Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Aeldari

[Xenith]

2 free CP per unit per turn vs the 40 free CP per turn for 10 rapid firing bolters to reroll all failed hit and wounds is no less than the eldar deserve. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Xenith

[Karhedron]

2 minutes ago, Mumeishi said:

But we don’t have points costs…?!… Aeldari could be more expensive perhaps..a smaller force but hard hitting … who knows, I’ll definitely wait till after June before I call in Henny penny  for an air strike 

 

This is a good point. Necrons, Votann and AdMech have all seen their basic infantry nerfed in some way. Guardians on the other hand have retained their 9th ed stats AND gained a squad ability that synergises nicely with a Farseer and the army rules. We only have small sample size but I see Eldar being more elite and less numerous. 20-man Guardian bombs seem less likely now.

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

As an example, a -1 Toughness on objectives for Death Guard that is removed soon as the opponent takes the objective, just doesn't compare at all to the Detachment ability of a free reroll for hits and wounds whenever it attacks.

 

Deathguard do seem to have drawn the short straw to some extent.

[Captain Idaho]

14 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

I just asked if that was correct? Have I misread the rules somewhere?

 

You're comparing the Detachment rules to the faction rules, which is missing the other factors that combine to make the faction overbearing. 

[Xenith]

3 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Deathguard do seem to have drawn the short straw to some extent.

 

Maybe, but we haven't seen their entire list. In 9th, DG had ways of projecting the (very very strong) -1T aura across the board through princes, blight drones etc. I'd take every one of my bolters wounding T3 things on a 2+ over a single reroll to wound per unit any day of the week.  

[Sword Brother Adelard]

2 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

You're comparing the Detachment rules to the faction rules, which is missing the other factors that combine to make the faction overbearing. 

 

I'm still not seeing it. 

 

But then again, as someone on here kindly pointed out to me once, because I don't play a lot of 40k I don't deserve to express an opinion on it.

[Captain Idaho]

6 minutes ago, Xenith said:

2 free CP per unit per turn vs the 40 free CP per turn for 10 rapid firing bolters to reroll all failed hit and wounds is no less than the eldar deserve. 

 

It's an unfair comparison. Not all the Marine units will be attacking the affected unit of Oath of Moment, the Marine weapons aren't as powerful as Eldar weapons generally and Marines won't benefit from Fates like Eldar. 

 

No one is saying Oath of Moment isn't powerful, but Marines are nowhere near as stacked as the combo I mentioned in this topic. 

[Xenith]

2 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

You're comparing the Detachment rules to the faction rules, which is missing the other factors that combine to make the faction overbearing. 

 

So what we're saying is that the Faction ability Oaths of Moment, which gives all marine armies infinite rerolls all the time against a single target, is weaker than the Eldar detachment ability that gives a single reroll to hit and a single reroll to wound, if the army is built in such a way as to meet the detachment criteria?

[TrawlingCleaner]

5 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

You're comparing the Detachment rules to the faction rules, which is missing the other factors that combine to make the faction overbearing. 

...Is that not also what you're doing? (I'm not mad if this is trolling, it's gotten me good so far )

[Sword Brother Adelard]

1 minute ago, Xenith said:

 

So what we're saying is that the Faction ability Oaths of Moment, which gives all marine armies infinite rerolls all the time against a single target, is weaker than the Eldar detachment ability that gives a single reroll to hit and a single reroll to wound, if the army is built in such a way as to meet the detachment criteria?

 

That appears to be what is being stated. But I'm struggling with it.

 

Where's that confused emoji when you need it...

[Captain Idaho]

12 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

 

I'm still not seeing it. 

 

But then again, as someone on here kindly pointed out to me once, because I don't play a lot of 40k I don't deserve to express an opinion on it.

 

Maybe you just need some more practice games to see where people are coming from, even if not agreeing. You could come to the Mod meets some time and I'd be happy to play some games, have a drink and a laugh with you over it.

 

10 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

So what we're saying is that the Faction ability Oaths of Moment, which gives all marine armies infinite rerolls all the time against a single target, is weaker than the Eldar detachment ability that gives a single reroll to hit and a single reroll to wound, if the army is built in such a way as to meet the detachment criteria?

 

No, I'm saying Marines with their faction and Detachment rules, plus weapons, are going to be outclassed by the Eldar versions of the same.

 

As are the other factions shown thus far.

