Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Aeldari

[Zoatibix]

Given that both have a bit of ‘swinginess’ written in, could this be an indication of points for wargear?

 

The Scythe gains in attacks but loses Strength, Range, Damage and Devastating Wounds. It didn’t gain Torrent (it’s sometimes been seen as a ‘flamer’ sort of weapon).

 

And the Aeldari are-roll ability will work very well with the Cannons, while only smoothing out the scythes a bit?

 

(And before some wag claims I’m whining they aren’t broken enough, I see these as good weapons, that should each cost appropriate points.)

[silverstu]

11 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Votann players are expecting points drops because Votann got absolutely rekt by the 10th edition balance pass.

 

If Eldar are sitting at 2300 "9th Ed" points with these rules, I must be looking at 3000 points for my Votann.

Yeah hoping we get to take a lot more Votann for our points this edition, 9th has been such a squeeze to take anything. 

 

9 hours ago, Slips said:

Wraithdar finally worthwile. Now we just need more wraiths if they add more units in an eldar wave of stuff.

 

I always thought they looked pretty impressive -especially form  6th/7th but I wasn't playing at the time. Killer models too. 

[Kallas]

Having thought about it more, I think I do agree that Support Weapon D-Cannons are too good. Devastating Wounds is too effective into everything when it's such a high damage weapon. Still not convinced WWs are broken, but well, I guess we'll see how early 10e shakes out.

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Kallas said:

Having thought about it more, I think I do agree that Support Weapon D-Cannons are too good. Devastating Wounds is too effective into everything when it's such a high damage weapon.

 

I thought I might try crunching some numbers. A battery of 3 D-Cannons will get 6 shots on average. Let's assume they are firing out of LOS so the HEAVY bonus cancels out the indirect fire penalty. That means on average 4 hits. Even before Fate Dice and rerolls, that is an average of 2/3 of getting a 6 which will in turn average to about 4 MWs per shot on T9-15 targets. Slightly higher against infantry. As soon as you add in Fate Dice and rerolls, that goes up significantly. If there is a Farseer nearby, you can pretty much reliably get 2 Critical Wounds which will average 11 MWs.

[Kallas]

I think it's more that D-Cannons are great against heavy targets already (16/-4/d6+2 is fantastic for anti-armour work), even if Devastating Wounds isn't involved. It's vs infantry/hordes that DW comes in: it turns the DCs from great anti-tank into anti-everything.

 

d3 shots, but with Blast they're getting an average of 4 shots each vs a 10-14 strong unit (and even a minimum of 2 shots vs a 5-man squad is good). With Heavy they're hitting on 3s with Indirect, and then the S16 means they're nearly guaranteed to be picking off any medium infantry (eg, Marines, bar Terminators) - and then DW comes in to make them absolutely brutal.

 

3 DCs shooting a 10-man unit of Terminators averages about 12 shots; hitting about 8 times; wounding about 7 times, with 1 Critical. Terminators would then have a 4++, so that's an average of about 3 dead, followed by d6+2 MW (so another Terminator dead at minimum, with another dying on a 4+). This is without Battle Host rerolls and Fate Dice: throw in one or two 6s to wound from Strands and suddenly a lot of Terminators are dying with minimal retaliation. If this is vs a more horde-y unit like Guard or Tyranids, then the mortals are going to plow a massive hole in them.

 

The BS3+ with Heavy is strong to counteract Indirect, and Blast helps them put shots out, but it's the Devastating Wounds that really makes them obnoxious - it removes any good reason to take Shadow Weavers, which just don't do all that much damage vs infantry compared to D-Cannons, even though that's their role; because DW on the DCs lets them rip up big blobs just as well as they tear apart armour.

[Zoatibix]

Ouch. That’s a ridiculous amount of damage against a very broad range of targets. 
 

Would simply removing the DW fix them?

[Ming the Merciless]

I'd restrict fate dice to a maximum one use per phase, fixed.

[Kallas]

20 minutes ago, Zoatibix said:

Would simply removing the DW fix them?

Personally, I think that's all that's needed. Shadow Weavers have DW, but they're not even vaguely busted because they're D1 weapons; it's the d6+2 of the D-Cannon which puts them into ridiculous territory.

 

1 minute ago, Ming the Merciless said:

I'd restrict fate dice to a maximum one use per phase, fixed.

