Wh40k 10th Edition 10th Edition CSM changes. The players thread!

[Cryptix]

4 hours ago, danodan123 said:

 

Ah yes, I didnt even see they had that on the datasheets anyway! 

 

Many thanks, I was just trying to see if there was any synergy between the two factions... Maybe wishful thinking?!

I want to believe that Daemonkin are going to be battleshock oriented to have synergy with daemons. Imagine if:

- Daemon Princes were differentiated from Chaos Lords by switching their aura to one that forces enemies to reroll successful battleshock and leadership tests. 

- Princes and Possessed kept their Fearsome -1 to enemy Battleshock Aura

- Warptalons' Warpflames forced Battleshock whenever they charged. 

I really miss the DAEMON keyword synergy from the 8th edition days, it'd be nice rir something similar to return 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

We've seen a fair few other Faction Focus articles now.  Any thoughts now that we have a wider comparison than just Dark Pact vs Oaths?

[Kaiju Soze]

Still don't like Dark Pacts. Shouldn't have to worry about being punished for using the faction rule.

[WrathOfTheLion]

28 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

We've seen a fair few other Faction Focus articles now.  Any thoughts now that we have a wider comparison than just Dark Pact vs Oaths?

I think Dark Pact is flexible, but I can't help but think other army rules are better.

 

It's really going to depend on what all can interact with it. We're missing a pretty decent piece of the puzzle without knowing what marks, etc. do.

Edited May 25, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[TrawlingCleaner]

Part of me suspects that Marks go back to only confering a Keyword (to use strats on) and unlocking the Mark's Icon. I don't think the Marks themselves will give additional rules like they do in 9th. We've seen the Berzerker and Rubric Icons, whilst the Rubric one is applicable to us the Berzerker one definitely isn't. Perhaps we'll get totally seperate ones.

 

On Dark Pact, I think it's a good ability but not 100% sure the MW bit was needed. I'd feel a lot better about it if it was purely a Battleshock test with no damage taken if failed. Having said that, we haven't seen the rest of the army and there's likely to be some nutty combos in there (Abby, 10 Combi Bolters and Sustained Hits come to mind...)

Sustained Hits or Lethal Hits are both ace abilites though and I don't think Dark Pact is a bad ability (or even the worst they've shown off). It's definitely not Oaths of Moment mind you. Both parts of the Pact reward Quantity over Quality which is basically what CSM have been moved towards anyways

 

Very excited to see what else we get!

[MDops]

On 5/26/2023 at 1:51 AM, TrawlingCleaner said:

Part of me suspects that Marks go back to only confering a Keyword (to use strats on) and unlocking the Mark's Icon. I don't think the Marks themselves will give additional rules like they do in 9th. We've seen the Berzerker and Rubric Icons, whilst the Rubric one is applicable to us the Berzerker one definitely isn't. Perhaps we'll get totally seperate ones.

 

On Dark Pact, I think it's a good ability but not 100% sure the MW bit was needed. I'd feel a lot better about it if it was purely a Battleshock test with no damage taken if failed. Having said that, we haven't seen the rest of the army and there's likely to be some nutty combos in there (Abby, 10 Combi Bolters and Sustained Hits come to mind...)

Sustained Hits or Lethal Hits are both ace abilites though and I don't think Dark Pact is a bad ability (or even the worst they've shown off). It's definitely not Oaths of Moment mind you. Both parts of the Pact reward Quantity over Quality which is basically what CSM have been moved towards anyways

 

Very excited to see what else we get!

 

Sound like a step back to 8th with the marks being more of a nod to fluf. Possibly expanded when we get our book

 

Taking a thumb suck guess, I suspect more people are going to chose to use the sustained hits option over the leathal hits being closer to what we currently kinda have in 9th. Leathal seems more like a boost to hit something we shouldn't be using the weapon against (pistol at a rhino kinda thing)

[Kaiju Soze]

1 hour ago, MDops said:

Taking a thumb suck guess, I suspect more people are going to chose to use the sustained hits option over the leathal hits being closer to what we currently kinda have in 9th. Leathal seems more like a boost to hit something we shouldn't be using the weapon against (pistol at a rhino kinda thing)

Someone over in News & Rumours (I think) did some maths and worked out that Lethal Hits is better if you need a 5+(or worse) to wound, otherwise Sustained Hits has better numbers.

 

So pretty much, yeah.

[Doctor Perils]

I believe we have seen some weapons with Sustained Hits built in already, so Lethal Hits would be a better choice in that case

[Tokugawa]

On 5/17/2023 at 4:25 AM, Cryptix said:

I want to believe that Daemonkin are going to be battleshock oriented to have synergy with daemons. Imagine if:

- Daemon Princes were differentiated from Chaos Lords by switching their aura to one that forces enemies to reroll successful battleshock and leadership tests. 

- Princes and Possessed kept their Fearsome -1 to enemy Battleshock Aura

- Warptalons' Warpflames forced Battleshock whenever they charged. 

I really miss the DAEMON keyword synergy from the 8th edition days, it'd be nice rir something similar to return 

Cross book / faction buffs would be no more in 10th. Your daemon friends are "Legio daemonica" now.

[Maschinenpriester]

I just saw that all the FW choices are moving to legends. I feel like this is a hard blow for us.

I think all the FW option have had a positive impact on how chaos performed in the past.

I especially feel sad for the loss of our drop pod.

Of course we can play them outside of tournaments but the lack of points uptadtes will let everything die a slow death...

[WatchCaptainNavar]

It’s definitely a hard blow, my iron warriors have always struggled with the heavy support slots as a lot of our units seem to underperform for their points cost.

 

I had considered a quad las cannon pred, but my experience with my iron hands predators after Decembers balance patch and points was a why? For a similar points cost loyalists got gladiator’s and the reaper especially steals the predators lunch money with I’ll see your lascannons or autocannon and raise you on twin onslaught Gatling cannons, bolters, heavy stubber and Icarus rockets for 130 pts plus it’s t8.

 

I think my go to in 10th will probably be the vindicator again if it shares the demolisher cannon profile with the one previewed on the Baneblade. I’m also curious on what’s going to happen to havocs in terms of new abilities now the heavy rule exists as I’m thinking mass havoc autocannons might be fun they’re base bs 3+ with the heavy keyword on the legionaries and are A2 S9 AP-1 D3 so gaining a critical mass of them through havocs and legionaries might be a good way to kill terminator equivalents with failed saves and plink damage off of vehicles, even more so with dark pacts. 
 

other than that I’m hoping our terminators will keep a matching cost parity with the loyalists as late 9th hurt when our terminators became significantly more expensive and I’m hoping with old dreads going hellbrutes might get a bit of a glow up to be closer to the redemptor platform statline, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one.

[Prot]

All of FW is going Legends? Even Decimators? That really sucks. 
 

My kingdom for a malific lord!  ( just kidding… I don’t miss that at all… never used it but I had opponents that did ) what I will miss is the diversity and “chaosy” feel FW units gave us. 
 

So far I’m really not liking what I’m seeing on paper, but again this truly is old hat for long time chaos players. It’s truly historical at this point and I expect no different. Loyalist Marines will start the edition as the cat’s meow. Chaos will ride a small part of that opening wave…. Like experiencing what it’s like for a bolter to kill something for the first 3-6 months.  Eventually we get a grand treatment as the edition closes out. 
 

but this time is a bit different as we see we get a codex in a relatively quick time this edition. So while I may not be super enthusiastic about what’s put on paper I’m still holding full judgement ( still despise us having a possible negative outcome from Dark Gods). 
 

I will definitely miss FW, but I agree and have been looking at Autocannon Havocs. If they retain move/shoot abilities then we may be hitting on 2+. And as someone who’s always played a terminator heavy force, there could be great upside there. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Prot

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

On 5/25/2023 at 9:22 AM, WrathOfTheLion said:

I think Dark Pact is flexible, but I can't help but think other army rules are better.

 

I feel the same way now that we have much more information.  

 

CSM can choose lethal or sustained hits but will take a bunch of mortals over the course of a game.  Black Templars just get either all game with no mortals... and oath of moment.  Ridiculous.

[WrathOfTheLion]

7 minutes ago, SanguinaryGuardsman said:

 

I feel the same way now that we have much more information.  

 

CSM can choose lethal or sustained hits but will take a bunch of mortals over the course of a game.  Black Templars just get either all game with no mortals... and oath of moment.  Ridiculous.

That's with their detachment bonus, so we do need to compare with ours, which hasn't been shown off.

 

But yes, it isn't so favorable if others can get it with no price, unless certain datasheets can get greater bonuses from dark pact as well. A negative tradeoff should come with greater rewards.

Edited June 2, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[WatchCaptainNavar]

Don’t forget that dark pact is our army rule, they haven’t shown the csm index detachment as far as I’m aware. The only hint in the article was that it’s something to do with marks of chaos, so having seen the space wolf detachment rules now I wonder if csm will be similar. I.e. if a unit meets condition X during your the battle round your army gains a mark of chaos and benefits from the following benefit. So to spitball one of a unit from your army wipes out an enemy unit completely in the fight phase gain the mark of khorne for +1 strength & AP in the fight phase for your army.

 

 I’m curious to see what the codexes bring as we know rather than new units and profiles of the past the codex will bring 6 alternate detachments, we haven’t seen the index one yet but I’m guessing they pull a legion / warning theme into each but generalise the description. If they go up in price though for 6 alternate detachments I don’t think I’ll be buying any this edition.

 

 Yeah I think csm are going to be in a strange place without our forge world crutches, now are highest strength shooting weapons are going to be vindicator demolisher and possibly soul forged las cannons. Having seen yesterdays data card for the plague crawler I’m worried the dakka fiend is going to take a hit with its plasma and find re profiled into anti infantry weapons. As a suitably buffed triple plasma fiend did okay anti tank work for me in 9th.

 That said I’m hoovering up my old mk3 marines heavy weapons and am hoping this be the edition where I can run max sized shooty legionnaire squads and not have them feel like a waste of points compared to the combat legionaries

[danodan123]

I believe it has been hinted that the CSM detachment bonus is something to do with the various god marks, however if this is just a copy and paste from 9e, I hope it's more then the same boosts and that the 'icon' abilities from 9e are included instead of just the Mark bonus itself. ie, +1 str and +1 ap in melee for Khorne.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Death Guard Rhinos have a transport capacity of TWELVE.  Attaching characters to big squads is back on the menu, boys!

[WrathOfTheLion]

12 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Death Guard Rhinos have a transport capacity of TWELVE.  Attaching characters to big squads is back on the menu, boys!

That was an excellent change in 30k, really nice to see it make it to 40k as well.

[Prot]

1 hour ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Death Guard Rhinos have a transport capacity of TWELVE.  Attaching characters to big squads is back on the menu, boys!

 

This is great news.... but which one of us is going to convince Abaddon to get in the back of a Rhino? 

 

I was going to bring up the Templar thing, but someone already did. Just from the perspective of they lost any negative they used to have. (IE: losing cover for the 5++)

 

The biggest reason this Dark Gods thing doesn't sit well with me is I played a TON of games with our 9th ed codex and I loved it. Just me talking my own experiences here, but I really loved it. I felt most codexes would be a lot more fun if they used our CSM 9th ed codex as a template.

 

One of the fun things about our 9th ed Let the Galaxy Burn, 6's to hit were basically 'sustained hits', is I could always have fun fishing for it. I'm sure if anyone were bored enough you'd see I posted about how much I was having just fishing for the odd six on a landraider, or a hellbrute, or Oblit... these are things I think are gone unless you're totally playing fluffy/for fun which is fine. I feel like that's gone now. I just got a real kick out of it. 

