Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: World Eaters

[DesuVult]

The faction rule feels like a straight upgrade of the CSM faction rule.

[prava]

1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

But there were models like Be'lakor that had -1 to be hit, -1 to be wounded and -1D from range. None of that is on his sheet now (except whatever stealth is). I doubt Mortarion keeps his -1D, 5+++ and conditional -1 to be hit (would love to be wrong though). The stuff to keep the big guys up are disappearing as well.

 

Edit: maybe they think higher toughness will offset that? But they were usually being shot off the table with anti tank guns that are now all S12-16 probably (except meltas for some silly reason). Hopefully they come with a points drop. None of the info they show us is complete with out it.

 

Belakor couldn't hide using obscuring ruins so he was sitting ducks pretty much everywhere. And now not only he benefits from obscuring ALSO he benefits from his own rule that makes hit not being targetable at more than 18". 

 

What more protection do you need than that? 2+ FNP rerolling?

 

1 hour ago, KrakenBorn said:

I don’t understand why anybody would take Angron. 

 

All the guns we have seen lately are S16 or S18 and able to 2 shot Angron easily.

 

How can GW talk about reducing damage when we have S18 Damage 6+d6 guns?

 

A single hekaton landfortress could kill Angron easily.

 

Hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, Angron has a 50% chance to fail his saves and boom Minimum 14 damage IF they roll double 1's on the damage.

 

Am I missing something? Is there is a special rule for Epic Hero characters?

 

Not trying to be a crybaby or a doom and gloomer here; I am just genuinely  confused by the design direction. All they've done is remove chip damage and instead add a bunch of OP anti tank guns.

 

What? 2 shot Andron easily? For starters Angron has a 4+ invuln saves. Simply by using a command re-roll the WE player has a 75% chance of suffering no damage from said weapons. But before... they have to hit and wound. And if all goes well, score decent on its damage.

 

AND Angron can hide behind ruins now.

 

So not sure what stats are you looking at, Angron is more dangerous than ever because he can hide.

 

1 hour ago, Prot said:

As a side note is there not some form of protection for these models? If I recall aren't Lionel and Guilliman protected as a lone operative rule? Something like... unless you're within 12" you can't shoot at him if he's within range of a friendly squad?

 

Does anything like that exist for Angron?

 

Protection? Both Belakor and Angron have never been so protected as they will be in 10th. For starters they do benefit from obscuring terrain which means you can easily hide them, which is something you couldn't do before.

 

Also, melta guns are half as effective against them, and also have less range.

[Zeruel]

1 hour ago, KrakenBorn said:

I don’t understand why anybody would take Angron. 

 

All the guns we have seen lately are S16 or S18 and able to 2 shot Angron easily.

 

How can GW talk about reducing damage when we have S18 Damage 6+d6 guns?

 

A single hekaton landfortress could kill Angron easily.

 

Hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, Angron has a 50% chance to fail his saves and boom Minimum 14 damage IF they roll double 1's on the damage.

 

Am I missing something? Is there is a special rule for Epic Hero characters?

 

Assuming you're talking about the Magna Rail Cannon, if your opponent starts the game with Angron as their choice to have two judgement tokens, then a Land Fortress sitting still has a 34% chance of landing a shot, wounding with it and having Angron fail his invulnerable save for an average of 9.5 damage if he does and that's best case scenario for it. Plus Angron doesn't have towering so presumably you can now actually hide him behind buildings as well (it seems Towering replaced the 18 wound thing).

 

Edit: Theoretically, on average, it would take a Land Fortress around six turns of best case scenario shooting Angron by itself to bring Angron down and that's if the Fortress doesn't move while Angron can fly 14", hide behind terrain, command re-roll a failed invul save etc. Though the Fortress could spike the Mortal Wounds to get through his invul on the 6 to wound, it's unlikely it's doing that twice a game and Angron can easily soak the first hit anyway.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Zeruel

[Rain]

42 minutes ago, Doobles88 said:

I've felt this way about a few factions to be fair (e.g. Necrons), but I've come to the conclusion that you have to make it a little abstract in what "Battleshocked" means. Otherwise half the factions would be immune to it and it'd be a useless mechanic.

For World Eaters it could represent the unit fighting amongst itself or berserkly hacking apart the bodies of already dead enemies or something like that. The effect of not controlling an objective, not being able to receive stratagems etc would be the same.

I know, my comment was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek. A lot of gameplay mechanics need some abstraction to not conflict with lore. It is what it is. I’m excited about these rules.

