Old Marines are not more Gothic or Grim-Dark than Primaris.

[Evil Eye]

On 4/25/2023 at 8:33 PM, BitsHammer said:

No one complains about Scourges doing that for the Dark Eldar and it's a similar role.

That's kinda what I dislike about them honestly; for Dark Eldar it makes sense to have their heavy weapons troops have flight capability because they're all about high speed/mobility at the expense of armour. The Suppressors basically being "Scourges but in power armour" feels like another case of "Primaris have to have every single thing other armies have" and also plays into the VERY annoying "Space Marine Aspect Warriors" thing. For example, between Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Desolators, Hellblasters and (if you took off the ridiculous flight gear and just made them autocannon wielders) Suppressors, you have the makings of what could easily be a Primaris Devastator squad. Realistically "Devastators with heavy bolters/plasma incinerators/missile launchers/etc" which could be freely mixed if you wanted multi-weapon squads would have been fine IMO and would have fit much better in with the traditional Space Marine theme of tactical flexibility and bespoke composition/wargear.

 

Speaking purely on aesthetics, if the Suppressors had their autocannons replaced with something more compact (like heavy bolters, assault cannons on the scale of the older Terminator sculpts, or heavy flamers) and the weird grav-chute things replaced with more simple jet packs? I'd actually say the concept would work, or at least look less goofy. To expand on that and redesign the unit further, the idea of a Marine squad that effectively work like one-man attack helicopters or Harriers, popping out from behind cover, unleashing a barrage of fire at relatively close range and then hiding again, is actually a good one- and if armed with close-range assault weapons like heavy flamers or multi-meltas, that would make the flight capability make a lot more sense. The problem is, they're so confusingly designed with so many contradictory elements it's not clear just from looking at them what they do.

[gideon stargreave]

I hated primaris when they first came out. I had built and almost painted the first company of the blood angels and I hated primaris. I hated them because their proportions were so much better. I hated them because they were the space marines we’d always deserved. I hated them because it reminded me of the change to multipart back in the 2nd 3rd crossover period. All my hard work to make beautiful blood angels, and then suddenly beautiful models came fresh out the box. 
 

now to address the grim dark element. Despite being such fantastic minis, they didn’t seem to have it. Why? 
 

They all looked the same. One of the key elements for me of the setting is that power armour suits are holy relics, lovingly maintained and repaired and inherited for thousands of years. The single mark 2 helm in a squad. The mark 5 Pauldrons here and there. The mix of power weapon and chain sword types. Everything felt old and holy and blessed. All the new assault primaris have the same sword, the same bolt pistol (can’t remember it’s actual name). Fast forward to the end of last year and the rebirth of my blood angels. I’ve mixed primaris and cataphracti kits to make various armour marks, I’ve added bits from storm cast and plague marines and og terminators, and I’ve given them all my old blood angels’ unique weaponry. They look amazing. They feel part of the setting. I can’t wait to see if GW start focusing on customization Within the kits rather than from conversions.

[jaxom]

This just occurred to me, so I had to check as I run out the door, but Theod of the Golden Halos on p. 41 of the Codex, a Grimdark Phobos marine. Don't have time to snap picture.

[Robbienw]

I distinctly remember Primaris fans in 2017 saying how they liked Primaris because they were supposedly cleaner than old marines with less bling on them 

[Lemondish]

19 hours ago, Robbienw said:

I distinctly remember Primaris fans in 2017 saying how they liked Primaris because they were supposedly cleaner than old marines with less bling on them 

 

Their heroes, like Captains and Lieutenants, definitely felt much cleaner  than the Captains of old. I know that was intentional from GW.

[Cryptshadow]

On 4/27/2023 at 4:09 AM, jaxom said:

This just occurred to me, so I had to check as I run out the door, but Theod of the Golden Halos on p. 41 of the Codex, a Grimdark Phobos marine. Don't have time to snap picture.

Brother Theodthis guy?

Edited April 29, 2023 by Cryptshadow

[jaxom]

13 hours ago, Cryptshadow said:

Brother Theodthis guy?

Yeah, the codex talks about his ritual kill markings, and how he's carrying the skull of his brother who died as a neophyte as a reminder of guilt and the consequences of failure. It's a good example of Grimdark is about tone, not necessarily silhouette. 

[Arkangilos]

17 hours ago, Cryptshadow said:

Brother Theodthis guy?

The image doesn’t show up for me :(

[BitsHammer]

On 4/27/2023 at 2:24 PM, Robbienw said:

I distinctly remember Primaris fans in 2017 saying how they liked Primaris because they were supposedly cleaner than old marines with less bling on them 

As I Primaris fan I just felt they are more fun to paint. The extra chonk makes painting detail easier.

On 4/28/2023 at 9:58 AM, Lemondish said:

 

Their heroes, like Captains and Lieutenants, definitely felt much cleaner  than the Captains of old. I know that was intentional from GW.

Depends on which Captains we're talking about. There are a lot of classic ones who are a cape and back banner as their only real difference between them and other minis in their army.

[Khornestar]

On 4/27/2023 at 2:24 PM, Robbienw said:

I distinctly remember Primaris fans in 2017 saying how they liked Primaris because they were supposedly cleaner than old marines with less bling on them 

Hmm, maybe some did. They just look overall better than firstborn to many of us. Sculpts, proportions, etc.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Khornestar

[The Neverborn]

As they won't be a "thing" in 40k I'm hoping to see cheap Firstborn marines on ebay, good time to get in 30k.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

https://tenor.com/view/barney-stinson-himym-new-new-is-better-gif-12563747

[Warden-Paints]

I have a feeling that the plastic Sternguard kit was the final straw for Jes Goodwin and prompted Primaris. I'm sure he referred to them as Christmas trees. I believe he also mentioned Space Wolves jumping the shark (I'm paraphrasing there of course). 

 

Great thread btw, a lot of well thought out and clearly expressed arguments in here. Several not so much too, but that's to be expected 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Warden-Paints

[Gamiel]

Regarding primaris that are gothic do we have not just the Bladeguards from the Indomitus box (sorry if already posted and I have missed it):

  

 

56 minutes ago, Warden-Paints said:

I have a feeling that the plastic Sternguard kit was the final straw for Jes Goodwin and prompted Primaris. I'm sure he referred to them as Christmas trees. I believe he also mentioned Space Wolves jumping the shark (I'm paraphrasing there of course). 

Can you refer to a source for this?

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Warden-Paints said:

I have a feeling that the plastic Sternguard kit was the final straw for Jes Goodwin and prompted Primaris. I'm sure he referred to them as Christmas trees. I believe he also mentioned Space Wolves jumping the shark (I'm paraphrasing there of course). 

 

Great thread btw, a lot of well thought out and clearly expressed arguments in here. Several not so much too, but that's to be expected 

There is definitely a line with bling, and some kits went so far past the line they couldn't even see the line.

 

There is also a difference between bling and gothic, honestly too much of the former makes it less the latter IMO too (as does too little - I don't deny that intercessors aren't gothic looking, but nor are tactical marines).

 

For me, the bladeguard are dangerously close to the line but don't go past it, i'm interested to see what the MPK for the new sternguard will be like honestly!

[Orange Knight]

I agree that the Bladeguard are absolutely on the line - One more dangly bit on any model would push them over!

 

I think the old Sternguard kit was very poor - not only were they overly blinged up, but the proportions of the models seemed poor even by the squat, heroic-scale standards of the old model line. Of course there are worse offenders, such as Attack Bikes and Scouts.

 

@Warden-Paints

 

I do actually recall that comment being made, but don't remember where or when. I think it was an interview at an event?

[Vermintide]

  

It is my position that the whole Space Knight-Templars image of Marines is in itself a flanderisation, based on the most excessive of GW's mid-00s grimderp.

 

The OG Marines were never really like that. They had some leanings to it in the lore and, indeed, they very occasionally had stuff like banners and sometimes robes etc in keeping with the overall techno-feudal aesthetic of the setting. But your average Marine was always "clean" and "tacticool". Despite all the regressive Dune-esque trappings of the setting, Marines were very much still high-tech futuristic Space Marines with fancy space gadgets and sci-fi weapons and everything. Look at the early models from the older (and therefore objectively superior) editions through the 80s and 90s- There's really very minimal use of robes or gothic ornamentation etc. All of that stuff is an aesthetic development that took place during the thoroughly un-cool and soulless mid-hammer era.

 

So what I am saying is, new is bad and old is good, indeed; but grimdark firstborn space marines were already bad and new, and people who like them are therefore objectively wrong and lacking in taste. Primaris is a return to form and should be praised as such.

 

Spoiler

This argument is obviously facetious, but I dare you to prove it wrong.

 

[Gamiel]

1 hour ago, Vermintide said:

The OG Marines were never really like that.

which marines are you refering to as the OG ones?

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, Vermintide said:

*Snip*

The problem with the Primaris stuff isn't that it's not "gothic". It's that a lot of it is flat-out ugly, and also that it's replacing original Marines whilst GW claims it isn't. If they wanted to rescale Space Marines, they should have just done that.

 

Speaking as someone that likes both much older Marine designs and the intermediate-period, more heavily decorated Marines of the late 90s to early-mid 2000s, enough that I'm using the 4th edition Codex to build a small army of (mostly) old-scale Astartes, most of the truly hideous models in the range came out from the 2010s onwards. Centurions, the flyers, and of course a lot (though not all) of the Primaris range. They had a weird, toy-like quality that their predecessors didn't, at the base design level.

 

It's also worth noting a lot of pre-Primaris Marine kits were intended as "blank canvas" models to be converted and decorated as the owner saw fit, with pre-sculpted bling being reserved for character models, usually made of pewter. Earlier concept art even suggests ways of converting the base kits to represent different Chapters/Traitor Legions (John Blanche's Chaos Space Marine spread, reprinted in Index Chaotica: Apocrypha springs to mind). And it's not just the Marines themselves. The humble Rhino, for instance, can be as clean or decorated as you want depending on what you glue/paint onto its armoured sides, and it still looks appropriate. The Repulsor, meanwhile, will look incredibly silly without major conversion regardless of how many purity seals you put on it, because at its core it is a kinda daft design.