[Xenith]

I mean, if the eldar weapons are strong, they will rarely be using rerolls anyway right? And the faction ability allowing you to auto hit and auto wound with stuff...essentially negates the need for these rerolls? Digging into this I'm seeing potential, but not actual synergy or overlap. They're mutually exclusive per a single dice roll. 

 

If I choose to make the roll and take advantage of the reroll, I lose the chance to use a fate dice. If I use a fate dice to autohit, then I'm not exactly going to use the detachment ability to reroll that auto hit. The two do not synergise. 

 

[Zoatibix]

23 minutes ago, Mumeishi said:

But we don’t have points costs…?!… Aeldari could be more expensive perhaps..a smaller force but hard hitting … who knows, I’ll definitely wait till after June before I call in Henny penny  for an air strike 

 

M. 

 

I am hoping that this going to be the case - that Aeldari will be a fairly low model count army, with strong abilities but with commensurate points costs.

 

They are meant to be a high technology race with very small numbers, after all.
 

 

[Captain Idaho]

19 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Thank you.

 

So just to be clear. Every unit getting to re-roll two dice per turn is broken. And every model being potentially able to re-roll every hit roll and wound roll is fine.

 

Seems legit.

 

No, I didn't say that. I said, repeatedly at this point, you are comparing the faction ability to the Detachment ability. I'm comparing Eldar special rules with Marine special rules, including the faction and Detachment abilities but also the Guardian's and Farseer abilities which further exacerbate those abilities whereas the Marines don't. (Captains having been shown, as well as Terminators who do interact with Faction ability but only +1 hits etc good but not the whole army).

 

19 hours ago, Xenith said:

I mean, if the eldar weapons are strong, they will rarely be using rerolls anyway right? And the faction ability allowing you to auto hit and auto wound with stuff...essentially negates the need for these rerolls? Digging into this I'm seeing potential, but not actual synergy or overlap. They're mutually exclusive per a single dice roll. 

 

If I choose to make the roll and take advantage of the reroll, I lose the chance to use a fate dice. If I use a fate dice to autohit, then I'm not exactly going to use the detachment ability to reroll that auto hit. The two do not synergise. 

 

 

Well that's just it, using the Fireprism as a great example. 

 

Fires 2 shots at a vehicle, using a Fate dice and has a spare reroll incase the other 3+ fails. In the wounding step, use another fate dice and another reroll incase the 3+ fails...

 

That's pretty consistent. 

 

Now Guardians with platforms can use their rerolls instead of the big fate dice.

 

We all know that the unit rerolls and fate dice and their generation and manipulation are going to be strong. Objectively we can honestly say any faction that had that would be strong.

 

This pretending it isn't going to be is just bizarre. 

[Shield-Captain]

I didn’t realize that some of the frater here had access to certain oracular devices allowing them to see that Eldar are going to be wildly overpowered.

 

I don’t see how any of the abilities previewed are that much more powerful than any others but I don’t know a whole lot about their playstyles. I do think that 9th is coloring a lot of perceptions of 10th. 

[Karhedron]

35 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

It's an unfair comparison. Not all the Marine units will be attacking the affected unit of Oath of Moment, the Marine weapons aren't as powerful as Eldar weapons generally and Marines won't benefit from Fates like Eldar. 

 

An Eldar army built to take advantage of Fates rerolls will likely have a lot of MSU. An MSU army is the worst target for Oaths of Moment because it ceases to function once the target is destroyed. Fates rerolls cannot be turned off. This means that a Marines/Aeldari matchup is likely to have a degree of asymmetry in the value provided by their respective faction abilities. Of course this may be reflected in the points costs.

 

The other thing to remember is the purpose of OOM. Marines are supposed to be good generalists. They have tools to deal with most common scenarios but natively will probably struggle against powerful targets like Knights that they do not have an easy counter for. OOM is intended to be an equaliser when hunting big game. Against more conventional units (infantry and lighter vehicles) Marines don't really need the extra help. Bolt Rifles still wound Guardians on a 3+ and knock their save down to a 5+.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Shield-Captain said:

I didn’t realize that some of the frater here had access to certain oracular devices allowing them to see that Eldar are going to be wildly overpowered.

 

I don’t see how any of the abilities previewed are that much more powerful than any others but I don’t know a whole lot about their playstyles. I do think that 9th is coloring a lot of perceptions of 10th. 

