Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: World Eaters

[KnightofSigismund]

4 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Some of the maths is a bit convoluted but I can make a start.

 

Chance of bringing Angron back is 13% before rerolls

You are guaranteed at get at least 2 Doubles or a Triple every turn

 

I will get some more results once my brain stops hurting. 

I have faith in you!!!

[Karhedron]

4 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Chance of bringing Angron back is 13% before rerolls

You are guaranteed at get at least 2 Doubles or a Triple every turn

 

I will get some more results once my brain stops hurting. 

 

Martial Excellence 2 x 3+ = 63%

 

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

22 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

TS, DG and WE all lost access to biker and raptor units, reason unknown, maybe price for becoming independent faction.

 

For fairness I like not having all the vanilla toys as a cult legion, only seems fair. We get ours and they get theirs. And for DG, they didn't really utilize bikers or raptors so it works out fluff wise too.

 

Definitely the price for being an independent faction. Don't want to turn into 9th edition dark angels 2.0 with all the normal units and rules + extra free rules and units. That was dumb and unhealthy for the game.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Khornestar said:

I like the icon mechanic of being able to reroll the blessing dice if the unit is on an objective. I hope jakhals get that ability, too.

 

Is it a reroll per Icon Unit on Objective? I couldn't quite tell.

 

1 hour ago, Petitioner's City said:

I had hoped they'd make mention of "returning" units that were missing from the codex - normal chaos lords or an equivalent, warpsmiths, bikers, vindicator, raptors in some nasty khorne version, and yes some havocs a la Lheor's rotor cannon squad in Talon.*SNIP*, nor take the chance to give us the churigeons who add in the nails to newer recruits. 

 

Overall, fun rules, and love the 8 dice, but still such a limited take on these boys, after the depth of the death guard release.

 

I think anything added to the army list - returning or new - would only be previewed close to a new codex release (because new minis launching with a new codex, etc).

 

EDIT: Regarding Raptors and World Eaters, there's a great scene in the Angron Primarch novella where a post-Heresy World Eater is running around with the ruined remains of a jump pack on his back because he effectively kept "Hammer of Wrathing" until it broke and he's so flooded with Khorne power that he's basically running as fast he was going when it worked.

Edited May 12, 2023 by jaxom

[Karhedron]

14 minutes ago, KnightofSigismund said:

I have faith in you!!!

 

Total carnage = 91%

Warp Blades = 83%

Unbridled Bloodlust = 58%

 

I stopped doing high level maths 25 years ago so I am prepared to be mistaken on those but I think those numbers are correct. These do not take rerolls from the Icons into account so that means you will have a good chance of getting at least one of the higher level powers off each turn.

[Dr. Clock]

As essentially 'expanded list of one-use situational Stratagems', I'm okay with this.

 

It does feel better to take any kind of big unit when our core mechanic isn't tied to 'unit destruction', especially because I think 'easy unit kills' is going to be quite a bit less common or easy to achieve in one turn if you're not building that way. Even now, there's a strong tension between 'taking 10 Zerks' to get max potential benefit out of Blood Surge, and taking 5 because you're going to for BTP efficiency and general board coverage.

 

With such big changes to how characters and buffs work, I expect this is heading to a 'characters in big squads' meta where most ppl will base armies around Max squad sizes, and including as many efficient characters as they can.

 

Depending on how Invocatus or other move bonuses are available, I hope my 2x10 Zerks on foot w/ Invo makes at least a similar amount of sense to going full rhino rush.

 

Blood Tithe Points is a fun mechanic, but I can see how it's over-complex for the new edition, and it also seems like they're moving away from most progressive/stacking army buffs, whether in prescribed or selected tempo: Doctrines and Dark Pacts are replacing the 'uniform tempo' of buffs with either one-time choices, or universal tradeoff options at the unit level. I bet Drukhari will be the only ones to keep a clear turn-over-turn progression, but that could also end up simplified quite a bit indeed (like make it a 3-step process instead of 5-step, just like Grudge tokens cap at 2 from 3).

 

Right now it does feel like I basically end up with ~3 bonuses on my units in roughly the same order (+1 charge, +1AP, Fnp or something else) and then stop keeping track. I didn't become a Khorne player to have to keep books every turn. I did it to run at them seeking only doom.

 

Just a friendly reminder that Berzerkers were the FIRST to get FnP. It's our mechanic, the Death Guard just perfected it ; )

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Dr. Clock

[Rain]

Does it say anywhere what squad sizes Berzerkers can be taken in? I don’t see it. It’s not locked to 10, is it?

 

Anyway, love it. Blood Tithe, while fluffy, involves bookkeeping, which I don’t love while gaming, and encourages very gamey choices like the single spawn someone mentioned earlier. The “roll 8 Khorne dice and pick up to 2 bonuses per turn” option is much better. We even get a guaranteed faster movement result if we want it, and Angron respawns on a 666. Fun!

