Space Marines 10th ed Leviathan Starter set - Space Marines

[mecanojavi99]

39 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

I hope the Sternguard means Vanguard are also coming and we'll see Assualt, Tactical, and Devastators Primaris too. If they gotta go I'd like a replacement cuase they are irreplaceable. Long live the grav gun.

It's more likely we'll see a dedicated Grav based unit than a return to the flexibility of old, it has been obvious for a while now that SM are moving towards HH style of units, single weapon loadouts.

[mecanojavi99]

22 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I just hope that one day they give us proper mk X tactical squad with mixed load outs.

 

It seems weird to me that the battlefield flexibility went backwards when the greatest thinker woke up.

I don't see that happening considering that GW has been moving in the opposite direction for several years now. 

 

The Lore that GW gave is that Papa

Smurf is precisely the one that is moving marines back to HH style, even writing it down as such in the revised version of the Codex Astartes

[Lemondish]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I’m shocked we haven’t heard more concerning rules, considering demo games were going on.

 

I've gathered a few bits I've picked up from folks doing AMA style posts on Reddit...in no particular order:

 

• The demo games are between 4 units of 5 Infernus Marines and two Dreadnaughts against 4 units of 10 Gaunts and 2 Screamer-Killers fighting a simplified mission with one central objective played over 2 rounds for time
• They were not shown the two-page spread of detachment rules, so no stratagems were shared...though the staff member did allow the use of the Marine one that lets you fall back and shoot
• Army rules weren't in effect either - all they had were the data sheets and whatever the staff member running the match told them
• Feeling was that it was less a demo of 10th and more a demo of these new units
• Terrain rules didn't really come into effect, but nobody tried to go upstairs in any of the ruins
• Torrent weapon ability is just the flamer rule, as expected: auto-hits
• Blast changed - they roll one additional attack dice for every 5 models in the target unit. So, if you're firing at a 30-model unit with a Blast weapon that fires d6 shots, you'll get d6+6 shots total
• Models can no longer stand on top of objective markers - intent is to avoid silly instances like a Knight covering it entirely, and so that every player can clearly see all objectives markers on the table at any time
• Piling in is the same, but apparently the rules for who can fight is a bit different - a model that is in base contact with an enemy figure can fight it, as can any models that are in base contact with that first model
• Consolidation is for units that are no longer in engagement range after a fight and the move can only be done if you end in engagement range of an enemy or if it puts them in control of an objective
• Overwatch is a stratagem still, can be used once a turn with one unit, and you can fire it when an opponent finishes a move, starts a charge, or ends a charge
• Desperate Escape tests are basically combat attrition, so we still have ways for units to flee - if you choose to fall back while affected by battle-shock, you roll a die for each model doing so and, for each 1 or 2, that model flees
• The Sergeants in the Infernus units do not have any additional attacks compared to the bog standard troopers, but that's to be expected as they did not include any special melee weapons
• There's a difference in the data cards shown on the site and the ones they have to play with, specifically with the Faction rule for the Infernus squad (it shows a different faction ability, Angels of Death, instead of Oath of Moment) - when asked, the staff said not to look into it too much since they are sheets for the demo
  • Speculation has suggested these are the Combat Patrol rules

I'll keep an eye out for more junk, but it likely won't be that illuminating all things considered.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Lemondish
Reorganized for clarity

[spessmarine]

4 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

• The demo games are between 4 units of 5 Infernus Marines and two Dreadnaughts against 4 units of 10 Gaunts and 2 Screamer-Killers fighting a simplified mission with one central objective played over 2 rounds for time
• They were not shown the two-page spread of detachment rules, so no stratagems were shared...though the staff member did allow the use of the Marine one that lets you fall back and shoot
• Army rules weren't in effect either - all they had were the data sheets and whatever the staff member running the match told them
• Feeling was that it was less a demo of 10th and more a demo of these new units

Definitely a bit lame.
Release isn't that far off now GW, you can let people play with the launch box proper now.

[ZeroWolf]

Maybe they wanted the games to be over quicker to allow  more  people to try, especially if they were doing 2v2 as well.

