Space Marines 10th ed Leviathan Starter set - Space Marines

[Castellan Wulfrik]

3 hours ago, mecanojavi99 said:

I don't see that happening considering that GW has been moving in the opposite direction for several years now. 

 

The Lore that GW gave is that Papa

Smurf is precisely the one that is moving marines back to HH style, even writing it down as such in the revised version of the Codex Astartes

And now they’re clearly moving in the opposite direction. It’s obviously far too too late to completely abandon the primaris idea but everything they’ve done with this new edition shows they’re attempting to backpedal as much as they still can. I would expect that the design team has been given the brief to design more resculpted kits and less new units. It’s funny you should mention veteran intercessors, I wouldn’t be surprised if one day in the future they get replaced completely in the codex with sternguard. Which is ironic because they were clearly intended to be the replacement for sternguard. If this were not the case this new unit would simply be named veteran intercessors and their weapon options would be updated. As it stands veteran intercessors are a redundant option.

[Lemondish]

2 minutes ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

As it stands veteran intercessors are a redundant option.

 

As it stands, we have decent reason to believe they don't exist, otherwise they would have likely been on the list of units a Lieutenant can join.

[WrathOfTheLion]

3 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

 

As it stands, we have decent reason to believe they don't exist, otherwise they would have likely been on the list of units a Lieutenant can join.

They always seemed not very well thought out as a unit to me. Playing predominantly Dark Angels, it looked like they never bothered to find a place in the Chapter organization the unit should be in. They aren't company veterans, aren't Deathwing and obviously aren't Ravenwing, so do the just go in a standard Battleline company?

 

They were a cool concept, but not well executed, so I think they're gone for that and other reasons.

[KiltedMarine]

14 hours ago, Arbedark said:

The Dread looks totally Battletech, in the best possible way, and I need 3 of them immediately. 

Same.  And a campaign bade with a sun and sword on the right leg of each one.

[Marshal Mittens]

1 hour ago, mecanojavi99 said:

Heavy Intercessors have access to 3 different flavours of Heavy Bolter, including Heavy Bolt Rifles which are rifle size Heavy Bolters.

 

Eliminators can all be equipped with Las Fusils which are rifle size Lascanons 

 

Eradicators are an entire unit of meltas, with access to Multimeltas and Heavy Melta Rifles.

 

Hellblasters are an entire unit of Plasmas with access to 3 different flavours, ranging from Rifle to Cannon.

 

The only weapon missing is Grav, which wouldn't surprise me if it was a thing in the future.

 

As you can see, GW has spread out the Dev weapons around into multiple units, why would they suddenly release Devs again after years of doing this?

 

I imagine Heavy Intercessors and Hellblasters will get the Intercessor treatment and their 3 flavors of weapon will be rolled into one. 

 

I wonder if we get new Vanguard Veterans with Jump Melee primaris marines later in 10th?

Edited April 29, 2023 by Marshal Mittens

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

With regards to Devastators I think they’ll end up going extinct. Yes they can be fielded with a mixed loadout, but people tended to max out on a particular weapon dependant on what the squads  intended target was. So from a gaming perspective having specialist heavy weapon squads with a single load out and role and squatting Devastators makes sense. On the flip side, if GW had have handled things the way I would have enlarging and improving the proportions of marines back in 2013 when  they started updating marine kits, starting with Tacticals, Sternguard and Vanguard, and then Devastators and RAS in 2014 I don’t feel we’d have this divide in the community. They would have paid proper respect and reverence to 30 years worth of lore  much loved by many, while at the same time not completely  making peoples collections redundant which is obvious conclusion to the situation. All the people who love Primaris because of their undeniably better proportions and scale, and improved level of detail, would be happy that they got better minis and others would have bought them A) because that’s what would have been available from that point on, and B) because people tend to buy updated models of things they have a long standing affinity for. The way GW have handled CSM is pure class and I lament that imperials could have gotten that. I know chaos players tend to lament the fact that their releases are few and far between, but what you’ve actually have been given is a classy and well thought out series of updates in recent years of units that players have an affinity for. Having said that there are some really cool concepts for units that we otherwise wouldn’t have seen come to fruition. I’ve come to embrace Primaris for better or worse, I just feel a little melancholy thinking about what could have been.

