Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Space Marines

[Khornestar]

3 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

Well, I'll take a post to air my complaints and dissatisfaction. I'll try to keep it short- not here to rain overmuch on the space marine party, I just feel the need to say it once.

 

It appears that what I had suspected when GW announced the disappearance of subfactions- what they meant was the disappearance of subfactions for everyone but marines. I mean, thre CSM Legions get to keep their identities too I guess, so it could be worse.

 

Everyone else?

 

Back to your 2nd-7th status as second class armies that don't merit detail beyond "fluff" pieces in an obscure section of the dex that have zero impact on the game. Want Sam-Hain Eldar where nothing but aspect warriors to show up without a bike to be found? Go ahead, because, because Sam-Hain is just a paint job now. Oh sure, we gave them a nice little fluffy piece of text that doesn't actually mean anything... But that's good enough for you right? Best get painting up my Iyanden Swordwind detachment now, because why not?

 

Otherwise those poor players of the real factions would have too much "cognitive burden" if they wanted to hard counter you in list building or game play itself.

 

Oh what's that? You're concerned that YOU still have cognitive burden when figuring out how to deal with them? Well that's okay, right? I mean it was business as usual from 2nd to 7th- aren't you used to it by now?

 

That all factions can be equal thing? That was an anomaly- a temporary blip on the radar screen. A pipe dream. A tease.

 

(And if I turn out to be wrong on FF Snowflake day, this will be the tastiest Crow I've had to eat in a long time)

Have I missed some obvious info that says every other army’s subfactions will continue getting rules support?

[Karhedron]

39 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

Have I missed some obvious info that says every other army’s subfactions will continue getting rules support?

 

Information on if/how subfactions will be supported is almost non-existant at the moment. I think one article mentioned that subfactions would be handled by separate Detachments which would have different rules. So for example, in the case of Blood Angels, they would continue to get Oath of Moment because it is the SM faction ability. But there might be a "Crimson Blade" Detachment that provides "Red Thirst" which they can use instead of the GSF providing Combat Doctrines. This is just a hypothetical example.

 

One other thing GW mentioned is that Detachments won't be faction-locked. So there might be a biker-themed detachment which could be used to represent White Scars and Ravenwing equally. Similarly there won't be a unique Deathwing detachment but there might be some sort of First Company detachment which any Chapter can use to represent a Terminator-based army.

 

At lesat, that is my understanding.

[Captain Idaho]

I imagine they'll get their own Codex books and Faction abilities as otherwise any Ultramarines can just take Blood Angels rules and that kinda defeats the objective of having a Faction focus for them at all.

 

We'll find out next week I guess.

 

Also... Titans? No, not in 40K please. I can just imagine it now - Warhound titan for 1999pts.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[TheMawr]

There really isnt a lot of mystery or contradiction to what they said before (imho at least)..

DA/BA/SW/BT dont get a faction focus because they are Spacemarine faction that already got a focus ( for now, personally I think they will switch to being their own factions with the codex.)

Within that faction focus they said they will get Detachments to represent their uniqueness.. and players can choose to use those or the Gladius one.

 

They said they would run the faction focuses troughout this month... this month ends on wednesday, the same day the last faction focus article drops.

 

They now said that DA/BA/SW/BT will get a focus article ( note that they do not say faction focus in the "positive" context, they only say faction focus in the "negative" context )

 

Either they played it coy before with the whole devil is in the detail regarding faction focus article and just a focus article, this focus article is a last minute decision based on all the questions or the focus article focuses on the Dark Angels detachment ( as that one was never specifically said to not come.) to globally explain how they retain their own flavor.

 

At least thats what I make of it.

[Khornestar]

28 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Information on if/how subfactions will be supported is almost non-existant at the moment. I think one article mentioned that subfactions would be handled by separate Detachments which would have different rules. So for example, in the case of Blood Angels, they would continue to get Oath of Moment because it is the SM faction ability. But there might be a "Crimson Blade" Detachment that provides "Red Thirst" which they can use instead of the GSF providing Combat Doctrines. This is just a hypothetical example.

 

One other thing GW mentioned is that Detachments won't be faction-locked. So there might be a biker-themed detachment which could be used to represent White Scars and Ravenwing equally. Similarly there won't be a unique Deathwing detachment but there might be some sort of First Company detachment which any Chapter can use to represent a Terminator-based army.

 

At lesat, that is my understanding.