[Marshal Reinhard]

So I get the impression you're supposed to mix strikes and sweeps with Angrons melee weapons from the way that arrow on his card is explained? How is that supposed to work when the attack numbers are different? Or is it just saying pick one of the profiles? That's how it'd have worked normally (presumably) so I don't quite see the need for the extra explanation, if so?

Edited May 12, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Or is it just saying pick one of the profiles?

 

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Even if it didn't say specifically that you chose one or the other, the Demons faction focus makes clear that a model has to chose one entry in its melee options and use just that option unless it has the "Extra Attacks" weapon trait,

 

So, yes, in any given combat round all your attacks would either be sweep or strike and you can't mix the 2.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Marshal Reinhard]

6 minutes ago, Kallas said:

*snip*

Exactly. How is this different from normal?

 

Why the need for this extra clarification? just because they're sort of the same name? (save the -strike / -sweep at the end?)

Edited May 12, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Exactly. How is this different from normal?

 

Why the need for this extra clarification? just because they're sort of the same name? (save the -strike / -sweep at the end?)

Oh, I see, I thought you were asking something else 

 

Uh, it's the same for ranged weapons, and we've seen it on other weapons (eg, Morvenn Vahl's Lance of Illumination). I would assume it's because they have one weapon, whereas someone like Guilliman or Abaddon have two weapons, so you are forced to pick one anyway. I guess it could be argued that you would choose one weapon and you'd get to fight with both profiles; this specification means that you pick your one weapon and then you must pick one profile.

[Kallas]

16 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

In 9th I brought Mortarion to a game and watched him get hit with all the melta; when my friend brought Angron I doggy piled him with Wulfen and Bladeguard.....

The amount of melta needed will likely double, or more. Melta has gone from needing 3s to wound, to needing 5s to wound, so literally halving their successful wound rolls.

 

Wulfen/Bladeguard, assuming similar profiles to the Terminator Thunder Hammers and Power Weapons will also need massively more attacks: THs also went from wounding on 3s to wounding on 5s; and Power Weapons will need 6s instead of 5s, both suffering from halved successful wound rolls.

 

As for the anti-tank guns: they haven't actually increased in damage by that much. The Repulsor Executioner's Heavy Laser Destroyer is now improved over its 9th Edition form...but it really only has gained +4 Strength (which is only needed to keep up with increased Toughness: it's still wounding most vehicles on 3s, as it did before) and the Damage has changed from d3+3 to d6+4 (which is a substantial increase in range, and an increase in minimum). Considering this is supposed to be a premier anti-tank weapon...that's kind of fair.

 

Other anti-tank weapons, such as the Lascannon, are not nearly as buffed (eg, the 10e Lascannon is only +1D over the 9e LC, plus the slight adjustment to S inline with T changes). With the changed terrain rules making big models without Towering/Titanic easier to hide and the overall lethality of weapons coming down across the board, these big units are tougher.

 

How much so will depend very much on how easy it is to field these big game hunters like the Shadowsword and Repulsor Executioner: if the RE costs 300-400 points, you're not going to see many at a time, and if you do it's a significant investment; but if they cost 200 points then it could be a problem.

 

23 minutes ago, KrakenBorn said:

GW promised a scaling back of AP and damage and that isn’t what has been delivered, disagree with my respect all you like I don't care because I am bang on correct.

No, you're not. We've seen plenty of weapons being reduced in power, and we've seen factions degrade in their accuracy which will also reduce lethality.

 

There is a lot of the picture still unknown, but in general lethality is looking to be down.

[Khornestar]

Some rampant hyperbole going on.

 

Yes, there are some very powerful guns this edition. However, being able to get cover, T11, a 4++ unlikely to be ignored, easy access to a FNP, AP reductions, etc. all make Angron more survivable. 
 

There, there, now. Let’s see if all this doom and gloom ends up being a bit of an overreaction.

[WrathOfTheLion]

What it has done is increase the design space of weapons. They can make a ranged attack that is meant to wound on 3s still do so, while making other smaller weapons still wound smaller units as they did, but not larger units.

[Marshal Loss]

I don't like the Blessings system anywhere near as much as Blood Tithe, which just felt like the perfect Khorne army rule to me. BTP probably needed some tweaks and there were undoubtedly issues, but it made more thematic sense to me than a rule where Khorne's attention fluctuates on a round by round basis. The new system looks powerful enough and we clearly have ways to manipulate it, but it's also disconnected from the slaughter taking place on the battlefield (I would have thought that killing would attract Khorne's attention more effectively than waving around an icon while standing on an objective).

 

The rest looks fine, and I think they did a great job with Angron. Wish they'd shown us the Detachment rule though.