[mecanojavi99]

18 minutes ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

And now they’re clearly moving in the opposite direction. It’s obviously far too too late to completely abandon the primaris idea but everything they’ve done with this new edition shows they’re attempting to backpedal as much as they still can. I would expect that the design team has been given the brief to design more resculpted kits and less new units. It’s funny you should mention veteran intercessors, I wouldn’t be surprised if one day in the future they get replaced completely in the codex with sternguard. Which is ironic because they were clearly intended to be the replacement for sternguard. If this were not the case this new unit would simply be named veteran intercessors and their weapon options would be updated. As it stands veteran intercessors are a redundant option.

Except they aren't backpedalling by any means, all the units in the box are Primaris, Terminators included now that Primaris can use that armor as well, even the Sternguard are Tacticus wearing Primaris with some bits from older patterns.

 

So I fail to see how GW is backpedalling in any way when classic Firstborn unit like Terminators and Sternguard are now Primaris as well, with even more single weapon type squads to boot and a new Primaris Lieutenant.

 

I couldn't care less about Veteran Intercessors and see no point in them now that we have Primaris Sternguard, they were clearly just an interim solution until the Sternguard were released, they weren't even a real unit to begin with, just a stratagem to give extra attacks to Intercessors.

[mecanojavi99]

7 minutes ago, Marshal Mittens said:

 

I imagine Heavy Intercessors and Hellblasters will get the Intercessor treatment and their 3 flavors of weapon will be rolled into one. 

 

I wonder if we get new Vanguard Veterans with Jump Melee primaris marines later in 10th?

For Heavy Intercessors it would be quite a pleasant change, I always hated how convoluted their profile was because of all the 6 different flavours of the same 2 weapons.

 

The easiest way would be to release Primaris Assault Marines with the option to build them as Vanguard Veterans with some old bits and tabards.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

2 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

For Heavy Intercessors it would be quite a pleasant change, I always hated how convoluted their profile was because of all the 6 different flavours of the same 2 weapons.

 

The easiest way would be to release Primaris Assault Marines with the option to build them as Vanguard Veterans with some old bits and tabards.

Hopefully with specialist pistols, power weapons and an Eviscerator like the current RAS have.

[mecanojavi99]

9 minutes ago, Captain Smashy Pants said:

Hopefully with specialist pistols, power weapons and an Eviscerator like the current RAS have.

I imagine they will have the Heavy Bolt Pistols that Assault Intercessors use, with maybe the Sargeant having having some more pistol options like Hand Flamer, Plasma and even Volkite now that it's back.

 

With almost all Power Weapons being consolidated into a single profile it would be cool if they gave us at least 2 options of each weapon to mix them up as we want, with Eviscerators, Thunder Hammers and Power Fists being the only ones with different profiles.

 

The Veterans I could see having the option to all wield Volkite Pistols and maybe something like Combat Shields.

Edited April 29, 2023 by mecanojavi99

[CCE1981]

I can see Heavy Bolt Rifles on Heavy Intercessors getting the same treatment as the regular Bolt Rifle.  
 

on Hellblasters…..idk.  The assault and rapid fire versions for sure, but the cabled heavy version I think could be a different weapon.  It’s a big difference between that one and the rest, at least on the Hellblasters there was a str difference.   I will admit with the consolidating of power weapons and what is looking more likely the combi-weapons they might all be one.

I am a bit anxious to see the rule on the Apothecary Biologis, out of this lot he is the only one I truly want, though the rest of the Marines would have a good home.   The Sternguard being the least likely, I already made my alternative for them…actually with the apparent direction of combi-weapons my combination of Intercessors and Saggitarrum works even better.

 

[OttoVonAwesome]

4 hours ago, mecanojavi99 said:

Heavy Intercessors have access to 3 different flavours of Heavy Bolter, including Heavy Bolt Rifles which are rifle size Heavy Bolters.

 

Eliminators can all be equipped with Las Fusils which are rifle size Lascanons 

 

Eradicators are an entire unit of meltas, with access to Multimeltas and Heavy Melta Rifles.

 

Hellblasters are an entire unit of Plasmas with access to 3 different flavours, ranging from Rifle to Cannon.

 

The only weapon missing is Grav, which wouldn't surprise me if it was a thing in the future.

