Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Space Marines

[Tokugawa]

57 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

GW: We have scaled back damage

 

Also GW: 

 

I need to see the points to be convinced but this has deflated me a little. 

It can 3+ to wound any vehicle, but almost cannot 2+ to wound any tank. So the new S16 is roughly equal to old S10. D6+4 is a big improvement though.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

10 minutes ago, sandrorect said:

 

Since 5th codex, so more than 15 years ago

I genuinely didn't know. Tbh, I haven't used my standard Land Raider since 3rd. Crusaders are right there, and have the Melta in the box.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So another possibly skewed example as it's only really vehicles, but heavy is still being applied to weapons that hit on 3s. The design style really seems to it being a reward to staying still instead of penalizing movement, and that's extra compounded by devastator doctrine where you can advance and shoot on 3s with everything.

 

@Sword Brother Adelard land raiders were pretty good in 5th, but had to watch out for melta guns or other really high strength weapons. They still really dumped terminators or veterans into the opponent with a move+disembark+assault. 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think my ignorance of Land Raider rules may also be down to how garbage they've been for too long. I haven't even looked at them.

 

Perhaps that might change now? It the price is right...

[CCE1981]

My big question is: what do Chaplains do in 10th?  Litanies are going to be baked into the unit buffs, but what will they do?  I am pretty sure re-roll to hit in combat will still be there, it’s been there since 3rd to my knowledge.  Maybe a lot of their litanies will get combined.

 

I like Chaplains, it was a pity they lost some flavor from 8th Chapter specific Litanies.  That one is right up there with Salamanders losing poor Chaplain Xavier.

[redmapa]

If the points are right then we are absolutely going back to 5th ed and what @SkimaskMohawk referred to, LR not having a movement penalty means you will need to kill them before they move+Assault their cargo and thats all you wil want them to do, their guns are cherry on top. So if they can either survive a turn or be cheap enough  that bringing two for redundancy isn't 30%+ of your list the LRs are definitely making a comeback.

[Lemondish]

2 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

My big question is: what do Chaplains do in 10th?  Litanies are going to be baked into the unit buffs, but what will they do?

Assuming they aren't Lone Operatives, I suspect you're right that they'll just add their effects onto the unit they lead.

 

Though I imagine the Chaplain on Bike will likely be a lone operative as it would be lame to only be able to take him if you also bring Outriders lol

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Yeah, I'm not getting the impression that they dialed back on the systems/layers at all.

 

Just using your comment as a jumping off point, as it reminded me of an interview Robin Cruddace did a while back. He referred to the rule of 7 (humans can track/recall/work-with 7 things), and how it informed his design of 9th edition. I remember when I watched that interview what struck me was how he didn't apply it correctly. That at any given moment, the layers almost always meant that more than 7 things were involved. It seems to me that 10th edition is more like a big organization with better "hyperlinking" so at any moment there's 7 things to track, but with clear indicators to where to move into a subsystem, stop tracking the original 7, and start tracking new stuff.

 

3 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Yeah but in my Terminator, Dreadnought and Tactical squad army, I might not need to move my heavy weapons at all. Or against Tau I might not need to retreat from melee.

 

In fact, even against armies that those abilities are useful against, the whole army is going to be affected by the rule when only 1 or 2 units will need to utilise them.

 

I dunno, seems like keeping track of a special rule for little benefit most of the time.

 

I know it's not helpful at Index launch when there's only the one Detachment, but I'm hoping that all the Factions will have enough flavors of Detachments - particularly how they work mechanically - for all sorts of players to have one they'd enjoy using.

[Scribe]

11 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 

Just using your comment as a jumping off point, as it reminded me of an interview Robin Cruddace did a while back. He referred to the rule of 7 (humans can track/recall/work-with 7 things), and how it informed his design of 9th edition. I remember when I watched that interview what struck me was how he didn't apply it correctly. That at any given moment, the layers almost always meant that more than 7 things were involved. It seems to me that 10th edition is more like a big organization with better "hyperlinking" so at any moment there's 7 things to track, but with clear indicators to where to move into a subsystem, stop tracking the original 7, and start tracking new stuff.

 

Yeah. I'm not arguing that the complexity of each layer is not diminished. At this early index stage it clearly will be.

 

To say that the layers are gone however, doesnt seem to sync with the reality of what has been presented.

[siegfriedfr]

Very disappointed to see that rule bloat is still here, and only stratagems bloat will truly be gone.

 

They just refuse to "Apocalypse" the ruleset more.

Edited May 2, 2023 by siegfriedfr

[Sete]

Personally I like the detachments, and im glad to see so many strats gone. If I have a detachment with all the rules and attached strat on the same page, makes it easier to remember.  I think I'm gonna enjoy 10th.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Sete

[Indy Techwisp]

3 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

I'm not seeing much rule bloat this time around to be honest especially if they stick to the 2 page spread. 

 

The big bloat was stacking rules which seems to be calmed down; you have your faction rule (oath of moment) and your detachment ability, both seem pretty simple and not confusing. It's not like oath of moment is hard to remember; just pick an enemy unit every command phase and done.

 

and other nonsense has all been put into the 2 page spread.

 

Otherwise i'm confused and I need to ask what is the bloat we speak of? What do we define the bloat as?

 

It's even simpler than that.

 

Faction rule is unchangeable (so Space Marines have Oath of Moment, but DA will have something else as they have their own index).

Detatchment picks your strats and ability.

Relics, warlord traits, etc. are all now one thing, of which you have 1.

Psyker powers are baked into the sheet, so no huge list of spells.

 

All this goes on 2 pages so no need for multiple sheets of rules and multiple books.

 

It really can't get much more simple than that.

[Khornestar]

2 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

My big question is: what do Chaplains do in 10th?  Litanies are going to be baked into the unit buffs, but what will they do?  I am pretty sure re-roll to hit in combat will still be there, it’s been there since 3rd to my knowledge.  Maybe a lot of their litanies will get combined.

 

I like Chaplains, it was a pity they lost some flavor from 8th Chapter specific Litanies.  That one is right up there with Salamanders losing poor Chaplain Xavier.

Have they stated auras are totally gone? I almost remember seeing that. If not, I could see chaplains being a category (PRIEST?) that could still use them in some fashion, or maybe target u it’s with buffs that they themselves aren’t joined to?

 

2 hours ago, Lemondish said:

Assuming they aren't Lone Operatives, I suspect you're right that they'll just add their effects onto the unit they lead.

 

Though I imagine the Chaplain on Bike will likely be a lone operative as it would be lame to only be able to take him if you also bring Outriders lol

 

Here I wonder if there will ever be granularity. They have both the independent operative rule and a short list of units they can join?

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, siegfriedfr said:

Very disappointed to see that rule bloat is still here, and only stratagems bloat will truly be gone.

 

They just refuse to "Apocalypse" the ruleset more.

For just Marines, going from having 4 faction abilities and 2 subfaction ones to just one faction ability and one detachment ability feels like the exact opposite of rule bloat. Not to mention the "one in, one out" concept reducing moments of stacking actual rules. But maybe it's different for other factions? What faction did you have in mind when it said that?

 

I'm personally a huge fan of going back to universal rules everybody knows and understands. I mean, we were already really close to that unofficially already

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Khornestar said:

Have they stated auras are totally gone? I almost remember seeing that. If not, I could see chaplains being a category (PRIEST?) that could still use them in some fashion, or maybe target u it’s with buffs that they themselves aren’t joined to?

 

Guilliman has an Aura on his sheet, so I guess they're just far rarer now.

[Lemondish]

2 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

Have they stated auras are totally gone?

 

They have not, and we've seen one example of them thus far (and I thought there was a second but I can't find it).

 

5 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

They have both the independent operative rule and a short list of units they can join?

 

Suppose that could happen too, though most of what we've seen is that Leaders don't get Lone Operative by default.

[ZeroWolf]

Seen it else where but we're getting a faction focus every day it seems (time will tell if that holds). If they cover each index entry then we'll see what BA, SW, BT, DA etc get.

[jaxom]

25 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

I'm not seeing much rule bloat this time around to be honest especially if they stick to the 2 page spread. 

 

The big bloat was stacking rules which seems to be calmed down; you have your faction rule (oath of moment) and your detachment ability, both seem pretty simple and not confusing. It's not like oath of moment is hard to remember; just pick an enemy unit every command phase and done.

 

Relics, warlord traits and other nonsense has all been put into the 2 page spread.

 

Otherwise i'm confused and I need to ask what is the bloat we speak of? What do we define the bloat as?

 

Just looking at what we know so far from WarCom articles, a unit of Bladeguard Veterants could be under the effect of:

1. Oath of the Moment (against target unit)
2. Combat Doctrine (ex: Advance and Charge)
3. Lieutenant attached to the unit giving them Tactical Precision (Lethal Hits) and Target Priority (Shoot and Charge on a turn when it Fell Back)
4. Captain attached to the unit giving them Something
5. A strategem
6. Guilliman using his Primarch of the XIII aura

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 

Just looking at what we know so far from WarCom articles, a unit of Bladeguard Veterants could be under the effect of:

1. Oath of the Moment (against target unit)
2. Combat Doctrine (ex: Advance and Charge)
3. Lieutenant attached to the unit giving them Tactical Precision (Lethal Hits) and Target Priority (Shoot and Charge on a turn when it Fell Back)
4. Captain attached to the unit giving them Something
5. A strategem
6. Guilliman using his Primarch of the XIII aura

 

There you have it, and this is index level.

[BluejayJunior]

4 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 

Just looking at what we know so far from WarCom articles, a unit of Bladeguard Veterants could be under the effect of:

1. Oath of the Moment (against target unit)
2. Combat Doctrine (ex: Advance and Charge)
3. Lieutenant attached to the unit giving them Tactical Precision (Lethal Hits) and Target Priority (Shoot and Charge on a turn when it Fell Back)
4. Captain attached to the unit giving them Something
5. A strategem
6. Guilliman using his Primarch of the XIII aura

You're not wrong. But that's also putting basically everything you have into a single unit. Dedicating three characters (one of them a Primarch) to that unit means that others are not getting any bonuses outside of OoM and Doctrine. And since we have so little about stratagems so far, it's hard to say what effect they will have. Most of the ones we've seen so far have been reactive. And with so few (11 Core + 6 Detachment), it's unlikely you'll be piling up multiple ones on a single unit. So not as much stacking or potential stacking of rules (especially stratagems) as in 9th. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Is that any different from prior to 8E? You could have your faction rules, place how many characters to add abilities to the unit, etc.?

 

For example, in 30k, I could have base SM rules, the Legion rules, the rules for the Rite of War, the rules for <x> number of characters joining them (more than just two and a possible aura), the rules for a reaction being used, etc.

Frankly that we enumerate the two characters that can join the unit and only get six (any other character besides LT/Captain joins them, and this drops down to five) isn't too shabby.

 

20 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

There you have it, and this is index level.

Note that you are being rhetorical here as well, as the index will have a full fledged detachment/two-page spread. So index level and codex level should be mostly equivalent.

Edited May 2, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Indy Techwisp]

9 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 

Just looking at what we know so far from WarCom articles, a unit of Bladeguard Veterants could be under the effect of:

1. Oath of the Moment (against target unit)
2. Combat Doctrine (ex: Advance and Charge)
3. Lieutenant attached to the unit giving them Tactical Precision (Lethal Hits) and Target Priority (Shoot and Charge on a turn when it Fell Back)
4. Captain attached to the unit giving them Something
5. A strategem
6. Guilliman using his Primarch of the XIII aura

 

Can we be sure that Bladeguards could be under all these effects?
Your Lieutenant & your Captain are only providing buffs to one unit, as per the joining units rule.

Combat Docs are once per game, so they're not always active.

Guilliman being an "Epic Hero" (or whatever the trait is called) means you'd need to pick between him and any other characters with the trait, so you can't count on adding him + the Aura is one of 3 things and might not be active.