Eh, I don't think it's necessary. Fate Dice don't refill like Miracle Dice, and while we've seen two ways to gain new FD (one Enhancement and Guardian Defenders) they're still relatively rare - definitely powerful, but limited. Probably the strongest part of them is the potential for a heavy alpha strike, which looks way harder in 10e overall, so could definitely skew things - that said, we've also seen Eldar with mostly pretty fragile units: Aspects are still T3/Sv3+/5++; Grav-Tanks are a mighty...T9, which means Meltas and Autocannons wounding on 4s, and Krak Missiles are wounding on 3s; Phoenix Lords have lost a fair bit of their punch and resilience, and so on.

 

There are some units that are resilient (Wraithguard, War Walkers, and the Farseer Fortune buff helps anything), but the faction as a whole still seems to be more on the fragile side of things (which is fine: if they've got a strong alpha strike, they shouldn't be super resilient). Fate Dice could be too strong in their current state, but I think that the limited number of them, plus the hard random element at the start of the game will be a limiting factor: yes Farseers can turn any dice into a 6, but with that being a once per turn ability (and limited by range and the Farseer being a big target for the enemy), there will still be plenty of lower dice rolls that are still useful but not necessarily pumping up the alpha strike - and if someone is able to pump all 12 dice into an early alpha strike, then the fragility of the baseline Eldar models will come into play as Strands won't be able to shore up low Toughness by giving guaranteed 4/5/6s.

[Ming the Merciless]

My thinking was to remove the ability to make a whole bunch of D cannon hits auto devastating wounds. Though rerolling one hit and wound roll per unit is still very strong.

[Kallas]

24 minutes ago, Ming the Merciless said:

My thinking was to remove the ability to make a whole bunch of D cannon hits auto devastating wounds. Though rerolling one hit and wound roll per unit is still very strong.

Sure, but it's the presence of DW that makes DCs great into everything, not Fate Dice. FD on DCs without DW are strong vs armour, but they don't let them slaughter swathes of infantry too, that's only possible because of DW.

 

Devastating Wounds is the outlier in the way that it radically shifts their performance from "extremely strong anti-tank" to "extremely strong anti-everything". Could also possibly argue down removing Blast as well, but honestly I reckon it's just DW that needs to go - with Blast they're still very strong, but still not quite an anti-horde weapon.

[Dr. Clock]

2 hours ago, Kallas said:

Devastating Wounds is the outlier in the way that it radically shifts their performance from "extremely strong anti-tank" to "extremely strong anti-everything". Could also possibly argue down removing Blast as well, but honestly I reckon it's just DW that needs to go - with Blast they're still very strong, but still not quite an anti-horde weapon.

What scenario would work to keep devastating wound, you think?

 

I do feel like distortion are among the most devastating weaponry; it makes sense that a 'critical wound' from one is going to be almost as close to 'click-delete' as you get in the game.

 

I also certainly appreciate that combining re-rolls and Fate shenanigans makes the 'all 6s' spike a bit too easy to achieve, and it produces a few too many mortal wounds.

 

So what if we just put damage down to d3+3 or something? It'd still be a pretty good usage of a Fate 6, but not nearly as big a W dunk as now?

 

Just a thought.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[boblikesoup]

Remember that though Aeldari have Fate dice (an average of x2 6's to spend all game without buffs), they run out, and every other faction also has broken mechanics to make up for it. 

 

Also we don't know the points costs. Maybe D-Cannons will cost a lot. I'm guessing they aren't printing the points costs on the datasheets so they can rebalance things by points costs rather than by editing profiles 

 

Then, too, range 24" and move 3" is going to make it really unlikely to actually hit the targets you most want to. 

 

There is a strong alternative in having a few small cannons of other sorts just used for Suppressive Fire on key targets - it's not all just about the D-Cannons

Edited June 4, 2023 by boblikesoup

[Captain Idaho]

30 minutes ago, boblikesoup said:

Remember that though Aeldari have Fate dice (an average of x2 6's to spend all game without buffs), they run out, and every other faction also has broken mechanics to make up for it. 

 

Each objective held by Guardians generates another Fate die and some told me it this very thread  that Warlocks allow another die to be generated by his attached unit when destroying at target.