Then I feel like we’re essentially on the same page. Curious why @ThePenitentOne is so frustrated about this situation when it doesn’t seem to be the case that other armies get subfactions.

[TheMawr]

4 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

Then I feel like we’re essentially on the same page. Curious why @ThePenitentOne is so frustrated about this situation when it doesn’t seem to be the case that other armies get subfactions.

 

He is referencing DA/BA/SW/BT getting detachments (or factions, but it sounds as if its detachments for now) and WE/TS/DG getting the seperate faction treatment I think

[Khornestar]

47 minutes ago, TheMawr said:

 

He is referencing DA/BA/SW/BT getting detachments (or factions, but it sounds as if its detachments for now) and WE/TS/DG getting the seperate faction treatment I think

Aah, gotcha.

[Rain]

I was sure divergent chapters would get their own books given their number of unique units, precedent from past editions, and the handling of Chaos Legions, but I suppose GW may be trying to homogenize them. Would really suck if so.

Divergent chapters actually have unique units, and have for years, unlike some armies’ subfactions which were always just short blurbs. The Kabal of the Obsidian Rose really like splinter weapons, but they don’t have unique weapons or units, and all Dark Eldar like splinter weapons. They don’t need to be a subfaction, but Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc. have more than enough to be supported as their own armies.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Rain

[ZeroWolf]

The unique SM chapters are getting their own index cards which I presume will have detachments included (as well as their own faction rule other wise they would have shoved all the SM stuff together). However that leaves Imperial Fists/White Scars/Salamanders etc stuck with generic SM rules...

[Tokugawa]

3 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

The unique SM chapters are getting their own index cards which I presume will have detachments included (as well as their own faction rule other wise they would have shoved all the SM stuff together). However that leaves Imperial Fists/White Scars/Salamanders etc stuck with generic SM rules...

For codex marine and nids, there won't be real "index stage". Their codex arrive very soon. If there are any detachment options which refer to style of IH/IF/WS etc, they must be printed in codex:space marines.

[BitsHammer]

26 minutes ago, Rain said:

I was sure divergent chapters would get their own books given their number of unique units, precedent from past editions, and the handling of Chaos Legions, but I suppose GW may be trying to homogenize them. Would really suck if so.

Divergent chapters actually have unique units, and have for years, unlike some armies’ subfactions which were always just short blurbs. The Kabal of the Obsidian Rose really like splinter weapons, but they don’t have unique weapons or units, and all Dark Eldar like splinter weapons. They don’t need to be a subfaction, but Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc. have more than enough to be supported as their own armies.

We know Dark Angels are getting their own codex, and we know that the divergent chapters get their own card sets, so yeah, things are going to be split up it looks like.

[Tokugawa]

30 minutes ago, Rain said:

I was sure divergent chapters would get their own books given their number of unique units, precedent from past editions, and the handling of Chaos Legions, but I suppose GW may be trying to homogenize them. Would really suck if so.

Divergent chapters actually have unique units, and have for years, unlike some armies’ subfactions which were always just short blurbs. The Kabal of the Obsidian Rose really like splinter weapons, but they don’t have unique weapons or units, and all Dark Eldar like splinter weapons. They don’t need to be a subfaction, but Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc. have more than enough to be supported as their own armies.

Blood angels has more players and sales than druks. Marines are air and water to GW sales. No one in GW dare to give BA the same treatment as a druks kabal.

[Rain]

21 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

We know Dark Angels are getting their own codex, and we know that the divergent chapters get their own card sets, so yeah, things are going to be split up it looks like.

Oh, right. Okay, good. That’s how I thought it was going to work, but you never know with GW.

[ThePenitentOne]

1 hour ago, Khornestar said:

Then I feel like we’re essentially on the same page. Curious why @ThePenitentOne is so frustrated about this situation when it doesn’t seem to be the case that other armies get subfactions.

 

What I am reacting to was the announcement that non-compliant Marines get a faction focus on Thurday, where it is likely to confirm that BA, SW, DA, DW and BT will be getting indexes, and therefore, faction rules which would replace OoM.

 

This a privilege afforded only to SM and CSM.

 

Other factions, if their sub-factions get any recognition at all, they will have to take it from detachment rules... Which will inevitably lead to people playing a sub-faction, but using the detachment whose rules would have been intended for a different sub-faction. This was what I meant by a Sam-Hain army using the aspect warrior detachment (which would have been meant for Biel-Tan) or the Iyanden Swordwind (which would have been designed to represent Sam-Hain). When sub-faction identities are represented by detachment rules, it means that other sub-factions get equal access.*

 

Space Marines that get their own index will not have to worry about other sub-factions stealing their schtick.