 

In this case, we are missing a lot of context. Without points values to know just how much stuff each army can put on the table, we will not know exactly how things are going to shake out.

 

However, it is not rocket surgery to determine if certain rules are going to be more or less powerful at face value. Bypassing chance in a game of chance is powerful.

[Slips]

Reason why people are saying that OOM is better than the Eldar Detachment bonus is that, if Eldar want Re-rolls, they NEED to take this detachment for each unit to re-roll ONE to-hit and ONE to-wound.

If Space Marines want re-rolls, well, its their faction ability so they can just take ANY detachment they want and still have re-rolls for ALL failed hits and wounds.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Slips said:

Reason why people are saying that OOM is better than the Eldar Detachment bonus is that, if Eldar want Re-rolls, they NEED to take this detachment for each unit to re-roll ONE to-hit and ONE to-wound.

If Space Marines want re-rolls, well, its their faction ability so they can just take ANY detachment they want and still have re-rolls for ALL failed hits and wounds.

 

That does not have anything to do with the rules' relative power though.

 

If Eldar do take the detachment, they will have their fate dice on top of it, always. If they do not take the detachment, then they do not have the rule anymore and there is nothing to compare.

 

The real question is whether Oath of Moment + some new detachment rule will be stronger than fate dice + unit rerolls. That, we cannot say until the Codex comes out.

[bigtrouble]

I wasn’t making any comparison to Oath of Moment with my comment, but sure…

they’re both powerful, totally different uses, remains to be seen how they will compare.

 

Eldar are going to be frustrating if they are the only faction that can sidestep this much variance. 

 

But yeah, good for them. It’ll be fun to see it start happening soon!

 

[Slips]

From the few Marine datasheets we've seen (like todays Ballistus dread with built-in re-rolls for attacking non-understrength units), I dont think Eldar will be an outlier in ANY way.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Slips

[spessmarine]

Weird, I think the faction ability is more powerful. It is like Miracle Dice but frontloaded enabling immediate effect from turn one. Got ways to get more of them and at least one guaranteed 6 per turn to boot. 
From the beginning of the game you immediately know if the Avatar of Khaine is going to autopass a bunch of invulnerable saves or not. Questionable fun-ness. 

[Xenith]

12 hours ago, spessmarine said:

From the beginning of the game you immediately know if the Avatar of Khaine is going to autopass a bunch of invulnerable saves or not. Questionable fun-ness. 

 

Agree on that, however they are a depleting (albeit slowly replenishing) resource, and the replenishing relies on taking guardians which so far have been poor choices in 7/9 editions of the game. The un-funness is the main issue with all the rerolls and fixed rolls - no dice really means anything anymore - with marines guaranteeing 89%+ accuracy against a unit of their choice, and fixed dice, the random fun element is waning. 

 

Again, it seems GW missed the point when people said random isn't fun:

random warlord traits, relics and psychic powers = not fun as they remove player agency in constructing the army

Randomness in to hit, to wound and saves = fun as they create critical and pivotal points in the battle, where a lucky wound gets through a 2+ save.

Removing random by fixing dice and adding rerolls = removes the above, as the plucky guardsman that wounded the avatar just gets the failed save rerolled away. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

They do seem to have a weird idea of what randomness is and isn't enjoyable. Such as the return of random D6 attack weapons. 

[tzeentch9]

58 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

Again, it seems GW missed the point when people said random isn't fun:

random warlord traits, relics and psychic powers = not fun as they remove player agency in constructing the army

Randomness in to hit, to wound and saves = fun as they create critical and pivotal points in the battle, where a lucky wound gets through a 2+ save.

Removing random by fixing dice and adding rerolls = removes the above, as the plucky guardsman that wounded the avatar just gets the failed save rerolled away. 

Well that’s not everyone’s opinion. Personally I think random warlord traits etc can be fun. Creates something different each time you play and you have to adapt to the altered abilities 

[Xenith]

I agree that in some instances, it's fun (and you can stil ldo this in 9th), however from a roleplaying stance, the option to have my personal character be persistent across games is what I desired.

 

A single random roll was also ok, but I'm thinking back to 6/7th ed, where everything was random, and I had to make 30-40 pregame rolls for my Thousand Sons army, and record what they had each game. It was like creating a couple of new RPG characters before each game, took time away from gaming, increased mental load, and turned the game into a bookkeeping exercise over a wargame.