[Urauloth]

Not sure about that dread (and a bit sad to see the mortis designation go away) but the infantry all look fantastic. Really want the infernus squad to paint as Salamanders.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I love the Dreadnought, miles better than the ugly thing that is the Redemptor. Better than the Brutalis, but only by a whisker, and on par with both version of the Leviathan Siege Dreadnought a the Castaferrum? Aka Boxnought and all of its variants.

 

Edit: miles better than the Contemptor and Dorado Dreadnought. I know this last viewpoint will be unpopular.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Captain Smashy Pants

[OttoVonAwesome]

27 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

It's more likely we'll see a dedicated Grav based unit than a return to the flexibility of old, it has been obvious for a while now that SM are moving towards HH style of units, single weapon loadouts.

Up until now that is with the Sternguard just being Sternguard in mk 10. I'm not gonna give up hope especially considering the Tactical squad is still a best seller. Primaris have run out of single load out squads to do now anyway. Sure a dedicated Grav unit is possible but now it's also possible they save em for a refresh of the old units especially if the new sternguard full kit is packing 2 grav guns and 2 combi grav and a grav pistol like the one it's replacing.

[Lemondish]

16 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

Definitely a bit lame.
Release isn't that far off now GW, you can let people play with the launch box proper now.

 

Given some folks waited in queue to play for over 2 hours, I think it's more a factor of keeping things going along as quickly as possible.

[Arkangilos]

38 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

It's more likely we'll see a dedicated Grav based unit than a return to the flexibility of old, it has been obvious for a while now that SM are moving towards HH style of units, single weapon loadouts.

It made sense for the legions, it doesn’t for a chapter.

 

And there was a reason (a really good one), that Guilliman went that way with the flexibility.

[BrainFireBob]

38 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

It's more likely we'll see a dedicated Grav based unit than a return to the flexibility of old, it has been obvious for a while now that SM are moving towards HH style of units, single weapon loadouts.

40k was always in that weird space between a squad and company level game with RPG elements.

 

The current Dev team- either internally or by directive- is trying really hard to turn it into a squad game. That means what a *squad* can do is how they're balancing. Part of their stated reason is frustration that people can't build the best option out-of-box. Personally, I think that's a mistake- when elite units were hard to put together, sure, the pay to win guy (who's floating anyway) would have it, but the difficulty of putting it together increased ownership and therefore brand investment. The number of late 30s to late 40s still active players would seem to back this- when you could finally put down that Vanguard squad with power weapons, that you converted- it makes them more yours. 

 

Anyway, the fact that there was always an overall best loadout, depending on edition, inherently meant if you balanced against it, you were penalizing everything else, and the reverse was true. Do all Tac squads have a flamer, power sword, heavy bolter, 10 members, in a rhino? Or do they all have a thunderhammer/powerfist, combi plasma, plasma gun, and asscannon/lascannon razorback? 

 

The options, from this perspective, are the problem. I don't like it, but I get it.

35 minutes ago, Captain Smashy Pants said:

I love the Dreadnought, miles better than the ugly thing that is the Redemptor. Better than the Brutalis, but only by a whisker, and on par with both version of the Leviathan Siege Dreadnought a the Castaferrum? Aka Boxnought and all of its variants.

 

Edit: miles better than the Contemptor and Dorado Dreadnought. I know this last viewpoint will be unpopular.

Half unpopular. Some Contemptor loadouts look slick. The Deredeo is so 1950s flying saucer, though!

[Spaced Hulk]

5 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

I don't see that happening considering that GW has been moving in the opposite direction for several years now. 

 

The Lore that GW gave is that Papa

Smurf is precisely the one that is moving marines back to HH style, even writing it down as such in the revised version of the Codex Astartes

Personally, I'd say that the only reason we haven't had Primaris versions of the classic 3 squad types (Tactical, Assault & Devastator) is simply that GW are still selling the Firstborn versions. At some point, those kits will be retired, and we will either get new, rescaled Firstborn, or Primaris versions of the classic squads. Considering the Sternguard they've just previewed, I'd bet on the latter myself. Primaris Assault Marines will probably be next, perhaps to coincide with a future Blood Angel release. Tacs and Devs might take longer, depending on how quickly they want to phase out the current Firstborn.