[Sir Clausel]

Feel like reroll hits will be always on on Angron. Maybe the +1 on charges. The last one just seems lackluster compared to the reroll.

And does Angrons revive counts as one of the two blessings you can do each battleround?

[Special Officer Doofy]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Clock said:

Just a friendly reminder that Berzerkers were the FIRST to get FnP. It's our mechanic, the Death Guard just perfected it ; )

 

While they did get it before plague marines, they were not the first to get it. Death Company had it first if I remember correctly (3.0 codex versus the 3.5 chaos one). So they weren't the first or the ones to perfect it ; )

[Petitioner's City]

1 hour ago, Tokugawa said:

TS, DG and WE all lost access to biker and raptor units, reason unknown, maybe price for becoming independent faction.

 

To be fair, thousand sons never did have biker and raptor units as such (although Amon did hire warp talons to try to assassinate Ahriman in Exile, they were just mercenaries). 

 

The lack of TS units kind of feels appropriate (and reflects them since 3rd edition, and even 2nd), but the treatment of WEs just feels a bit flat compared to the amount of world building the Death Guard received. 

[Commander Dawnstar]

2 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

How can GW talk about reducing damage when we have S18 Damage 6+d6 guns?

 

Because in 9th that weapon hits for 2d3+6 damage, ignores invulnerable saves, and its damage overflows across multiple models on a 6 to wound.

 

Also Eye of the Ancestors allows it to auto-wound off the to hit roll.

[Special Officer Doofy]

13 minutes ago, Commander Dawnstar said:

 

Because in 9th that weapon hits for 2d3+6 damage, ignores invulnerable saves, and its damage overflows across multiple models on a 6 to wound.

 

Also Eye of the Ancestors allows it to auto-wound off the to hit roll.

 

But there were models like Be'lakor that had -1 to be hit, -1 to be wounded and -1D from range. None of that is on his sheet now (except whatever stealth is). I doubt Mortarion keeps his -1D, 5+++ and conditional -1 to be hit (would love to be wrong though). The stuff to keep the big guys up are disappearing as well.

 

Edit: maybe they think higher toughness will offset that? But they were usually being shot off the table with anti tank guns that are now all S12-16 probably (except meltas for some silly reason). Hopefully they come with a points drop. None of the info they show us is complete with out it.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[Karhedron]

7 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

Hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, Angron has a 50% chance to fail his saves and boom Minimum 14 damage IF they roll double 1's on the damage.

 

I think your maths is off. The Magna Rail cannon only has 1 attack.

 

Average 0.67 hits, 0.45 wound rolls, 0.22 failed saves equals an average of just 3 wounds per shot allowing for MWs from Devastating Wounds. Now granted it is going to be swingy. A single shot can deal 7-12 wounds but the majority will either miss, fail to wound or bounce off his invuln. It would take 6 MRCs to reliably take down Angron in a single turn.

 

Granted the Hekaton has more than just the MRC but there is no way a single Hekaton or even 3 are killing Angron easily.

[burningsky25]

15 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

A single hekaton landfortress could kill Angron easily.

 

Hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, Angron has a 50% chance to fail his saves and boom Minimum 14 damage IF they roll double 1's on the damage.

 

Am I missing something? Is there is a special rule for Epic Hero characters?

 

Well, a single HLF only has one shot with a Heavy  Magna Rail Cannon if I'm not mistaken which already cuts that in half, unless I'm missing the premise here.  The big thing here is - anything is possible.  That could happen with two shots.  A lot of things could.  But the average is somewhere much closer to ~3 wounds from Angron lost per shot from HMRC.  It won't have that outcome often, it will mostly be valleys and peaks, but then I think that's a lot more weapons in general in 10th.

 

Nothing in that interaction look suspect to me, especially compared to current weapon stats.

 

Edit: Karhedron beat me to it  least I know my math wasn't way off!

Edited May 12, 2023 by burningsky25

[Jolemai]

As a Brit, that acronym doesn't work - Angron would lose a lot more from His Majesty's Revenue & Customs 

[Prot]

I played the new (9th ed) World Eaters a lot, and Angron died multiple times every game, very frequently not making it into close combat. There would be the odd game where he did, and the results could be swingy. (Basically when he died, you're at the mercy of the deep strike area your opponent has left you. Good opponents make sure you're trapped)

 

That said, he often died to melta upon melta upon meltashot... the 9th edition curse of anything T7.  So now at least he's got some protection against Melta. At T11 at least he has to be hit by real anti-tank.

 

As far as the Hekaton Landfortress.... yes, I hate that thing as well, but honestly this hasn't changed much. Angron always got clocked by this thing, and he will in 10th.  What's worse is the grudge token. I have had a lot of games against Votann where he never had a chance against that mechanic, and that will most likely be bad matchup again.

 

So my advice? Just roll triple 6's!!! 

 

Seriously though I don't think Angron actually changed in his execution of style, and merit. He never was a 'meta' choice, Berzerkers were, and in Rhino's I predict they'll be the lynchpin of the army again.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Prot

[Commander Dawnstar]

26 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

But there were models like Be'lakor that had -1 to be hit, -1 to be wounded and -1D from range.

