Old Marines are not more Gothic or Grim-Dark than Primaris.

[Blindhamster]

i like that a lot

 

[Blindhamster]

as far as customising primaris goes. I think the complaints around that are far less valid than they once were.

 

you can mix and match phobos kits pretty easily (so rievers, infiltrators, incursors, eliminators and the strike team stuff) - you can also use mk7 arms on them just fine as they're the same size, as are the backpacks.

 

you can mix and match intercessors, assault intercessors, hellblasters and most character models quite easily (if you have templar models, you can mix in crusader squad models easily too), if you have push fit intercessors or assault intercessors, those mix in just fine too. Oh and plenty of firstborn bits mix into these nicely

 

you can mix aggressors, heavy intercessors and eradicators pretty easily too.

 

It's really just suppressors and inceptors that don't mix well with anything at this point.

 

heads and shoulder pads and bling bits are regularly easy to mix and match across it all too.

 

it's not quite as cross-compatible as firstborn were, you wouldn't mix phobos and tacticus models generally. But it's plenty of options all the same.

[WARMASTER_]

On 4/18/2023 at 4:09 PM, Orange Knight said:

After experiencing some casual, biased censorship on the forum (and no, I'm not upset), I decided to make this topic in good humour and high spirit.

 

I keep coming across a recurring statement that Primaris are somehow less "40k" than the classic Marines, but I find this to be false.

 

Phobos are indeed Tacti-cool, but they are more comparable to Scouts. The standard Intercessor is perfectly comparable to a Tactical or Assault Marine, and the Primaris veteran units that have been released thus far are just as ornate and "gothic" as any veteran of the older range, if not more so.

 

Here is a fun meme to round this out:

 

 

 

 

Just to reply to the OP’s post…
 

While a veteran vs troop choice is an obvious cherry pick from yourself [+I’m sure it wasn’t meant wholly seriously] Id actually mostly agree with your viewpoint that the ranges are becoming more in line with each other in terms of aesthetics with the Primaris range possessing kits easily on the same level of “Grimdark” that the FB range possesses [Mostly from the Indomitus releases with the BG Captain + BG + BG Ancient being standouts IMO]

 

I’d also agree that the Intercessors and MKVII kits respectively are very similar in general terms 

 

That said this debate doesn’t really come from the current era of kits! It’s comes from the for 3+ Years [approx] of the initial Primaris range release when it generally lacked any of the more recently added classic “Grimdark” design elements. If you then add in the “Tacticool” Vanguard range i think it was a completely valid argument for people to say that the Primaris wasn’t as “Grimdark” as the prior range with many elements that never will be [Vanguard] I also believe that was also a conscious choice on GW’s part though 

 

TLDR: Both ranges are now comparable but they weren’t before…

[Blindhamster]

But wasn’t that really just because it lacked veteran primaris originally? As that’s generally where the real baroque stuff that people call grim dark is even for firstborn.

 

the “tacticool” Phobos stuff is no less grim dark than scouts, intact rievers are more grim dark purely on account of their skull helms

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

But wasn’t that really just because it lacked veteran primaris originally? As that’s generally where the real baroque stuff that people call grim dark is even for firstborn.

 

the “tacticool” Phobos stuff is no less grim dark than scouts, intact rievers are more grim dark purely on account of their skull helms

That's certainly was a thing. People would compare the new Dark Imperium intercessors to whatever veteran unit and say "not grim dark!" "not barroque" "Noblebrigh!" and what other nonsense. It's back then that I'd first start posting the comparison of the tactical marine kit and intercessor kit, as that was obviously the direct comparison and the only valid one at the time. We got more varied kits to compare now. 

[Orange Knight]

I think we can all agree that the initial and limited Primaris models were unfairly compared against the 30 years of Firstborn releases, and all the style variations they offered. 

 

It was obvious that the range would take years to complete, and that chapter specific units and veterans would eventually follow.

[b1soul]

One man's grimdark is another man's grimderp

[WARMASTER_]

12 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

But wasn’t that really just because it lacked veteran primaris originally? As that’s generally where the real baroque stuff that people call grim dark is even for firstborn.

 

the “tacticool” Phobos stuff is no less grim dark than scouts, intact rievers are more grim dark purely on account of their skull helms

Yeh… that was the entire point I was making?

