

14 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The design studio rolling back distinctions between Primaris and Firstborn tacitly acknowledges they missed the mark with what people actually like about space marines. 

Feels more like they are recognizing that to simplify the game the keywords needed to be dropped because it added complexity that doesn't improve the game in any way.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

On 4/23/2023 at 4:26 AM, Marshal Mittens said:

I like supressors! I did the mod the cut the barrel down, and mount them on the ground because I hate flight stands, but I like supresors! My Celestial Lions have 2x3 and I plan to have at least 3x3 in my Dark Angels 10th Chapter (Because they go with phobos armor people for some reason?)

 

What's so bad about supressors?

 

Hot take: I don't care for the brutalias Dread. I like the redemptor, I like the new las/missile one from the trailer, but the brutalias, and those silly missile troops it released with, they do not spark joy. 

 

They are an outrageous concept and they are awfully posed... A unit focused on "suppression" doesn't need the mobility of jump infantry. Nor would an infantryman with that kind of weapon be jumping into the air to fire it. 

 

That being said I can't believe you didn't take my post for the jest that it was...  All I've seen Orange Knight do is (with the delivery of an evangelist) apologetically defend primaris marines. Just wanted to poke some fun at the more ridiculous of the primaris units. I don't hate them at all and have a unit from the SM combat patrol I look forward to painting up. Despite how ridiculous they are. 
 

[Marshal Reinhard]

I don't find surpressors that ridicilous? I don't see them firing the guns while in air, rather they're a heavy a heavy fire support unit with a quick relocate option. They could have more visiabile thrustsers on the models though. I might just be misunderstanding them though.

 

Also, that said im not against units being ridicilous either.

[BitsHammer]

24 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I don't find surpressors that ridicilous? I don't see them firing the guns while in air, rather they're a heavy a heavy fire support unit with a quick relocate option. They could have more visiabile thrustsers on the models though. I might just be misunderstanding them though.

 

Also, that said im not against units being ridicilous either.

I feel the same. Bounding into a new firing position and then taking on new targets makes perfect sense.

 

No one complains about Scourges doing that for the Dark Eldar and it's a similar role.

[Bryan Blaire]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I don't find surpressors that ridicilous? I don't see them firing the guns while in air, rather they're a heavy a heavy fire support unit with a quick relocate option. They could have more visiabile thrustsers on the models though. I might just be misunderstanding them though.

 

Also, that said im not against units being ridicilous either.

You are not alone there, in either Suppressors not being that ridiculous, or units being ridiculous - the modifications I still haven’t accomplished include chopping off the moon boots, some additional pack thrusters (likely just replace that completely), and likely shortening the barrels of the autocannons some.

 

On the subject of ridiculous units, this is 40K - it’s practically required.    I’m sure we all love some unit that someone else finds ridiculous.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

2 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I don't find surpressors that ridicilous? I don't see them firing the guns while in air, rather they're a heavy a heavy fire support unit with a quick relocate option. They could have more visiabile thrustsers on the models though. I might just be misunderstanding them though.

 

This is the case - it's the entire point (as spelled out in the Shadowspear mini-codex) for their "shock absorbing servo plates in their armor and boots to brace their belt-fed cannons, reducing the fierce recoil that would otherwise knock him from his feet." Suppressors are one hundred percent meant to be braced on the ground when they fire and only use their grav-chute and jump capability to first get into position and then tactically reposition as necessary before unleashing the next salvo.

 

Unfortunately, someone at GW didn't bother to understand this and so we have this infamous artwork of the Suppressor firing in mid-air:

 

 

(BTW, that muzzle flash is actually not visible on the box cover due to the Warhammer logo covering that section of the artwork).

 

I don't know if we have an art director or a product editor to thank for that (as I doubt the original artist turned the work in that way but was rather requested to add the muzzle flash by a superior who had just enough power to be dangerous). But we're stuck with it even though it clearly contradicts the description of the unit in the actual included material AND would render the model's heavy boots and shock plates pretty much pointless.

 

Yeah, if I thought Suppressors were actually supposed to be firing in mid-air, I'd think the model looked pretty silly too. Fortunately, I know they're not, misguided art decisions aside.