 

Now it's entirely possible that I'm wrong about that, because information IS sparse, and Warcom often makes mistakes. It is possible that on Thursday, we'll see a detachment for each of BA, DA, SW, DW, BT, rather than a confirmation that they are getting their own indexes. We may also get confirmation about whether or not they will eventually be receiving Codices.  

 

If you remember the big faction graphic (it appears on page 13 of this thread), it shows the snowflake Marines as being special. That graphic has been assumed to be who is getting an Index, who is getting a Codex, who is getting a Faction Focus and it's even been speculated that it might mean who is getting Index Cards, and that this might be different than who is getting an Index (ie. Knights and Chaos Knights seem to be different factions from Faction Focus, but not from the graphic).

 

*I am aware that some players believe that sub-faction specialization = flanderization. Obviously, I disagree, but I'm not going to get into that debate here as I believe it would take us too far off topic. I'm already courting that by using Eldar as examples, but I'm doing that in order to demonstrate the contrast between Marines and every other faction in the game (except CSM god-aligned legions)- hopefully that's enough on topic that the mods don't feel the need to flag or warn me- I'm not out to make more work for them.

[WrathOfTheLion]

@ThePenitentOne Why would we need to confirm that or not? They've already shown that Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc, won't just be their own Index, but their own Codex again by virtue of Codex: Dark Angels being on the roadmap.

[Gederas]

39 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

 

What I am reacting to was the announcement that non-compliant Marines get a faction focus on Thurday, where it is likely to confirm that BA, SW, DA, DW and BT will be getting indexes, and therefore, faction rules which would replace OoM.

 

This a privilege afforded only to SM and CSM.

Because these aren't subfactions. The Marines ones were and are separate codices. When in all of 40k's history has the Order of Our Martyred Lady, Hive Fleet Behemoth or the Bad Moonz ever had their own unique codex from the main faction's codex? Not an index, not a White Dwarf article. A full book.

 

They didn't. Only in 9e have the Space Marines separate codices been folded back into the main Codex: Space Marines. And they're split back again in 10e. Either as full codices or variants on the base codex.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Gederas
Seemed a bit too aggro the first time, whoops

[Tokugawa]

In very ancient time(~2000?) Catachans once have a rulebook, IIRC. There weren't clear faction/subfaction concept or definitions at that time though.

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

In very ancient time(~2000?) Catachans once have a rulebook, IIRC. There weren't clear faction/subfaction concept or definitions at that time though.

It was a supplement that required the core IG codex to use. Of course back then divergent chapters also had supplements and not full books. 

[Noserenda]

Subfactions had their own army lists as far back as 1st ed, like, they predate codexes as a concept :D

 

It would suck for the game to lose subfactions just because they don't definitively sell well outside of space marines but we still don't know how the codexes will handle them

 

 

 

[BitsHammer]

When it comes to proper subfactions what little info we have says they are done via detachments (likely with enhancements, stratagems and the detachment rule for flavor) but what that looks like remains to be seen.

 

In all likelihood we won't know until the codexes start dropping.

[spessmarine]

3 hours ago, TheMawr said:

There really isnt a lot of mystery or contradiction to what they said before (imho at least)..

DA/BA/SW/BT dont get a faction focus because they are Spacemarine faction that already got a focus ( for now, personally I think they will switch to being their own factions with the codex.)

Within that faction focus they said they will get Detachments to represent their uniqueness.. and players can choose to use those or the Gladius one.

...

 

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I was sure divergent chapters would get their own books given their number of unique units, precedent from past editions, and the handling of Chaos Legions, but I suppose GW may be trying to homogenize them. Would really suck if so.

Divergent chapters actually have unique units, and have for years, unlike some armies’ subfactions which were always just short blurbs. The Kabal of the Obsidian Rose really like splinter weapons, but they don’t have unique weapons or units, and all Dark Eldar like splinter weapons. They don’t need to be a subfaction, but Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc. have more than enough to be supported as their own armies.

 

We know chapters like DA get their own codex because GW has announced it.
I am expecting chapters with their own book to play a bit more differently, if all that defines BA is an optional single detachment plus a few sheets, then does it really merit its own book?

But if BA have an ability that replaces OoM, and their own say 6 detachments as well then we've got a meatier book. Add the datasheets needing to override using OoM and unique sheets too and we've got something that works as a standalone book.