 

As you can see, GW has spread out the Dev weapons around into multiple units, why would they suddenly release Devs again after years of doing this?

Cuase they can't mix weapons and can't ride in drop pods and can't take bolter boys to soak wounds and can't take melee on thier Sargeants all they do is shoot and don't actually replace Devastators, They don't have Signum's or Cherubs and most importantly they don't have grav. They all have a defined role they aren't the same only similar. Could make the same arguements about Intercessors, Infiltrators etc vs Tacticals and the deal is they still sell very very well and aren't exactly a replacement so why wouldn't you make new ones and they just did that with Sternguard.

[Master Commander Ajax]

3 hours ago, mecanojavi99 said:

So I fail to see how GW is backpedalling in any way when classic Firstborn unit like Terminators and Sternguard are now Primaris as well…

Terminators are a classic Marine unit that have been updated and re-scaled. They’re not specifically Primaris (in the way that Intercessors are for example). This is the first classic Marine unit to get this treatment since Primaris launched. Its a pretty significant change I’d say.

[Master Commander Ajax]

The Terminator Captain is awesome! It'll make a great centrepiece model for people who collect vanilla Marine Chapters and who therefore don’t have access to flashy, named Character models.

[01RTB01]

40 minutes ago, Master Commander Ajax said:

Terminators are a classic Marine unit that have been updated and re-scaled. They’re not specifically Primaris (in the way that Intercessors are for example). This is the first classic Marine unit to get this treatment since Primaris launched. Its a pretty significant change I’d say.

I think the point being made is that primaris can also have terminator armour rather than being exclusively for First born marines.

 

[Mr. Oddity]

Homework is killing me and Microsoft Paint is my friend, so have some quick dreadnought edits based on comments in the thread!

 

13 hours ago, Skywrath said:

Ballistus Dreadnought - gives me laschicken vibes. Might need to do some kitbashing from the Redemptors or Brutalis to make those legs beefier. Datasheet is solid though, T10 with a 2+ sv? Yes please. Wonder what other weapons it comes with.. could we see the return of the Mortis Dreadnought but primaris-fied?

 

Brutalis leg swap for a beefier look:

 

13 hours ago, Shinespider said:

The dread needs a banner between the legs like a Knight. Something to balance out the silhouette. 

 

Modified, scaled-down Knight banner from the codex:

 

Both should be fairly easy, but I have to say the Brutalis legs look fantastic.

[Flaherty]

I just noticed that Ravenguard and Imperial Fists icons have been included on the transfer sheet, an evolution from the 8th and 9th equivalents which only had Ultramarines + BA/DA/SW graphics.

 

I wonder if this portends anything longer term? Or perhaps it is a reflection of sales?

 

I could see them including IF as there may be a lot more Sons of Dorn after they got the poster boy treatment for 30K. However, I'm surprised RG got the nod over Salamanders given the Terminator/flamer heavy nature of the box.

[Marshal Reinhard]

7 hours ago, Captain Smashy Pants said:

With regards to Devastators I think they’ll end up going extinct. Yes they can be fielded with a mixed loadout, but people tended to max out on a particular weapon dependant on what the squads  intended target was. So from a gaming perspective having specialist heavy weapon squads with a single load out and role and squatting Devastators makes sense.

Can't help but agree. Devestators have too many options on too many models for them to ever conceivably include all of them in the box. And the way they design kits now is that everything the unit can take has to be in the box. The rules of 10th means we're consolidating weapon profiles into the fewer ones, like power weapons, and presumably combi-weapons, but doing that with the different heavy weapons was never gonna be an option. Instead we have HH style replacement squads for each weapon type, just missing a few.

 

Devestators will stick around for as long as the molds hold but after that i see them being legended because an updated kit runs counter to GW's design goals.

 

Thanks chapterhouse?

[Matrindur]

1 hour ago, Flaherty said:

I just noticed that Ravenguard and Imperial Fists icons have been included on the transfer sheet, an evolution from the 8th and 9th equivalents which only had Ultramarines + BA/DA/SW graphics.

 

I wonder if this portends anything longer term? Or perhaps it is a reflection of sales?

 

I could see them including IF as there may be a lot more Sons of Dorn after they got the poster boy treatment for 30K. However, I'm surprised RG got the nod over Salamanders given the Terminator/flamer heavy nature of the box.

 

Interestingly IF/RG also where the two Battleforces released first in december before the rest got their own a month or so later

[mecanojavi99]

4 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Cuase they can't mix weapons and can't ride in drop pods and can't take bolter boys to soak wounds and can't take melee on thier Sargeants all they do is shoot and don't actually replace Devastators, They don't have Signum's or Cherubs and most importantly they don't have grav. They all have a defined role they aren't the same only similar. Could make the same arguements about Intercessors, Infiltrators etc vs Tacticals and the deal is they still sell very very well and aren't exactly a replacement so why wouldn't you make new ones and they just did that with Sternguard.

 

I think you are confusing my entire point, obviously they aren't 1:1 replacements, but they are clearly meant to replace them in the role of heavy weapons infantry.

 

Intercessors are meant as the Tactical replacement, they are the basic troop infantry with a focus on using Bolters minus weapon variety because GW is moving SM towards HH, so don't really see how this contradicts anything.

 

Sternguard are a unique type of unit that didn't have an equivalent in the Primaris range, Devs are not in that position, so why would they refresh Devs only for the Grav when they can make a Grav focused unit like they have been doing for years now?

[apostle85]

9 hours ago, mecanojavi99 said:

Heavy Intercessors have access to 3 different flavours of Heavy Bolter, including Heavy Bolt Rifles which are rifle size Heavy Bolters.

 

Eliminators can all be equipped with Las Fusils which are rifle size Lascanons 

 

Eradicators are an entire unit of meltas, with access to Multimeltas and Heavy Melta Rifles.

 

Hellblasters are an entire unit of Plasmas with access to 3 different flavours, ranging from Rifle to Cannon.

 

The only weapon missing is Grav, which wouldn't surprise me if it was a thing in the future.

 

As you can see, GW has spread out the Dev weapons around into multiple units, why would they suddenly release Devs again after years of doing this?

No missile launcher option either, unless I’ve missed something. I admittedly haven’t played in quite some years.

[mecanojavi99]

4 hours ago, Master Commander Ajax said:

Terminators are a classic Marine unit that have been updated and re-scaled. They’re not specifically Primaris (in the way that Intercessors are for example). This is the first classic Marine unit to get this treatment since Primaris launched. Its a pretty significant change I’d say.

This is not GW bringing back Tacs or Devs, is them simply not creating a new type of Termi armor exclusive to Primaris and just using the same as always.

 

IMO, They released a unit of Primaris Terminators that can also be taken by Firstborn, the same way a Rhino is a Firstborn vehicle that can also be taken by Primaris.

 

[mecanojavi99]

2 minutes ago, apostle85 said:

No missile launcher option either, unless I’ve missed something. I admittedly haven’t played in quite some years.

Desolation Squads are the guys for that.

 

 

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, Valerian said:

Desolators, clearly, but what else? Eradicators, maybe?  What about all of the other things you could do with Devastators (Heavy Bolters, Plasma Cannons, Lascannons)?

 

Hellblasters and Las Eliminators fill the plasma and lasacannon niches reasonably well. I agree the weapons are not quite identical but thematically they are pretty close.

 

Heavy bolters and Grav are missing but HBs were not often taken as they have generally been the weakest option in most editions. Heavy Intercessors come close while having he advantage of being Troops. Grav was strong in 7th and 8th but its popularity has waned as GW have tghtened up on full to-Wound rerolls for Marine. Maybe Oath of Moment will see a resurrgence in Grav.

[Marshal Reinhard]

2 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

IMO, They released a unit of Primaris Terminators that can also be taken by Firstborn, the same way a Rhino is a Firstborn vehicle that can also be taken by Primaris.

This is just perspective and semantics in a way. Are they primaris terminators that classics can also take, or are they classics that primaris can also take? Either side will argue vehemently that just the one is the right view, when both are in fact.

 

If there is any change in GW's path, it seems to be one of ambiguity. Are the marines inside Primaris or classic? Who knows? You decide. The style of the kits going forward though is pretty much given to be the same as we have been getting. Old classic kits that run counter to GW's design philosophy like devestators, are likely to be legended once their molds break, as are any modern units that don't seem to have 'taken off' either, like Surpressors most likely.