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

19 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 

Just looking at what we know so far from WarCom articles, a unit of Bladeguard Veterants could be under the effect of:

1. Oath of the Moment (against target unit)
2. Combat Doctrine (ex: Advance and Charge)
3. Lieutenant attached to the unit giving them Tactical Precision (Lethal Hits) and Target Priority (Shoot and Charge on a turn when it Fell Back)
4. Captain attached to the unit giving them Something
5. A strategem
6. Guilliman using his Primarch of the XIII aura

Back in 4th edition (last time I played before 9th, and alongside 5th one of the commonly referenced “best” editions), a Captain’s command squad could benefit from the following effects (and this is just off the top of my head): 

 

1. The basic Space Marines rules (ATSKNF; were there any others?). 

2. The Captain’s leadership buff. 

3. You could attach a basic-level Chaplain or Librarian for extra character buffs (hit rerolls on the charge from the Chaplain; a few different psychic power options from the Librarian). 
4. The squad’s Apothecary’s buff. 
5. The Squad’s Ancient’s buff (including some options for relic banners). 
6. If you really wanted to get froggy, you had the option to add Furious Charge or another buff or two (Tank Hunters? Something else?). 
7. The whole unit could take Terminator Honors. 
 

It’s definitely possible that I’m missing other buff or upgrade options, because the 4e Marines codex was really flexible. But, just like a few other posters have pointed out, this is pretty much limited to one unit. Stacking like this is also going to be heavily limited to just a few units in 10e, based on what GW has previewed so far. 
 

Compared to 8e and 9e, and especially compared to the “simpler” days of older editions, I’m really not seeing the issues with stacking here. This is about the level of input and buff-selection/stacking GW has generally allowed. 9e took it to extremes in some cases, especially with overlapping auras and the large numbers of stratagems. 
 

Personally, I see nothing but good changes to Marines here so far. And if anything, I’m getting real 4e feelings of happiness from what you could to do a unit of Bladeguard acting as a command squad in 10e. 

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, Brother Captain Vakarian said:

Back in 4th edition (last time I played before 9th, and alongside 5th one of the commonly referenced “best” editions), a Captain’s command squad could benefit from the following effects (and this is just off the top of my head): 

 

1. The basic Space Marines rules (ATSKNF; were there any others?). 

2. The Captain’s leadership buff. 

3. You could attach a basic-level Chaplain or Librarian for extra character buffs (hit rerolls on the charge from the Chaplain; a few different psychic power options from the Librarian). 
4. The squad’s Apothecary’s buff. 
5. The Squad’s Ancient’s buff (including some options for relic banners). 
6. If you really wanted to get froggy, you had the option to add Furious Charge or another buff or two (Tank Hunters? Something else?). 
7. The whole unit could take Terminator Honors. 
 

It’s definitely possible that I’m missing other buff or upgrade options, because the 4e Marines codex was really flexible. But, just like a few other posters have pointed out, this is pretty much limited to one unit. Stacking like this is also going to be heavily limited to just a few units in 10e, based on what GW has previewed so far. 
 

Compared to 8e and 9e, and especially compared to the “simpler” days of older editions, I’m really not seeing the issues with stacking here. This is about the level of input and buff-selection/stacking GW has generally allowed. 9e took it to extremes in some cases, especially with overlapping auras and the large numbers of stratagems. 
 

Personally, I see nothing but good changes to Marines here so far. And if anything, I’m getting real 4e feelings of happiness from what you could to do a unit of Bladeguard acting as a command squad in 10e. 

 

Also consider that making a "Deathball" unit just invites getting it Oath of Moment'd off the board asap (or whatever focusfire strat/ability/T'au gunline your army has).

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

 

2 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Also consider that making a "Deathball" unit just invites getting it Oath of Moment'd off the board asap (or whatever focusfire strat/ability/T'au gunline your army has).

This was the major reason I think you rarely if ever saw people doing this in 4e (at least, I didn’t)—waaay too many eggs in one basket. Cool concept, but too many toys in one place that are too easy to either kill or ignore. 
 

That seems like it will be just as true in 10e.