[Rain]

Thinking about it, the detachment system also makes sense in context of warband lore in the most recent World Eaters book.
 

It described World Eaters obsessed with running their enemies over with vehicles, and even a warband of stealthy World Eaters proficient in ranged warfare, led by a former Recon Legionnaire sniper that finds his victims with demonic echolocation. But the rules as they stand only really reflect the classic Berzerker horde, making these rules lore blurbs feel disjointed from what the army can actually do on the tabletop. Future detachments may address this.

[TheMawr]

12 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

 

 

We know chapters like DA get their own codex because GW has announced it.
I am expecting chapters with their own book to play a bit more differently, if all that defines BA is an optional single detachment plus a few sheets, then does it really merit its own book?

But if BA have an ability that replaces OoM, and their own say 6 detachments as well then we've got a meatier book. Add the datasheets needing to override using OoM and unique sheets too and we've got something that works as a standalone book.

 

Thats what Im saying, spacemarine faction (and thus OoM) with distinct detachment now in the index (as they explicitely keep saying).. to keep things simple for the index. Only distinct cards for their distinct units, and they will be temporarily for the index only, the other 90 datasheets is faction spacemarine.

A simple thing to replace OoM wont work because its also specifically integrated into datasheet abilities... it would have to adress all of those as well.

 

But they'll be their own faction when codex drops for the reasons you mention (codexes replace index, they dont necessarily copy them) with their own detachments and a complete replacement of cards from the index. (though Im not sure it will be all 90 of them every time... I could see hounds of morkai replacing all distinct phobos units into one unit choice with the options for spacewolves for example.)

 

I dont think Index card set = Index faction = Codex faction (though mostly it works out like that.) In fact we already know for sure it isnt true for one Index card pack.

[spessmarine]

1 hour ago, TheMawr said:

 

Thats what Im saying, spacemarine faction (and thus OoM) with distinct detachment now in the index (as they explicitely keep saying).. to keep things simple for the index. Only distinct cards for their distinct units, and they will be temporarily for the index only, the other 90 datasheets is faction spacemarine.

A simple thing to replace OoM wont work because its also specifically integrated into datasheet abilities... it would have to adress all of those as well.

 

But they'll be their own faction when codex drops for the reasons you mention (codexes replace index, they dont necessarily copy them) with their own detachments and a complete replacement of cards from the index. (though Im not sure it will be all 90 of them every time... I could see hounds of morkai replacing all distinct phobos units into one unit choice with the options for spacewolves for example.)

 

I dont think Index card set = Index faction = Codex faction (though mostly it works out like that.) In fact we already know for sure it isnt true for one Index card pack.

 

Yes, that definitely makes a lot of sense. There is no reason to suspect the index will be that representative of the codex indeed.

 

Though, given the wait some factions will have until their book, I hope the index gives them enough to play with. Going through the index cycle again is a less than enjoyable experience if you don't get your book quick like standard space marines. Some people are going to have to run indexhammer until well into 2025 or so.

[ZeroWolf]

6 hours ago, TheMawr said:

 

Thats what Im saying, spacemarine faction (and thus OoM) with distinct detachment now in the index (as they explicitely keep saying).. to keep things simple for the index. Only distinct cards for their distinct units, and they will be temporarily for the index only, the other 90 datasheets is faction spacemarine.

A simple thing to replace OoM wont work because its also specifically integrated into datasheet abilities... it would have to adress all of those as well.

 

But they'll be their own faction when codex drops for the reasons you mention (codexes replace index, they dont necessarily copy them) with their own detachments and a complete replacement of cards from the index. (though Im not sure it will be all 90 of them every time... I could see hounds of morkai replacing all distinct phobos units into one unit choice with the options for spacewolves for example.)

 

I dont think Index card set = Index faction = Codex faction (though mostly it works out like that.) In fact we already know for sure it isnt true for one Index card pack.

You mean the Knights one? Though at least there is some sense with that one to bring it to the same level as some of the other factions.

 

Speaking of subfactions, I think making the army wide rule genericish for Eldar/SoB etc, as it reflects them as a whole. There's no reason as to why Ulthwé and Sain Hain couldn’t access fate dice afterall, their specialisation comes from how they set themselves up, so why can't detachments be used to reflect that? Maybe it'll even let them play with their army rule differently than the others...

 

By the by, is everyone planning to get all the index rules at launch just to see what's what like I'm planning on doing? I mean might as well grab them all while they're free!