 

The Vanguard range as a whole really is… Rievers I agree have got some very classic SM aesthetics but it’s layered on Phobos armour + the rest the Vanguard range is just a bit wonky IMO Suppressors, Invictus and Infiltrators being especially guilty 
 

 

[tychobi]

For me grimdark space marines was a lore thing. Fanatic super soldiers using ancient weapons because they are so scared of the progress that would be their salvation if it's price was not worse than death.  The sad futility and existential threat was grimdark. To change enough to survive meant a slide towards chaos. A fate worse than death.  

 

The casual hop across the Rubicon? Doesn't give me the grim dark feels.  Cool models tho

 

[Blindhamster]

3 hours ago, tychobi said:

For me grimdark space marines was a lore thing. Fanatic super soldiers using ancient weapons because they are so scared of the progress that would be their salvation if it's price was not worse than death.  The sad futility and existential threat was grimdark. To change enough to survive meant a slide towards chaos. A fate worse than death.  

 

The casual hop across the Rubicon? Doesn't give me the grim dark feels.  Cool models tho

 

thats fair, I do think they should have killed some characters to show it was a genuine risk (as a blood angel and lover of Dante, part of me still finds the idea of seeing blood angels with Karlean stepping up as new chapter master interesting, for example)

 

5 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Yeh… that was the entire point I was making?

 

The Vanguard range as a whole really is… Rievers I agree have got some very classic SM aesthetics but it’s layered on Phobos armour + the rest the Vanguard range is just a bit wonky IMO Suppressors, Invictus and Infiltrators being especially guilty 
 

 

Sorry, I missed the point I guess :) I was just kinda saying, the original comparisons of ranges were a waste of time and kinda flawed because clearly the new range was at its beginning.

 

Incursors look a lot like classic scouts in many ways, knives and guns and even the weird visor things started their lives as a scout model thing. I really like infiltrators personally, to me again they don't really seem out of place because they remind me of scouts, but like a marine that has the carapace and doesn't have to give up power armour entirely. Suppressors were a huge miss though, I like the invictus in theory, but its a bit confused as a concept, recon marine in a huge war suit? why? had it been a regular marine and with a more enclosed canopy, perhaps instead concepted as a highly mobile support unit for close combat, it could have been quite interesting IMO. It's a real shame Rievers rules suck, I like the idea behind them a lot.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Not every chapter of space marine want gothicness, barroqueness or grimdark even. Some chapters go far more heavy into tacticool. For those, phobos fits quite well.

[Dracos]

I don’t know about anyone else but those tacticool Eliminators are about the best looking Scout or Sniper in the game let alone the derpy Marine sniper/scouts.

 

 Unit per unit Primaris is stacking up better and better as the line moves on. Kind of like mode line following the narrative as it grows. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Dracos

[Brother Tyler]

First things first, this is exactly how things should have developed when someone brought up a point in another discussion and people wanted to address that point without disrupting that other discussion: start a new topic to discuss a valid (but highly subjective) issue. This isn't censorship, but is disciplining content architecture, as discussed here. The only things that would have made it better would have been (1) if this discussion had been created instead of the nonsense that took place in that other discussion, and (2) a link to this discussion had been posted in that other discussion, heading off members' inclinations to take that other discussion off topic. Better late than never, though. And now, on to the topic at hand...

 

There is some interesting discussion to be had here, but it has been somewhat unfocused (the ease of conversion/interchangeability between kits is irrelevant). The core problem with the discussion, however is: what does it mean to be "gothic" or "grimdark" and how do we measure it? I suspect that many of us have our own definitions of what these terms mean, but I doubt that there is universal agreement. If we're not all referring to the same thing, or if we don't understand where someone is coming from when they provide their input, we'll go nowhere.

 

Speaking for myself, the "gothic" or "grimdark" elements of the setting are embodied in the fantasy elements of the models, especially those that evoke the [historical] Dark Ages. So a Space Marine in plain unadorned (i.e., no skulls, no badges, etc.) power armour, especially Mks VII, VIII, and X, and armed with typical technological weapons like a boltgun wouldn't be very gothic/grimdark. Once you start adding things like purity seals, tabards/robes, skulls, servitude studs, facial tattoos/brands, trophies, reliquaries, brazier backpacks, fantasy weapons like swords/axes, chain weapons, etc., you start to get grimdark. The more of that stuff you have, the more gothic/grimdark the model. A subset/embellishment to this is the addition of religious elements (i.e., diminishing the pure "science" aspect of the setting). And while I've mentioned the [historical] Dark Ages [of Europe] above, it's really any pre-industrial element that I'm talking about. So the Celtic/Norse elements of the Space Wolves, the Greco-Roman elements of the Ultramarines, the Mongolian elements of the White Scars, and the Renaissance elements of the Blood Angels all count for my personal definition of gothic/grimdark. Personally, I prefer "science-fantasy" to either of those terms. The converse to the science-fantasy/gothic/grimdark side of the spectrum is the tacticool/hard science fiction side of the spectrum.

 

And before I go further, I want to reiterate something that another member already said. I forget who said it, and I'm too deep into composing this to go look, but someone else correctly pointed out that some element of the relative level of gothic or grimdark nature of the setting is lore-based and not necessarily visibly embodied on the models. The basic horrors of the setting and the varying-but-always-horrific process to become a Space Marine automatically score some grimdark points (compared to, say, Johny Rico joining the Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers). And then you can look at the specifics of each Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes for varying starting levels of grimdarkness. For example, we can't tell by looking at them, but all Iron Hands battle-brothers have an augmetic left hand because their natural left hand is removed as part of their indoctrination process.  Knowing that, you can understand that the Iron Hands automatically score some grimdark points even though they might not have other overt grimdark elements (however you define them). Similarly, other Chapters have their own horrific methods (e.g., the Blood Angels change mutants into Blood Angels after entombing them in caskets for a year, among other things). Even when Adeptus Astartes models aren't overtly "grimdark," the very concept of the transhuman Adeptus Astartes in the Warhammer 40,000 setting is "grimdark" (more so than the original concept of former criminals, which was still pretty grimdark).

 

Interestingly enough, the relative level of "gothic" in the Adeptus Astartes models from the 8th edition on has followed the pattern of the previous range refresh that began in 3rd edition. Focusing solely on the Chapter-agnostic Primaris squad kits, those, like the Firstborn of the 3rd edition squads (not characters), were more sleek and hard sci-fi with fewer "gothic" elements. They retain the inherent "grimdarkness" of being Adeptus Astartes, but have far fewer overt external gothic elements than some kits that came later and the characters. It's really when we get into the characters and the Chapter-specific kits that we start to see the gothic nature of the faction demonstrated. There are some clear exceptions, of course, such as the Bladeguard. Even some of the character types, such as Captains and Lieutenants, are less gothic than the more fantastical types such as the Librarians and Chaplains (and their kid brothers, the Judiciars). Even then, things like iron halos, capes, swords, laurels, fetishes, servitude studs, and other signature elements of the Adeptus Astartes give those Captains and Lieutenants a clear gothic edge. Heck, even the minor characters in the other "priestly orders" (in my mind, each Chapter has four priestly orders), the Apothecaries and Techmarines, have certain "gothic" elements (a bionic skull face is metal ). It's really when you get to the Chapter-specific models, however, that you start to see the "gothicness" extended on a squad level. This can be exemplified in one of poster-Chapters of the grimdark Adeptus Astartes, the Black Templars, who, coincidentally, also led the charge for increased gothic representation in the 3rd edition range refresh.

 

Ultimately, a proper perspective on the relative level of gothic/grimdark elements in the Adeptus Astartes model line requires that we understand the wisdom of Obi Wan Kenobi and consider things from different points of view. If you look at the characters and few units that embody special gothic imagery, then you won't see any more/less gothicness in Primaris compared to Firstborn. If you look at the majority of squads and vehicles (not counting the dreadnoughts) and compare them to later versions of Firstborn squads (and not those that were part of the original 3rd edition range refresh), then yes, there is less gothicness. We'll almost certainly see even more overt gothic elements in Primaris kits, especially as we get into Chapter range refreshes and subsequent versions of existing kits (not to mention new units).

 

A more important aspect of the whole issue, however, comes down to whether or not players want the flexibility of less overtly "gothic" kits (which allow them to customize their level and type of gothicness based on their tastes and chosen Chapter) or if they'd prefer to have the "generic" kits with overt "gothic" elements that reduce their conversion flexibility (or require them to do more work to achieve their desired level of gothicness). In this, my personal preference is for cleaner kits that I can customize. This is beneficial because those players that don't want to have a lot of overt gothic stuff don't have to, while those that want to turn their Primaris Space Marines into Space Samurai (or insert your fantasy/historical warrior type here) have a clean slate to do so. This enhances that aspect of the hobby that makes it so appealing to so many - the ability to make the game your own. YMMV.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Brother Tyler
I said "examples" when I meant to say "exceptions" (Oops!)

[bigtrouble]

I mean come on, it's obviously the helmets. Primaris face is just not as cool as the grumpy cat look of that good old MkVII helm.

[Blindhamster]

@Brother Tyler as said by many of us. The mere fact you didn’t remove the offending comments that started it. Is part of why I still believe you made a bad call. Had you removed the initial statement and follow up (both of which refer to the ranges rather than the librarian) people would have been more accepting. 
 

but I already said most of that in message that you didn’t respond to.

on this topics more useful discussion though, you raise some valid points, though I don’t think it’s accurate to say any of the equivalent firstborn units are more gothic when comparing broad equivalent types of units. But it’s totally fair to say the firstborn range is still a lot larger and has more of the chapter specific and veteran type units.

 

8 hours ago, bigtrouble said:

I mean come on, it's obviously the helmets. Primaris face is just not as cool as the grumpy cat look of that good old MkVII helm.

 

haha, yeah that’s a reasonable tbh, primaris are more like mk4 marines in that way and honestly they’re probably the least gothic looking of the pre-primaris marines.

 

 

[BitsHammer]

Swapping helmets goes a long way but I would also argue you can get some mileage out of back banners.

 

Or in the case of Azrael: swapping him over to his original, larger banner.

 

We lost a bit of the Grimdark when we stopped having banners with heraldry strapped to everyone remotely important in the Astartes.

[Dracos]

@Brother Tyler thank you. I have seen it other places but never out so well. The space marine model development from pure pewter to plastic and the hybrid in between was quite a hobbying journey back in the day. I was out of the game as I felt the community had become toxic and pay to win when 5th really got rolling. 
 

it was the clean Primaris Intercessor model that worked my interest to return to 40k. It reminded me of my Marines back when I began the day. I was never one for the baroque dystopian features of the Independent Characters but the Marine infantry model, even as grotesquely disproportioned (especially my beloved Terminators) as they were, were my joy to paint and play. After gone for many years the Primaris Intercessor was a wish come true … even if it took 25 years to come to fruition. 
 

The as much as I was enjoying my new models to paint and play with the squabbling about how Primaris didn’t belong and weren’t “worthy” of being considered “true” Marines was hurtful and came across as gatekeeping. The kind of toxicity that chased me out of the game during 5th. I hope we are finally seeing that time pass or fade. I took a break in 9th because rules bloat due to competitive balancing just became too much. That’s not really a knock on competitive play. I play on tournaments when I’m really enjoying the game … something I hope to possibly do again with a true reboot of the system in 10th

 

Thanks again for the history lesson as not everyone were alive let alone playing back when the line first started evolving … much as it is now. 

[Gederas]

 

2 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

Or in the case of Azrael: swapping him over to his original, larger banner.

I'm still annoyed they made his banner smaller

[Brother Tyler]

 

On a more serious note, the spindly 3rd edition back banners were terrible from a modeling perspective. They were difficult to get straight and they broke off far too easily. Those that came later - the ones where the banner pole and banner were integral to the backback/model - were far better (unless you weren't a fan of back banners). And though the image above is a (poorly rendered) joke, there's some truth to it. There's certainly something proud and ostentatious about back banners, especially those on important character models, but there's also something impractical about them. That impracticality, however, is all part of the charm and "gothicness" of the models, however.

 

In the original lore, back banners were always there, but could be retracted into the backpack. Usually it was just the leaders that would have their back banners displayed, but there was a lore piece describing a battle in which every battle-brother involved triggered whatever switch it was that caused their back banner to telescope out of their backpack and unfurl for the enemy to see. It was portrayed as a dramatic moment, evocative of a group of medieval knights or a gaudily colored Napoleonic army. I'll have to dig around to find that.

 

I found it:

It's not quite as I remembered it or described it above. 

 

I think the back banners are a great example of one of those gothic/grimdark elements. They're impractical, gaudy, and proud - a stark contrast with what might be envisioned in a hard sci-fi setting. Personally, I'm not a fan of them on my models, mostly for reasons of what I imagine as battlefield practicality (which might be a ridiculous consideration in this game setting ). Imagine fighting in the cramped confines of a boarding action or underhive with a back banner. Imagine the effect of the wind upon you (anyone that has carried a flag or guidon can attest to this). Imagine how the banner and banner pole adjust your center of gravity. Imagine how the banner and banner pole might interfere with your body movement, especially in the heat of combat, especially when engaged in a swirling mêlée. Imagine a canny enemy not figuring out that the guys with back banners are leaders and, therefore, high value targets. Yes, back banners are cool and evocative, but they're even less practical than berets. That and my freehand sucks, so my back banners either looked terrible or I had to use stickers (sub-optimal, though a time-honored tradition with miniatures when it comes to flags/banners/shields).

[Blindhamster]

I do miss back banners though, there was something kinda.. charming about them.

i hated the sticker versions back in the day, but I remember being very proud of the freehand one I did for a tycho model long ago.

 

I think you guys are right that the banners are a good example of a more gothic.. or at least knightly thing that modern marines rarely have.

 

incidentally, a lot can come down to pain jobs too thinking about it. One of the coolest things about the space hulk terminators for example was their personal heraldry per marine in both sculpted and eavy metal paint job form.

 

You also made an excellent point Tyler that it’s far easy to “gothic up” a model than it is to go in the reverse. I was always a person that would mix the more “sterile” tactical and other marine kits in with my chapter specific and veteran models to make them less gaudy, I wonder if there is some correlation between people that did similar and those that were more eager for primaris…?

 

I do tend to add some variation, chapter pads, little reliquary type things to my primaris though, so there is probably a middle ground 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Blindhamster

[jaxom]

I feel like this is a worthwhile contribution after reading @Brother Tyler's post. This is all pretty early art and shows that Space Marines have always had a weird dichotomy.

 

From whence it all sprang. There's a distinct 2000AD retrofuturism look for the OG power armor.

 

Second edition had a lot of both. On the outside of the Ultramarine Codex we see art reflecting the actual models.

 

And inside we get more extravagant art.

 

 

Dark Millenium's cover was similar. The ornate Captain, who was reflected in the pewter character models of the time, and the more clean infantry and terminator reflecting the plastic kits.

 

Ditto with this Blood Angel art, though in this case, the character was one of the more simpler pewter sergeants.

 

And more art that also went in the other direction, but note it's primarily the center character who gets the bling

 

Third edition, similar to above. Quintessential Grimdark, right? But take a look at the battle-brothers in the foreground. The armor has clean lines, they're not papered over with purity seals. Meanwhile, the characters have ornate, molded armors with tabards.

 

Then we start getting the updated "art-scale" big bodies and small heads illustrations. Ornate armor, including a pauldron molded like a skull. Purity seals all over the place.

 

Then we have this. It's the sense of Religiosity which (I think) does it here even while the armor is much less ornate than the previous example. Anyone who has seen Pomp and Gravitas in a ceremony immediately gets a sense that this is a Ritual with Weight and History.

 

Very clean armor, no excess decorations. The captain and sergeants have fancier decorations on their cuirasses, but nothing over the top. As per Napoleonic Era in space!, there is a banner bearer.

 

As for Suppressors, well, an image is worth a thousand words.

 

[Gamiel]

There is also this primaris guy:

 

Do we actually have any pre-primaris Space Marine figure that's as Gothic or Grim-Dark as thie Primaris Castellan is?

[Blindhamster]

13 minutes ago, Gamiel said:

There is also this primaris guy:

 

Do we actually have any pre-primaris Space Marine figure that's as Gothic or Grim-Dark as thie Primaris Castellan is?

It’s debatable that he is primaris, officially he can be used as either, the marine inside could have crossed the rubicon but there’s not a shred of mkx about the armour

[jaxom]

One of the interesting things about Mk10 is how it mixes Mk4 and Mk8, the more technologically advanced ones. Yet it almost removes the snarling helm for a more blank, anonymous helm like the MK6

Edited April 22, 2023 by jaxom

[Sea Creature]

To me relics are more inspiring than banners and each one is highly cherished.