 

GW's Prime Directive is simply to sell Space Marines. If they can make money out of Primaris Tactical squads (and let's face it, they'd sell like crazy), then I think it's inevitable.

 

Back on topic, I wonder if a future multipart Sternguard kit will include a choice of either classic helmets or Mark X helms for each model?

[BrainFireBob]

My guess at this point is we'll get quasi-Primaris replacements (hybrid of MkX and rescaled older mark bits blended, like the Sternguard but more so), and the transport restrictions will vanish. Essentially, pretending the Firstborn/Primaris divide wasn't that big of a distinction, and was mainly the "cleaning up" of geneseed with the extra organs being available for all Marines. With some tossed in about the new gear and squad orgs being integrated because they had good applications.

 

Only way to resolve the stupid split they created in the community. No one will be satisfied, everyone will decide they finally "actually'" won, there will be sniping about it for years.

[prava]

43 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

 

I've gathered a few bits I've picked up from folks doing AMA style posts on Reddit...in no particular order:

 

• The demo games are between 4 units of 5 Infernus Marines and two Dreadnaughts against 4 units of 10 Gaunts and 2 Screamer-Killers fighting a simplified mission with one central objective played over 2 rounds for time
• They were not shown the two-page spread of detachment rules, so no stratagems were shared...though the staff member did allow the use of the Marine one that lets you fall back and shoot
• Army rules weren't in effect either - all they had were the data sheets and whatever the staff member running the match told them
• Feeling was that it was less a demo of 10th and more a demo of these new units
• Terrain rules didn't really come into effect, but nobody tried to go upstairs in any of the ruins
• Torrent weapon ability is just the flamer rule, as expected: auto-hits
• Blast changed - they roll one additional attack dice for every 5 models in the target unit. So, if you're firing at a 30-model unit with a Blast weapon that fires d6 shots, you'll get d6+6 shots total
• Models can no longer stand on top of objective markers - intent is to avoid silly instances like a Knight covering it entirely, and so that every player can clearly see all objectives markers on the table at any time
• Piling in is the same, but apparently the rules for who can fight is a bit different - a model that is in base contact with an enemy figure can fight it, as can any models that are in base contact with that first model
• Consolidation is for units that are no longer in engagement range after a fight and the move can only be done if you end in engagement range of an enemy or if it puts them in control of an objective
• Overwatch is a stratagem still, can be used once a turn with one unit, and you can fire it when an opponent finishes a move, starts a charge, or ends a charge
• Desperate Escape tests are basically combat attrition, so we still have ways for units to flee - if you choose to fall back while affected by battle-shock, you roll a die for each model doing so and, for each 1 or 2, that model flees
• The Sergeants in the Infernus units do not have any additional attacks compared to the bog standard troopers, but that's to be expected as they did not include any special melee weapons
• There's a difference in the data cards shown on the site and the ones they have to play with, specifically with the Faction rule for the Infernus squad (it shows a different faction ability, Angels of Death, instead of Oath of Moment) - when asked, the staff said not to look into it too much since they are sheets for the demo
  • Speculation has suggested these are the Combat Patrol rules

I'll keep an eye out for more junk, but it likely won't be that illuminating all things considered.

 

Thank you for doing the Emperor's work.

 

New Blast rule seems super super powerful.

 

12 minutes ago, BrainFireBob said:

40k was always in that weird space between a squad and company level game with RPG elements.

 

The current Dev team- either internally or by directive- is trying really hard to turn it into a squad game. That means what a *squad* can do is how they're balancing. Part of their stated reason is frustration that people can't build the best option out-of-box. Personally, I think that's a mistake- when elite units were hard to put together, sure, the pay to win guy (who's floating anyway) would have it, but the difficulty of putting it together increased ownership and therefore brand investment. The number of late 30s to late 40s still active players would seem to back this- when you could finally put down that Vanguard squad with power weapons, that you converted- it makes them more yours. 