 

The real thing I'm wondering though at this point is clarity on Combi-weapons. As someone who leaned heavily into Termies (and I really want to do so in 10th), I always relied heavily on a few Multi-meltas to do some heavy lifting in that squad. I'm not sure where this will end up.

 

I could see the Possessed Meta coming back. Why risk angering the Dark Gods with pleb level shooting when you can try to farm the hits/wounds in CC with a fast moving unit?

 

One unit I really want to see is the Chosen Datasheet. They could steal the thunder away from Termies if they get some ability that allows greater leverage of Dark Gods (IE: Lethal hits/wounds and/or no downside.)

 

Great news about the Rhino though.... just not sure how to leverage it yet, but again Chosen just got a bit more tasty with the appropriate buffing character in a Rhino (Now that we know we can fire twice from a Rhino and be buffed inside).

 

 

[Guzzlrr]

I don't know how i feel about the negative, shouldn't be happening too much but i dunno why everything chaotic has to be steeped in RNG or cause self harm. a trope i wish they would move away from. fluff wise its cool But its not the worst trait I've seen i suppose will need to see the rest of the index and mess around for a few games to fully wrap my head around it.

[Rain]

22 minutes ago, Guzzlrr said:

I don't know how i feel about the negative, shouldn't be happening too much but i dunno why everything chaotic has to be steeped in RNG or cause self harm. a trope i wish they would move away from. fluff wise its cool But its not the worst trait I've seen i suppose will need to see the rest of the index and mess around for a few games to fully wrap my head around it.

 

The main problem is that the other side of the coin should be worth it. Yes, Chaos can harm the user but when it "works" the bonus should be significantly better that something other factions can just get with no downside. Also, my Boys in Blood and Brass, who follow arguably the most self-destructive Chaos God/ideology, just get bonuses (some of which I would argue are better than the Dark Pact bonuses) with no potential of offing themselves, and in most cases they can pick 2 bonuses per battle round, which apply army wide. Feels like regular CSM got shafted, but then you guys are up for a full codex months to years before we are.

[Guzzlrr]

yeah but CSM has quite a big box of tools compared to WE, CSM can actually shoot and have a more varied approach to warfare, Sustained hits is just the old DTFE while lethal his will really help against anything tough (rotor cannon havoks on big tough units could be interesting as an example) Demon Engines that can shoot (which hopfully get a decent glow up) so based on that id imagine the WE lack of range would warrant better army rules to make up for the lack of roster

[Rain]

@Guzzlrr That's a fair enough point. I don't really decry the WE lack of options personally as to me the army was always a horde of berzerkers, choppy HQ's and vehicles. Maybe add some possessed (sorry, "Eightbound") or termies to taste, but I would never have considered Havocs or Raptors, as Havocs are for cowards (sarcasm if not obvious), and the Raptor models are hideous.

 

Anything that makes my boys faster or tankier as they run forward screaming incoherently is welcome. As the new rules allow for both, I am quite happy with them, and hugely prefer Blessing of Khorne over what CSM got. That said, Dark Pacts are more predictable as they always go off, so no prayers to the Gods needed to get the particular bonus you want on the turn you want, and are more broadly applicable by virtue of the army being more varied as you say. Still, I don't feel like the juice is worth the squeeze relative to many other army rules.

[Guzzlrr]

what i think perhaps is the biggest deal for CSM players which i haven't seen mentioned, what's the new prayer system going to be like and what about all the utility were about to loose from psychic that's more what's concerning me atm but if the leaks are true we wont have to wait too long to find out.

[Prot]

8 minutes ago, Guzzlrr said:

what i think perhaps is the biggest deal for CSM players which i haven't seen mentioned, what's the new prayer system going to be like and what about all the utility were about to loose from psychic that's more what's concerning me atm but if the leaks are true we wont have to wait too long to find out.

 

That's a good point. Honestly I just assumed it would have the same mechanism as a character. You join a squad and "X" buff happens to them. No more time spent on choices, or rolling it out. I could be 100% wrong as I'm just making the assumption from other stuff we've seen.