 

And then LoV stuck three Judgement Tokens on him and all their weapons would auto-wound on an unmodified 4+ to hit. Obviously that wasn't universal issue, but this did start with talk about the Land Fortress.

 

Not disputing that big models seem to be losing some/all of their defensive tools, but broadly speaking the lethality of stuff coming their way is going down even if it's still presenting some big numbers. A lot of the recent big scary guns are nerfed versions of their 9th Edition incarnations when you take a closer look.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Commander Dawnstar

[Prot]

As a side note is there not some form of protection for these models? If I recall aren't Lionel and Guilliman protected as a lone operative rule? Something like... unless you're within 12" you can't shoot at him if he's within range of a friendly squad?

 

Does anything like that exist for Angron?

[Special Officer Doofy]

3 minutes ago, Commander Dawnstar said:

 

And then LoV stuck three Judgement Tokens on him and all their weapons would auto-wound on an unmodified 4+ to hit.

 

Not disputing that big models seem to be losing some/all of their defensive tools, but on the whole the lethality of stuff coming their way is going down.

 

Yes, that was LoV, one of the strongest armies of 9th. Most factions couldn't do that. Lethality is going down overall, I won't argue that. But making the big units lose their staying power doesn't help them at all (unless that comes with a decent points drop, who knows).

 

Unrelated, I wonder how the Juggerlord will work now? Probably can't join Berzerkers but still gives a buff to them I wonder?

[Blight1]

Just going to point out Angron lacks towering or titanic so he benefits from line of sight blocking from terrain.

[Doobles57]

1 hour ago, Sir Clausel said:

Feel like reroll hits will be always on on Angron. Maybe the +1 on charges. The last one just seems lackluster compared to the reroll.

And does Angrons revive counts as one of the two blessings you can do each battleround?

I'm reading it as it doesn't count as one of the two blessings. It says "you can use a triple 6 to use this ability" not that the ability is a "Blessing of Khorne" that requires that roll. So I'd say you can use your 3 6's to revive Angron and then, if you've still got the dice to do so, choose two of the blessings.

Probably will be FAQ'd early on though if there's no extra context in the rest of the index.

[Rain]

Kind of funny that it doesn’t look like anything akin to Fearless is a thing. I guess it makes sense given that Battleshock seems to be a major mechanic that they are pushing, but the idea of Khorne Berzerkers or ANGRON being “shocked” by battle is a bit silly.

 

If anything, World Eaters should have peace shock rules in which they have to roll leadership checks when not enough has died the last turn 

[Doobles57]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

Kind of funny that it doesn’t look like anything akin to Fearless is a thing. I guess it makes sense given that Battleshock seems to be a major mechanic that they are pushing, but the idea of Khorne Berzerkers or ANGRON being “shocked” by battle is a bit silly.

 

If anything, World Eaters should have peace shock rules in which they have to roll leadership checks when not enough has died the last turn 

I've felt this way about a few factions to be fair (e.g. Necrons), but I've come to the conclusion that you have to make it a little abstract in what "Battleshocked" means. Otherwise half the factions would be immune to it and it'd be a useless mechanic.

For World Eaters it could represent the unit fighting amongst itself or berserkly hacking apart the bodies of already dead enemies or something like that. The effect of not controlling an objective, not being able to receive stratagems etc would be the same.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Doobles88

[Kaiju Soze]

Heck, battle shock could just mean "unit is too disorientated by current circumstances to focus", which supports the move away from calling it morale.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Kaiju Soze

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yeah, I think GW has been really smart and opened up a huge design space by making leadership/morale less about running away and more about being combat effective.  While I personally feel it should have a slightly bigger drawback (like a -1 to hit), I'll have to see if I still feel that way once I have seen it in action.

 

I also feel heartened by GW not introducing a new mechanic and then immediately creating a mechanic that allows units get circumvent that mechanic (like fearlessness) - I think its great that we haven't seen anything like that yet, even from places one might expect such a rule, such as Tyranid's synapse ability or the auras of the epic characters we have seen.  Indeed, I really like how the synapse ability makes battleshock less likely (by giving a reroll) without making it useless.  I also like how GW appears to have decreased the leadership of some units so as to make the rule more relevant - from what we've seen, 6+ seems to be the standard for elite infantry (which would be ld 8 now), and necrons, who currently are mostly ld 10 (which would be 4+ under the new system) are now leadership 7+.  Leadership appears to cap out at 5+ (which is ld 9 under current rules) for units that are "epic" (both in nature and in rules terms), as that is what Guilleman, Abaddon and Angron all have.

 

I'm interested in seeing to what extent the mechanic is applied outside the ordinary "morale phase" context - for example, we've seen a tyranid unit (the screamer killer) that can force battleshock rolls, and that being is a transport that is destroyed automatically battleshocks a unit.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui