Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Space Marines

[Lemondish]

55 minutes ago, Lexington said:

10th has some nice moves thus far, but I’m not liking now they’re sneaking all the old special rules complexity of 9th Ed Codexes in through the back door of a multi-layer army building system, all while claiming how “streamlined” it’s going to be because the top layer of the system isn’t as singularly complex.

The difference of course is that there isn't a vector where these rules end up stacking on top of each other. You don't get faction rules, followed by sub-faction rules, followed by supplement rules, followed by army renown or specialist detchments or whatever such nonsense was added previously.

 

It's just one faction benefit, and what appears to be one detachment benefit. The former doesn't change, the latter can be replaced.

 

And since all the enhancement options are tied to the detachment, we're then further limited in ways that ensure fewer janky super combos.

[Mogger351]

14 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Yeah, I'm not getting the impression that they dialed back on the systems/layers at all.

Previously common to all marine armies:
Shock assault
And they shall know no fear
Bolter discipline
Combat doctrines 

Chapter trait - maybe 2 pick from a list, or one of the pre-defined chapters

Chapter super buff - only kicks in for one particular doctrine

Now common to all marine armies:
Oath of moment

A detachment buff (combat doctrines for example)

 

That's at the absolute most basic level and ignores stacking character buffs via overlapping auras (mostly gone), over 30 faction + 6 generic stratagems (down to 6 + 11 generic), loads of paid for warlord and relic combos (often in 2 tiers no less) now merely a max of 3 enhancements (no stacking). All in an army where you had to spend resources that unlocked said combos to get extra units, whereas now you just pick a HQ and whatever.
 

How can you not see there's fewer moving parts here?

Edited May 2, 2023 by Mogger351

[ZeroWolf]

15 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Your subfaction has exactly as much character as it did before, its your unit choices and modelling that count, not +1 s on the charge.

Interesting that Guiliman cant ride in a land raider though.

As much as it might be because of lore reasons, it might also be because of balance reasons. Seeing a land raider barrel up the table, stop at your best unit and disgorge an assaulting primarch won't give warm fuzzy feelings.

This is assuming of course that he can use both weapons as listed.

[Subtleknife]

2 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

As much as it might be because of lore reasons, it might also be because of balance reasons. Seeing a land raider barrel up the table, stop at your best unit and disgorge an assaulting primarch won't give warm fuzzy feelings.

This is assuming of course that he can use both weapons as listed.

It would be epic though

[ZeroWolf]

Just now, Subtleknife said:

It would be epic though

It sure would 

[Captain Idaho]

In 9th, which is different to 10th of course, the ability to fallback and still shoot was nice as a faction ability but incredibly situational. For a one off ability it is just very niche. The other Doctrines are similar though might help you chase down Tau players.

 

In 10th those Doctrines could be really good, but without further context I'm not excited about keeping track of them at all.

 

Oddly enough, I'd likely get more out of them with my casual opponents as they take much more balanced armies anyway, whereas tournament games might be totally different.

[Ammonius]

6 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Seeing a land raider barrel up the table, stop at your best unit and disgorge an assaulting primarch won't give warm fuzzy feelings.

Imagine the Lion popping out of a shrubbery! :)

[Frogian]

The space marine codex never felt like it had loads of layers, and they're already dialling back from individual chapter rules, including the pick your own ones. 

 

If other factions only get similar amounts (one faction rule, one detachment rule) then that will be a massive dialling back compared to grudge tokens and miracle dice

 

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Previously common to all marine armies:
Shock assault
And they shall know no fear
Bolter discipline
Combat doctrines 

Chapter trait - maybe 2 pick from a list, or one of the pre-defined chapters

Chapter super buff - only kicks in for one particular doctrine

Now common to all marine armies:
Oath of moment

A detachment buff (combat doctrines for example)

 

That's at the absolute most basic level and ignores stacking character buffs via overlapping auras (mostly gone), over 30 faction + 6 generic stratagems (down to 6 + 11 generic), loads of paid for warlord and relic combos (often in 2 tiers no less) now merely a max of 3 enhancements (no stacking). All in an army where you had to spend resources that unlocked said combos to get extra units, whereas now you just pick a HQ and whatever.
 

How can you not see there's fewer moving parts here?

 

Mostly because they kept in Strats, and I wanted them fired into the sun. ;)

 

We still have Auras, look at Rob. Its up to GW to keep themselves in check, and they have a history of only being able to restrain themselves when it comes to keeping Chaos boring.

We still have Faction -> Detachment/Formation levels of rules, instead of just at the Faction level.