 

Anyway, the fact that there was always an overall best loadout, depending on edition, inherently meant if you balanced against it, you were penalizing everything else, and the reverse was true. Do all Tac squads have a flamer, power sword, heavy bolter, 10 members, in a rhino? Or do they all have a thunderhammer/powerfist, combi plasma, plasma gun, and asscannon/lascannon razorback? 

 

The options, from this perspective, are the problem. I don't like it, but I get it.

 

I am on the exact opposite side of things. To me, assembling a unit that had options and not knowing which of those was the optimal caused me stress. Now, I can build the unit to my hearts content and not fear of it not being the best possible.

 

Also, this alleviates the balancing problem that this game has suffered for ever, and eases the wysiwyg thing.

[Nephaston]

My Guess is that the Tactical Marine archetype will live on in Sternguard Squad, because the new one seems to follow the same pattern of a special/combi-weapon on the Sergeant, another on a regular goon, a heavy weapon, while the remaining two goobers have bolter duty.

 

That is if the multipart doesn't go buck wild and off the rails with options.

[BrainFireBob]

Minis aren't used up, you can *change* loadouts later- and your stress is other people's loss, you realize. Or magnetize. Or build multiple squads. I've done all these.

 

When I started in 3rd, 10 marines with a vet sarge was 165. 

 

Squad 1: Flamer, power sword, missile launcher, rhino- 86 more points. 

 

Squad 2: Plasmagun, powerfist, plasma pistol, rhino, multimelta- IIRC, 120 more points. 

 

Across 3 Troops, that's an additional unit. 

 

We're losing that play space for lists. The local optima and the army wide optima are converging. That's...somewhat boring.

[Blindhamster]

27 minutes ago, Spaced Hulk said:

Personally, I'd say that the only reason we haven't had Primaris versions of the classic 3 squad types (Tactical, Assault & Devastator) is simply that GW are still selling the Firstborn versions. At some point, those kits will be retired, and we will either get new, rescaled Firstborn, or Primaris versions of the classic squads. Considering the Sternguard they've just previewed, I'd bet on the latter myself. Primaris Assault Marines will probably be next, perhaps to coincide with a future Blood Angel release. Tacs and Devs might take longer, depending on how quickly they want to phase out the current Firstborn.

 

GW's Prime Directive is simply to sell Space Marines. If they can make money out of Primaris Tactical squads (and let's face it, they'd sell like crazy), then I think it's inevitable.

 

Back on topic, I wonder if a future multipart Sternguard kit will include a choice of either classic helmets or Mark X helms for each model?

more likely it'll be enough mkX for all of them, enough bare head for all of them, and a couple of bonus heads - prehaps 2 mk7 and a mk6

[ZeroWolf]

34 minutes ago, Spaced Hulk said:

Personally, I'd say that the only reason we haven't had Primaris versions of the classic 3 squad types (Tactical, Assault & Devastator) is simply that GW are still selling the Firstborn versions. At some point, those kits will be retired, and we will either get new, rescaled Firstborn, or Primaris versions of the classic squads. Considering the Sternguard they've just previewed, I'd bet on the latter myself. Primaris Assault Marines will probably be next, perhaps to coincide with a future Blood Angel release. Tacs and Devs might take longer, depending on how quickly they want to phase out the current Firstborn.

 

GW's Prime Directive is simply to sell Space Marines. If they can make money out of Primaris Tactical squads (and let's face it, they'd sell like crazy), then I think it's inevitable.

 

Back on topic, I wonder if a future multipart Sternguard kit will include a choice of either classic helmets or Mark X helms for each model?

According to one of Valraks sources, primaris jump pack assault marines have been done for a while (that's why they're in Space Marine 2), just a matter for GW to find the best time to release them. I did think that they were holding out for that aforementioned games release but with that being delayed, who knows.

[mecanojavi99]

1 hour ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Up until now that is with the Sternguard just being Sternguard in mk 10. I'm not gonna give up hope especially considering the Tactical squad is still a best seller. Primaris have run out of single load out squads to do now anyway. Sure a dedicated Grav unit is possible but now it's also possible they save em for a refresh of the old units especially if the new sternguard full kit is packing 2 grav guns and 2 combi grav and a grav pistol like the one it's replacing.