[Khornestar]

 

A lot of goodness here, including rapid ingress on Angron. XD

[MaximusTL]

 

Skarbrand and Angron's attack profiles are pretty similar. Angron's sweep profile is flatly better with an extra 2 attacks and an AP, but its interesting that Skarbrand's strike is a flat 6 compared to Angron's d6+2. Skarbrand seems more contistent vs. Angron's potential to spike with 8 damage. personally, im just surprised that a Bloodthirster only has AP-1 on a melee profile.

[Khornestar]

Best to bring ‘em both!

[marspeople]

Did they say anything about what their detachment rules are?

[Rain]

4 minutes ago, marspeople said:

Did they say anything about what their detachment rules are?

Looks like the detachment is called Berzerker Warband as it says that on the strat they showed, but no actual detachment rules that I could see.

[sairence]

That blessings table looks super reliable. You're basically guaranteed 2 doubles or a tripple, before adding any Zerkers for rerolls. 

[Remain_Indoors]

Really not happy about the Blessings system compared to the Blood Tithe. I'm a primarily narrative player and the existing system is far more thematic than the new one. With Blood Tithe, it rewards you for playing aggressively. If you aren't willing to shed blood, your enemy's or your own, then you don't get anything. 

 

Just rolling 8 dice every turn and getting rewarded for nothing is nowhere near as fitting. And its thrown a bucket of water over my enthusiasm for the next edition. My World Eaters may end up on the shelf until they get a Codex that hopefully fixes this error.

[Vanger]

23 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

Yeah, I think GW has been really smart and opened up a huge design space by making leadership/morale less about running away and more about being combat effective.  While I personally feel it should have a slightly bigger drawback (like a -1 to hit), I'll have to see if I still feel that way once I have seen it in action.

 

Battleschocked doesn't need any more penalties than this. If a unit gets shocked, it loses usefullness in controling the board and scoring victory points (OC 0), it also loses potential efficiency as you can't use stratagems and they lose some rules, like Orders. But they still have their physical presence on the board, like move block and screening, and they are still useful as they can move, shoot, fight. so it's not liek shocked units are completely useless. And that's great imo.

[bigtrouble]

On 5/12/2023 at 6:04 AM, Lord Marshal said:

Maybe I'm misreading something but In terms of flavour this feels like an L for me. Just rolling to get a random assortment of buffs doesn't feel nearly as thematic as Blood Tithe does. 

I’m guessing there are some ways to get more dice or modify them. This being strictly probabilistic without away to change the probabilities feels strange.

[Karhedron]

12 minutes ago, bigtrouble said:

I’m guessing there are some ways to get more dice or modify them. This being strictly probabilistic without away to change the probabilities feels strange.

 

We have already seen rerolls from the Icons. On the previous page I put some probabilities up and it is really pretty easy to get most results you want since any higher result will automatically qualify for a lower one too. If you roll 3 6s but Angron is still standing (or you haven't taken him) you can still use that as a plain double if you want.

[spessmarine]

On 5/12/2023 at 10:46 AM, Doobles88 said:

I've felt this way about a few factions to be fair (e.g. Necrons), but I've come to the conclusion that you have to make it a little abstract in what "Battleshocked" means. Otherwise half the factions would be immune to it and it'd be a useless mechanic.

For World Eaters it could represent the unit fighting amongst itself or berserkly hacking apart the bodies of already dead enemies or something like that. The effect of not controlling an objective, not being able to receive stratagems etc would be the same.

 

Yeah, marines as a group alone when they ignore it make it an irrelevant mechanic since marines are like half the game.

 

On 5/12/2023 at 10:58 AM, Dr_Ruminahui said:

I also feel heartened by GW not introducing a new mechanic and then immediately creating a mechanic that allows units get circumvent that mechanic (like fearlessness) - I think its great that we haven't seen anything like that yet, even from places one might expect such a rule, such as Tyranid's synapse ability or the auras of the epic characters we have seen.  Indeed, I really like how the synapse ability makes battleshock less likely (by giving a reroll) without making it useless.  I also like how GW appears to have decreased the leadership of some units so as to make the rule more relevant - from what we've seen, 6+ seems to be the standard for elite infantry (which would be ld 8 now), and necrons, who currently are mostly ld 10 (which would be 4+ under the new system) are now leadership 7+.  Leadership appears to cap out at 5+ (which is ld 9 under current rules) for units that are "epic" (both in nature and in rules terms), as that is what Guilleman, Abaddon and Angron all have.

 

Let us see first what happens to those boys with Ld 11.

[Borbarad]

After watching several videos on the topic of the World Eaters army rule, I feel like GW needs to clarify a few things:

 

1. Can a triple also be used as a double?

2. Does Angron’s resurrection count as one of the powers or not?