We are still seeing Rerolls, unless again GW keeps themselves in check.

Units are going to have more rules.

We will still have Warlord/Relics, which is fine.

 

Mostly, I wanted Strats gone and while they are starting with a noble goal, I dont trust GW to keep themselves from adding more, and we already have all the layers, if not the depth to each layer, as you have described.

[zero888]

GW: Re-rolls are now rare!

 

Also GW: Don't worry, the most popular faction only gets it on ONE unit a turn!!

 

Also also GW: The most popular subfaction primarch allows a SECOND full Re-roll if you kill the first one, but re-rolls are now rare!!!

[Kallas]

7 minutes ago, Ammonius said:

Imagine the Lion popping out of a shrubbery! :)

 

Behold!

Spoiler

 

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

Wonder if there will be a day 1 detachment for Blood Angels. I will be quite annoyed if there isn't going to be something to depict the red thirst on the table top for at least a year. 

[Doobles57]

4 minutes ago, zero888 said:

GW: Re-rolls are now rare!

 

Also GW: Don't worry, the most popular faction only gets it on ONE unit a turn!!

 

Also also GW: The most popular subfaction primarch allows a SECOND full Re-roll if you kill the first one, but re-rolls are now rare!!!

While I get where you're coming from, we currently have everyone near Guilliman re-rolling something against everyone, everyone near a Chapter Master re-rolling something against everything, everyone around a captain/lieutenant re-rolling something against everything, and via a Strat everyone around a dreadnought re-rolling something against everything etc. And other factions can have re-rolls left and right too. 

[Frogian]

Yes, there is a lot of 'GW said they were going to reduce x but here we can see they are still doing x! (ignore that we've clearly seen that they have indeed reduced x)'

[Lemondish]

11 minutes ago, zero888 said:

GW: Re-rolls are now rare!

 

Also GW: Don't worry, the most popular faction only gets it on ONE unit a turn!!

 

Also also GW: The most popular subfaction primarch allows a SECOND full Re-roll if you kill the first one, but re-rolls are now rare!!!

Compared to 9th edition, where the most popular subfaction Primarch bestows re-rolls to everything under his gaze against everything on the table.

 

Are we really going to go through with this again? This ridiculous joke, not only being plain wrong, is just getting old now...

[sandrorect]

1 hour ago, Lexington said:

I don’t think there’s a lot of relationship between army/force-wide special rules and the ability to create more models.

 

10th has some nice moves thus far, but I’m not liking now they’re sneaking all the old special rules complexity of 9th Ed Codexes in through the back door of a multi-layer army building system, all while claiming how “streamlined” it’s going to be because the top layer of the system isn’t as singularly complex.

 

My previus post was more generic anwer.

 

If you have more than 40 units per army (o 100 as the space marines), you need to differentiate the units or the players will say "ehh these two units are the same, why i need to buy the new ones?" and de designers can put the rules as unit rule, facction rule o stratagems rules.

 

And the game is more streamlined now, because we will used a lot less rules when will played a game. 

 

But the bloat of rules is no disappearing, in fact the game will have even more rules now, because the detachments permit to GW make more rules without put these rules into the game. You only need to think that if the future space marine codex have 10 detachments, these detachments will have 1 rules, 4 enhances and 6 stratagems, so 10, 40 and 60 in total (more than now)

 

However: you don´t need to know all these rules, because when you buy the next codex, you only need to choose the detachment with the rules than will be better as you want to play and ignore the rest. You can even rip off the pages with other detachment into the recycle bin.

 

That is the most important thing of the detachment: the game will be more compartmentalized so we don´t need to learn so much rules to play the game but GW can make more rules so they can create more units for us to buy.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by sandrorect

[Emperor Ming]

Does Gman get to attack with both those melee weapons

 

Rather crazy if yes

 

Add on reroll hits and wounds as well from oath

 

 

[Lemondish]

1 minute ago, Emperor Ming said:

Does Gman get to attack with both those melee weapons

 

Rather crazy if yes

 

Add on reroll hits and wounds as well from oath

 

 

Yeah, that's a pretty big unknown. Right now you can split your attacks across the two options, but that doesn't fit with this new data card design. For what it's worth, in Age of Sigmar, you must attack with all the weapons you have, so if they emulate that, then he would get 21 crazy attacks.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Lemondish

[redmapa]

7 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

Wonder if there will be a day 1 detachment for Blood Angels. I will be quite annoyed if there isn't going to be something to depict the red thirst on the table top for at least a year. 

 

Unless they've changed it GW said all SM would be using this Detachment in the Index. I personally like, it adds a lot of mobility to an army and that helps both gunline and Assault marines, it's also limited to 3 turns so it's not all game like current doctrines but they seem impacting game play wise. If all detachments are like this then I'm satisfied with this new subfaction system.

[Frogian]

6 minutes ago, sandrorect said:

However: you don´t need to know all these rules, because when you buy the next codex, you only need to choose the detachment with the rules than will be better as you want to play and ignore the rest. You can even rip off the pages with other detachment into the recycle bin.

 

That is the most important thing of the detachment: the game will be more compartmentalized so we don´t need to learn so much rules to play the game but GW can make more rules so they can create more units for us to buy.

 

one big thing here is if its just one detachment+ one sub faction + some stratagems is how easy it is to go over your opponents at the beginning of the game - as opposed to 'explain to me how this entire other rule set works'

[Lemondish]

6 minutes ago, redmapa said:

 

Unless they've changed it GW said all SM would be using this Detachment in the Index. I personally like, it adds a lot of mobility to an army and that helps both gunline and Assault marines, it's also limited to 3 turns so it's not all game like current doctrines but they seem impacting game play wise. If all detachments are like this then I'm satisfied with this new subfaction system.

 

During the Warhammer Fest preview, they did show a screenshot of all of the coming index factions cards, so I imagine that each of those will get their own detachment. Of course, being Space Marines, Blood Angels (and the like) are likely to be able to choose either of these options if they so desire.

 

Of course, if these are all considered separate factions, we'll see soon enough once the faction preview train reaches their stop.

 

Edit to add:

Because I'm sure many will miss this:

*Several other famously less conventional Chapters – including the likes of the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels – will get their own unique Detachment rules. You’ll be able to choose which ones to use as you compose your army list.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Lemondish

[sandrorect]

4 minutes ago, redmapa said:

 

Unless they've changed it GW said all SM would be using this Detachment in the Index. I personally like, it adds a lot of mobility to an army and that helps both gunline and Assault marines, it's also limited to 3 turns so it's not all game like current doctrines but they seem impacting game play wise. If all detachments are like this then I'm satisfied with this new subfaction system.

 

Blood angels will have their own index and codex now so (per rules) they aren´t space marines anymore, Blood angels are Blood angels so they will may don´t have Otah of omen or Gladuis strike force

[sandrorect]

5 minutes ago, Frogian said:

one big thing here is if its just one detachment+ one sub faction + some stratagems is how easy it is to go over your opponents at the beginning of the game - as opposed to 'explain to me how this entire other rule set works'

 

There is no subfaction anymore. Only 1 detachmet rule, 4 enhances (or more exactly 3 of 4) and 6 stratagems.

[Mr. Oddity]

Land raiders are looking excellent, and I can't wait to see them taken off of display shelves in larger numbers! The setup with the lascannons and heavy bolters seems to confirm the design philosophy hinted at with the Ballistus - dual-barreled "primary" weapons (the Ballistus lascannons, the Godhammer lascannons) maintain their twin shots since those are meant as the main damage dealing mechanic of the unit, while dual-barreled "secondary" or support weapons (Ballistus chest bolters, twin heavy bolter) receive twin-linked rule as a supplementary mechanic. I feel like this is a good decision that balances the main damage output against reducing overall lethality. Melta vs las as primary anti-armor will be interesting in how it develops, although it does seem so far like the needle is swinging towards heavier las weapons.

 

Guilliman seems rather imposing both combat-wise and support-wise. Being able to elect a second Oath of Moment target or double up on stratagems is a pretty big deal, so I'm glad it's a "pick one" type of benefit. That potential combat profile is also massive if both weapons are usable in the same activation.

 

Doctrines seem like a solid enough sidegrade to me in this form. AP reduction is a good thing in my opinion, and having the doctrines based on maneuver warfare is both fluffy given how Astartes usually deploy and has the potential to reinforce 10th being heavily in favor of individual unit tactics rather than castling. Bridger from TT has already called this edition as a mechanized one, but I think it's fair to say it will be more of a mobility one.

 

On the topic of rerolls: even if the same number of reroll sources are available, having them limited in their scope of application is an improvement IMO. I agree with @Doobles88, @Lemondish, and others that having those benefits locked to a singular unit (target or receiving) is an improvement over the current aura stacking system we have now.

[Lemondish]

11 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

GW: We have scaled back damage

 

Also GW: 

 

I need to see the points to be convinced but this has deflated me a little. 

Big, heavy tank weapon, designed to kill other tank.