Sternguard are meant to be the elite 1st company with access to multiple special weapons, specially Combi weapons, otherwise you just have Veteran Intercessors, them being exactly what they are supossed to be doesn't mean anything, specially when in the same release we are getting a unit of only flamers, which means GW is still doing single loadout squads.

 

I seriously don't see the point in a refresh of Tacticals and Devastators, the first was replaced by Intercessors as the basic battleline unit and Devastators have been divided into multiple specialized units, only missing a Grav focused one.

[Valerian]

49 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

According to one of Valraks sources, primaris jump pack assault marines have been done for a while (that's why they're in Space Marine 2), just a matter for GW to find the best time to release them. I did think that they were holding out for that aforementioned games release but with that being delayed, who knows.

 

I could be way off here, but it seems to me that a Primaris Assault Intercessor Squad with Jump Packs would be one of the best selling units they could produce.  Maybe these new Terminators could compete with that, but I can't imagine too many others have the same level of demand.

[mecanojavi99]

1 hour ago, Spaced Hulk said:

Personally, I'd say that the only reason we haven't had Primaris versions of the classic 3 squad types (Tactical, Assault & Devastator) is simply that GW are still selling the Firstborn versions. At some point, those kits will be retired, and we will either get new, rescaled Firstborn, or Primaris versions of the classic squads. Considering the Sternguard they've just previewed, I'd bet on the latter myself. Primaris Assault Marines will probably be next, perhaps to coincide with a future Blood Angel release. Tacs and Devs might take longer, depending on how quickly they want to phase out the current Firstborn.

 

GW's Prime Directive is simply to sell Space Marines. If they can make money out of Primaris Tactical squads (and let's face it, they'd sell like crazy), then I think it's inevitable.

 

Back on topic, I wonder if a future multipart Sternguard kit will include a choice of either classic helmets or Mark X helms for each model?

Or they simply have no intention of refreshing them other than Assaults, since there is no Primaris equivalent of them.

 

Sternguard being exactly what they are supossed to be, elite 1st company marines with special weapons, isn't an indicative of what GW plans to do, specially when in this same release we are getting another single loadout unit.

 

IMO, Tacs and Devs no longer fit within modern SM armies, most squads are meant to specialize on X weapon or X role.

[Valerian]

7 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

and Devastators have been divided into multiple specialized units...

 

Desolators, clearly, but what else? Eradicators, maybe?  What about all of the other things you could do with Devastators (Heavy Bolters, Plasma Cannons, Lascannons)?

[ZeroWolf]

12 minutes ago, Valerian said:

 

I could be way off here, but it seems to me that a Primaris Assault Intercessor Squad with Jump Packs would be one of the best selling units they could produce.  Maybe these new Terminators could compete with that, but I can't imagine too many others have the same level of demand.

I concur, I'd buy two boxes at least. I'm not sure why, but I've always loved the regular assault marines, so they would find a home in my army.

[jimbo1701]

Ultimate curve ball - gw releases 11th starter set with assault, devastator and tactical marines in. Community explodes. 

[mecanojavi99]

15 minutes ago, Valerian said:

 

Desolators, clearly, but what else? Eradicators, maybe?  What about all of the other things you could do with Devastators (Heavy Bolters, Plasma Cannons, Lascannons)?

Heavy Intercessors have access to 3 different flavours of Heavy Bolter, including Heavy Bolt Rifles which are rifle size Heavy Bolters.

 

Eliminators can all be equipped with Las Fusils which are rifle size Lascanons 

 

Eradicators are an entire unit of meltas, with access to Multimeltas and Heavy Melta Rifles.

 

Hellblasters are an entire unit of Plasmas with access to 3 different flavours, ranging from Rifle to Cannon.

 

The only weapon missing is Grav, which wouldn't surprise me if it was a thing in the future.

 

As you can see, GW has spread out the Dev weapons around into multiple units, why would they suddenly release Devs again after years of doing this?