 

But of course, Suppressors NOT firing mid-air then directly limited the pose options since GW is apparently committed to putting any Primaris unit with jump capability on a flight stand (aside from special characters like Shrike who get to stand on a comparatively-sized mound of rubble). Since the modellers actually understand that Suppressors don't fire mid-air, that reduced their potential poses to various stages of "caddying" the autocannon from one spot to another. Hardly the thing that impressive models are made of. On the other hand, if they'd been able to lift their restriction of the flight stands, they could have had them posed standing on the ground with the autocannon raised into firing position. THAT would have made for some impressive models and headed off a lot of the criticism the stand-welded models got.

 

It'll be interesting to see how they approach this unit when they get around to an MPK release. If they're still adamant about putting them on flight stands, I don't think the multipose models will be much better,

[Arkangilos]

The only thing wrong with suppressors are their backpacks. 
 

If they had the bigger jump packs they’d be sick. 

[Sea Creature]

They could be using recoil to escape in a rearward fallback to a prime firing location.

[tychobi]

1 hour ago, Lord Nord said:

 

This is the case - it's the entire point (as spelled out in the Shadowspear mini-codex) for their "shock absorbing servo plates in their armor and boots to brace their belt-fed cannons, reducing the fierce recoil that would otherwise knock him from his feet." Suppressors are one hundred percent meant to be braced on the ground when they fire and only use their grav-chute and jump capability to first get into position and then tactically reposition as necessary before unleashing the next salvo.

 

Unfortunately, someone at GW didn't bother to understand this and so we have this infamous artwork of the Suppressor firing in mid-air:

 

 

(BTW, that muzzle flash is actually not visible on the box cover due to the Warhammer logo covering that section of the artwork).

 

I don't know if we have an art director or a product editor to thank for that (as I doubt the original artist turned the work in that way but was rather requested to add the muzzle flash by a superior who had just enough power to be dangerous). But we're stuck with it even though it clearly contradicts the description of the unit in the actual included material AND would render the model's heavy boots and shock plates pretty much pointless.

 

Yeah, if I thought Suppressors were actually supposed to be firing in mid-air, I'd think the model looked pretty silly too. Fortunately, I know they're not, misguided art decisions aside.

 

But of course, Suppressors NOT firing mid-air then directly limited the pose options since GW is apparently committed to putting any Primaris unit with jump capability on a flight stand (aside from special characters like Shrike who get to stand on a comparatively-sized mound of rubble). Since the modellers actually understand that Suppressors don't fire mid-air, that reduced their potential poses to various stages of "caddying" the autocannon from one spot to another. Hardly the thing that impressive models are made of. On the other hand, if they'd been able to lift their restriction of the flight stands, they could have had them posed standing on the ground with the autocannon raised into firing position. THAT would have made for some impressive models and headed off a lot of the criticism the stand-welded models got.

 

It'll be interesting to see how they approach this unit when they get around to an MPK release. If they're still adamant about putting them on flight stands, I don't think the multipose models will be much better,

GWs process is art first so you may have it backwards. I personally see them firing while flying no issues. Potato potato 

[bigtrouble]

My suppressor headcanon (from a model design standpoint at least) is that the thruster boots are necessary to slow their descent when toting their massive hardware. Rules are wacky, though, to be sure.

[Arkangilos]

6 hours ago, tychobi said:

GWs process is art first so you may have it backwards. I personally see them firing while flying no issues. Potato potato 

I mean I wouldn’t say no issue. If you look at the art he is zooming backwards as he shoots. Hence I totally agree with @Sea Creature

 

He jumps forward, notices he won’t get as good a position, but he’s already committed. Bam! Shoot! Now he’s going backwards!

[Lemondish]

On 4/23/2023 at 8:24 PM, Evil Eye said:

when you think of the distinctly Primaris Marine designs, the mind is drawn to some of the dumber ones

Can't say I have that problem. Nope.

[Blindhamster]

Agreed, when I think primaris, I think of mkX tacticus generally. Or I think of the bikes which I like, or the bladeguard or heavy intercessors. I personally like Phobos too

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

Agreed, when I think primaris, I think of mkX tacticus generally. Or I think of the bikes which I like, or the bladeguard or heavy intercessors. I personally like Phobos too

Tacticus is my go to as well, much like MkVII is often the default people think of for Firstborn.