 

There's good Primaris designs; most of the more "generic" minis work fine, even if I absolutely detest the "Imperial Aspect Warriors" approach (which flies completely in the face of the Space Marine doctrine) and the Bladeguard along with some of the character models are good too. The fact they happen to be some of the more "gothic" models is more coincidental than anything else; one model I am rather fond of is Tor Garadon, who isn't especially blingy at all, but captures the "classic Space Marine hero" vibe pretty well.

[Gamiel]

22 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

It's that a lot of it is flat-out ugly

We will have to disagree here. 

[Vermintide]

2 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

 a lot of it is flat-out ugly

 

Well that is flat out subjective, isn't it.

 

Hence my appeal to old-is-good hipsterism. We can't use individual opinions as a metric, can we, or else we will quite literally be here forever. No, we need something concrete and scientific to measure this against. The only thing we CAN  rely on is the fact that minis from RT and 2nd Edition are the yardsticks of Soul, Taste and Quality. To argue based on anything else is simply conjecture and empty rhetoric.

 

I have plenty of experience in this subject- Argue with me about old school thrash or death metal, and I will soon put any doubt to rest that new can possibly be good when old is in every case superior. This is the order of the world. Every World Painted Blood has its Hell Awaits. This is simply inescapable logic.

[Evil Eye]

12 minutes ago, Vermintide said:

Hence my appeal to old-is-good hipsterism

So, strawmanning?

 

Again- if GW wanted to rescale/update Marines they could easily have done so WITHOUT replacing them with almost-but-not-quite "role fillers", claiming they weren't going to replace them and then replacing them anyway and telling understandably angry people "Just buy the new Primaris Redunanators instead!".

 

And yes, a lot of Primaris units (and latter-end Firstborn units too) being ugly is subjective- however, given the reverse (them being aesthetically appealing) is also subjective, that basically reduces the entire discussion to "Well that's just subjective". By the same book, the reasoning of "GW needed to make entirely new Marine designs" is subjective too, and we could have carried on for many more years without any more scale creep or invalidating older models- in the case of things like Sternguard, models that were still relatively new. At the end of the day, deflecting criticisms of new models with "that's subjective" is rather disingenuous when talking about something that's entirely subjective anyway (the virtues of tiny plastic soldiers). Especially when these new models (whose value over the originals is purely subjective) are being pushed as replacements for models lots of people preferred as if they were objective upgrades, and people who weren't happy about it were clearly mad for NOT celebrating it. If this was part of a true rescale, keeping the old designs the same but just upgrading them with new tooling and at a better scale- like they did with the Chaos Space Marine range- then you might have a point (even if I could still understand people being unhappy that potentially decades-in-the-making collections were now obsolete). But it's not- it's replacing one range with another one.

 

Look at it this way; suppose this was Eldar, and when the Aeldari rebrand came they completely restructured how the faction worked and what they looked like. Falcons, Vypers and Wraithlords were all done away with in favour of Lazerhawks, Battlesnakes and Spookbots, which were bigger and very different designs to the models they were ostensibly upgrades of. You were then told Eldar weren't going anywhere and Aeldari would compliment the range. And then that turned out to be a lie and Wraithlords got discontinued and removed from the Codex, leaving you stuck with Spookbots, which you didn't like compared to the Wraithlord. You'd be annoyed, right? Regardless of the subjectivity of which design is "better", it's objective fact that one is being made at the expense of the other, and the two designs are not directly compatible (you couldn't reasonably run a Wraithlord as a Spookbot).

[Blindhamster]

Actually, them doing a new design because they felt they needed to isn’t subjective, if they felt they needed to, they needed to, as they’re the creators and owners. The opinion they didn’t need to or did not need to from the fan base is entirely subjective though.

 

Jes Goodwin deciding he wanted to do something with them and improve them was done because he felt it was time and he could.

 

But if we are focusing on the subjective opinions now, in my opinion, more of the primaris range is good looking than bad, with the only legitimately bad looking models being maybe the suppressors and aggressors, and even those I like more than the worst looking firstborn models personally (centurions, the flyers being the stand outs). The grav vehicles I get being marmite, personally I love them (though I don’t use all the baggage on mine). I also actually really like the Phobos units personally, I just wish they had better movement in game lol

 

and based on todays post, it seems that whilst the models are being discontinued they are indeed advocating using the old models as the new units where needed.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Vermintide said:

Well that is flat out subjective, isn't

No, but it is wrong. :p

 

Beauty/ugliness is objective. Taste is subjective.

Some people think objectively beautiful things are ugly, and they think that objectively ugly things are beautiful (see modern art with poop smeared on walls).

 

 

[Evil Eye]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

as they’re the creators and owners.

GW has made terrible decisions before. Just because they decided to do something doesn't mean they were objectively right to do so. Creators (or license-owners) can be wrong about their own properties- look at the state of Star Wars as an example of that.