 

They also can use Farseers to turn them into a 6 when you need to burn a lower number into a helpful one.

 

I think there'll be plenty of Fate dice to go around.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Dr. Clock said:

I do feel like distortion are among the most devastating weaponry; it makes sense that a 'critical wound' from one is going to be almost as close to 'click-delete' as you get in the game.

Is 16/-4/d6+2 not devastating enough?  Anything short of a vehicle is pretty much guaranteed to die, bar invulns. The reason DW is so problematic is because, even reducing down to d3+3, it bypasses all saves bar FNP, and it makes the weapon effective vs groups of enemies. While D-weapons should absolutely be lethal, I don't think they should be fulfilling the anti-horde niche as well as DW allows them to.

[Zoatibix]

Points cost isn’t really the issue. It’s that they can be so effective into pretty much anything in the game. 
 

It might be short ranged but it is super lethal in an edition that’s meant to be toning down exactly this kind of crazy.

 

Take of the DW and it’s still the kind of deadly anti hard target thing that a technologically advanced race should have.

 

Then give D Scythes Torrent. Because them not having that is just weird.

[prava]

Devastating wounds should never work with anything that can guarantee a 6. It is the only way of not making it instantly broken. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

I am confused. Are multi wound weapons allowed to disperse those wounds across a whole unit, rather than overkilling a model? I.E. if I blast a 1 wound guardsman with something that does 10 damage, do I just obliterate that dude, or do I kill 10 dudes?

[jaxom]

On 6/3/2023 at 5:09 PM, TrawlingCleaner said:

 

Crumbsssss, that's a big datasheet!

BS4+ offsets the damage output but that's still a lot!

Calling it now: Spiritseer will give them +1 to hit.

[Kastor Krieg]

3 minutes ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

I am confused. Are multi wound weapons allowed to disperse those wounds across a whole unit, rather than overkilling a model? I.E. if I blast a 1 wound guardsman with something that does 10 damage, do I just obliterate that dude, or do I kill 10 dudes?

Normal damage does not spill over, only Mortal Wounds do. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

1 minute ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Normal damage does not spill over, only Mortal Wounds do. 

Ahhhh, ok. 
Also, I am completely ok with D Canons obliterating everything.

[Karhedron]

Just now, Ripper.McGuirl said:

I am confused. Are multi wound weapons allowed to disperse those wounds across a whole unit, rather than overkilling a model? I.E. if I blast a 1 wound guardsman with something that does 10 damage, do I just obliterate that dude, or do I kill 10 dudes?

 

Normally they do not. Mortal Wounds however do carry over, hence Kallas's concern. The ability to generate large numbers of MWs makes D-Cannons pretty much an anti-everything weapon. However they are short-ranged, vulnerable to assault in melee and likely to be expensive.

 

Their stats were not entirely dissimilar in 9th (without the MWs) and they were rarely taken. People said the same sort of things about using D-Cannons as Objective-denial units and it didn't happen then either.

[TrawlingCleaner]

14 minutes ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

I am confused. Are multi wound weapons allowed to disperse those wounds across a whole unit, rather than overkilling a model? I.E. if I blast a 1 wound guardsman with something that does 10 damage, do I just obliterate that dude, or do I kill 10 dudes?

 

No, only Mortal Wounds spill over.

If a damage 10 weapon hits a 1 wound model, it can only kill 1 model

[spessmarine]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:49 PM, Rain said:

Calm down guys, historically speaking, Eldar have never had broken units or combos. I’m sure having powerful attacks on top of the ability to sub in preset values for rolls will be just fine. After all, they can’t sub in *every* roll that they make, which means it’s balanced.

 

Time to bring up this classic again, whether it is truly applicable remains to be seen, but here it is

 

[Anticontrarian]

Putting a caveat into Devastating Wounds that stops the Mortals from spilling into additional models would be a relatively benign fix, I think.
Makes the guns way more lethal, but stops them suddenly annihilating more stuff than they would otherwise kill via failed saves.

 

Also, as someone who's long been resisting the urge to buy loads of Wraithguard and War Walkers, my two favourite models in the entire Eldar range, the 10e Datasheets are NOT making it easy!

Edited June 4, 2023 by Anticontrarian

[Khornestar]

Eldrad is here to help you with your limited resource, space elves: