Anyone less excited for 10th than they were?

[TrawlingCleaner]

=][= Nipping that one in the bud, no politics folks =][=

[Azekai]

I think HQ models are being handled in a bizarre and haphazard way this edition. There is no way to predict how any given HQ functions- librarians barely cast spells, but now they buff. Apothecaries, depending on the flavor, may or may not heal. Captains join units but lieutenants don’t. This DG Nurgle daemon Prince grants an FnP aura, but this *other* DG Nurgle daemon Prince doesn’t. There is no consistent or predictive through-Line, and now there is even more to memorize.

[Xanthous]

2 hours ago, Azekai said:

librarians barely cast spells, but now they buff.

The Librarian in Terminator Armour has access to both a psychic ranged attack as well as a psychic buff for his unit, which seems like a decent translation of the roles of psykers to a system that is meant to reduce the unenjoyable nature of psychic powers for a player who doesn't have access to them. While the framing is different, the element of risk to spellcasting is still there with the hazardous smite profile.

 

2 hours ago, Azekai said:

Apothecaries, depending on the flavor, may or may not heal.

I haven't seen a regular Apothecary datasheet, but the Apothecary Biologis got his phd in xenobiology, not medicine. Why would he heal? The Plague Surgeon datasheet indicates that healers are very much still in the game, I can't imagine we'd see something too different on the normal Apothecaries.

 

2 hours ago, Azekai said:

Captains join units but lieutenants don’t.

Assuming you're referring to the Lieutenant with Combi-Weapon, he seems to be the exception, rather than the rule, he's flavoured as a forward scouting lone wolf who doesn't need friends, rather than a regular officer. We've seen a regular Lieutenant datasheet which can, in fact, join a unit alongside a Captain to provide buffs and additional tactical benefits.

 

2 hours ago, Azekai said:

This DG Nurgle daemon Prince grants an FnP aura, but this *other* DG Nurgle daemon Prince doesn’t.

I'll admit I have less to concretely say about this, but it seems to be an attempt to distinguish winged and non-winged princes in their role, the foot prince is geared towards defence with higher toughness and defensive buffs for infantry, whereas the winged prince gets bonuses to close-ranged offence. It's at least not as arbitrary a distinction as you present.

 

To say there is no consistent or predictive through line while drawing upon divergent characters as exemplars of roles that they don't even serve seems perhaps mistaken. Captains still command, librarians still blast and buff, healers still heal. If you've been talking about something other than the examples I've assumed you're talking about, please say so I can be utterly embarrassed about it.

[Azekai]

For psychic spells, the framing is so different they don’t even feel like spells, just a weird self harming gun and a captain-like buff from the old edition.
 

And it seems like you agree that the design for the previewed Lt. is pretty weird.

 

You go in to detail to explain it- they want to differentiate all the various command models, of which there are very, very many. Especially for marines. I get it. I don’t like it, but I get it. It feels strange, at times ill-conceived, but worst of all, it’s anti- streamlining.  
 

Maybe I am just an old man shouting at a cloud, but I have seen almost nothing in the data sheets that look exciting. A lot of it looks like inelegant kludge from a company trying justify a ferocious glut of marine models.

[Magos Takatus]

I'm not sure I like Jetbike Farseers arbitrarily being able to join some units rather than others, or being limited in the powers they are about to select but I was just getting back into playing Ulthwé Aeldari working through my pile of shame so having my pile of old Warlocks and Farseers seemingly vandalised before I even get the chance to paint them is a real motivation killer. Perhaps Seer Council members have their own powers? Perhaps there is no rules for a Seer Council at all? At this point, who knows. At least they didn't get their armour stripped off and their basic BS stat reduced I suppose...

[Kenzaburo]

While agree with several critiques of others, I have a particular nitpick, that's a bit special. After I downloaded the free rules, I flipped through the pdf and was much dismayed when I had to see those lacklustre gaming tables again. Those plain boards with the same weird, unbased ruins thrown on it. This has annoyed me for quite some time. I know what GW is trying to do - shwoing gamers how you can easily do a "good-looking" gaming table or demsonstrate "competitive and balanced" gaming tables. Man, I hate that. 

 

Through all the editions I always loved the cool boards shown in the rulebooks - like huge cathedrals, pumping stations and whatnot - the stuff you nowadays get to see in Warhammer World. That was inspirational. That's what I aspired to. I was also well aware how impossible many of those would be to recreate. Nevertheless, the rulebook is your showcase for how great the game can look, for crying out loud. And GW canned that with 8th or 9th edition. 9th was particularly bad with those same battlemats and the pipes and ad mech ruins over and over again. And now in 10th it's the same. Nothing inspiring - boring battlefields. 

 

That just irks me. And I might be mistaken, but I think they only do that for 40k. I might need to check my AoS rulebook, but I'm pretty sure they got more variation in there than just the Thonidan strongpoint over and over again.

[The Spitehorde]

Even less enthused about it now i've looked at the SM Index. Standard unit (not chapter specific) choices over 4 x that of my World Eaters. So much for reducing bloat!

 

It's almost enough to turn me to drink. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by The Spitehorde
Remove typos

[ZeroWolf]

8 minutes ago, The Spitehorde said:

Even less enthused about it now i've looked at the SM Index. Standard unit (not chapter specific) choices over 4 x that of my World Eaters. So much for reducing bloat!

 

It's almost enough to turn me to drink. 

That's always been the case though? Also makes the most business sense since they're the most popular faction by a good mile. While I expect WE to get more units now they're established (same with Votann) I dont think any faction will surpass SM

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, The Spitehorde said:

Even less enthused about it now i've looked at the SM Index. Standard unit (not chapter specific) choices over 4 x that of my World Eaters. So much for reducing bloat!

 

It's almost enough to turn me to drink. 

 

Yes, but they are effectively forced to use Primaris vehicles. For the love of Khorne, do not ask the monkey's paw for more World Eaters units 

[The Spitehorde]

3 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

That's always been the case though? Also makes the most business sense since they're the most popular faction by a good mile. While I expect WE to get more units now they're established (same with Votann) I dont think any faction will surpass SM

 

Yeah, it has always been the case  (and I first started playing in the Rogue Trader days [/oldfart]) . It just irritates me that GW gives it the big balls about slimming things down, but it then turns out that it's only certain factions that will take the kicking instead of being an across-the-board thing. 

 

I'm just salty about it all 

[Blurf]

15 hours ago, Azekai said:

For psychic spells, the framing is so different they don’t even feel like spells, just a weird self harming gun and a captain-like buff from the old edition.
 

And it seems like you agree that the design for the previewed Lt. is pretty weird.

 

You go in to detail to explain it- they want to differentiate all the various command models, of which there are very, very many. Especially for marines. I get it. I don’t like it, but I get it. It feels strange, at times ill-conceived, but worst of all, it’s anti- streamlining.  
 

Maybe I am just an old man shouting at a cloud, but I have seen almost nothing in the data sheets that look exciting. A lot of it looks like inelegant kludge from a company trying justify a ferocious glut of marine models.

Ultimately, most psykers in 40k use their power as exactly 'a weird self-harming gun and a buff'.

[Tymell]

One thing that's dampening my own eagerness, after looking through the Tyranids and Marines indices, is how every unit now has to have a special rule. I'm not against special rules where warranted to help give a unit some flavour or punch, and I know many units already had some, but it's so awkward how obviously it's a mandated thing now that every unit must have a special rule. For me, it even spoils the impact of those units that genuinely should have special rules to reflect their abilities, because it all feels so forced. To paraphrase The Incredibles: "When everyone's special, no one is."

[Cleon]

18 minutes ago, Tymell said:

One thing that's dampening my own eagerness, after looking through the Tyranids and Marines indices, is how every unit now has to have a special rule. I'm not against special rules where warranted to help give a unit some flavour or punch, and I know many units already had some, but it's so awkward how obviously it's a mandated thing now that every unit must have a special rule. For me, it even spoils the impact of those units that genuinely should have special rules to reflect their abilities, because it all feels so forced. To paraphrase The Incredibles: "When everyone's special, no one is."

I completely agree - the memory load on all these special abilities is also not to be easily discounted. But did we really need different basic abilities for very similar squads?

[Azekai]

1 hour ago, Blurf said:

Ultimately, most psykers in 40k use their power as exactly 'a weird self-harming gun and a buff'.

The point is you get to choose what those attacks or buffs do (the crappy editions had you roll for powers I guess but eh). Psychic powers have historically offered versatility at the cost of the fickleness of the Warp. 

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

I completely agree - the memory load on all these special abilities is also not to be easily discounted. But did we really need different basic abilities for very similar squads?

I think it's so you have a reason to take those squads now, allowing you to play how you want instead of being penalised for taking a unit that is clearly worse than another, especially with the death of the force organisation chart.

[ThePenitentOne]

7 hours ago, The Spitehorde said:

Even less enthused about it now i've looked at the SM Index. Standard unit (not chapter specific) choices over 4 x that of my World Eaters. So much for reducing bloat!

 

It's almost enough to turn me to drink. 

Then multiply those copious generic unit choices by the six detachments that they can access at launch versus your one.

 

Oh... I know what'll cheer you up: at least you won't have to buy a dex for at least a year! /s

[The Spitehorde]

At least a year? You sir, are an optimist. It'll be released mere months before 11th edition drops 

 

 

[ShibeKing]

1 year of waiting for a DE codex, could be worse. I remember hearing the horror stories from the older Archons... going years and years with no new codex.

 

 

Still hate how long it takes for one book to come out.

Edited June 10, 2023 by ShibeKing

[spessmarine]

Not liking all that chaining into mortal wounds going on.

Like with the Hunter, almost guaranteed to hit and against anything with FLY 2/3 of your hits are straight to D6+2 mortal wounds. Two of them and with some okay luck and you can just bully the crap out of things like daemon primarchs.

[Lord_Ikka]

12 hours ago, Tymell said:

One thing that's dampening my own eagerness, after looking through the Tyranids and Marines indices, is how every unit now has to have a special rule. I'm not against special rules where warranted to help give a unit some flavour or punch, and I know many units already had some, but it's so awkward how obviously it's a mandated thing now that every unit must have a special rule. For me, it even spoils the impact of those units that genuinely should have special rules to reflect their abilities, because it all feels so forced. To paraphrase The Incredibles: "When everyone's special, no one is."

True, though it is very clearly designed so that each unit has some sort of niche, rather than being completely lackluster. I don't know if I consider it a good idea/mechanic, but I can see what the initial thought process was- "we have a lot of units that don't really have anything going for them and we want to reduce the mind-load that multiple strategems for individual units create; we put what used to be strats onto the datasheets themselves so that players can quick reference them instead of having to memorize what strat effects what unit." So instead of Gravis armored units having a +1 armor save vs AP 0 weapons strat, now Heavy Intercessors get that baked into their datasheet. 

 

I'll admit, this sort of mechanic seems to make more sense in a game where factions have a lot less units, but the basic design is understandable. Having every unit get some sort of bonus or ability also allows GW to make the former aura abilities less of a balance nightmare in the game- you no longer need a Captain or LT to give out re-rolls and possibly mess up balance because their aura can effect a lot of units, instead you give a targeted unit (like Assault Intercessors) the re-roll that they need to make them more desirable/useful. You can see this in the aura's that we now have- Gulliman no longer gives out any re-rolls to Hit/Wound, instead focusing on tactical play with OC bonuses and changing strat CP to zero, and even the Lion, who is the Imperium's beatstick Primarch, is only giving out a to Hit re-roll on melee, rather than every attack or giving out a FNP, not both. It seems that way with most of the previewed "big" units as well, they aren't giving out multiple aura or selected bonuses in a turn, instead giving out a single bonus aura or targeted buff for a unit.

 

We'll see how it shakes out- I'm not a huge fan of every unit getting something different either, but until I play a few games and get a feel for the datasheets/mechanics in-game I'll try to remain more optimistic. 

[t4ct1c47]

Me and my friend used to play Marines Vs Tyranids. I've got my eye on eBay for some of the Tyranid models on their own as it's his birthday soon. I'm not buying the Leviathan set though as I won't use any of the marines out of it myself. Heresy era exclusively is my bag now as its far far cheaper.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Marine index got me excited again

[Kastor Krieg]

Some of the most stellar models have the most subpar rules (alas, my poor VanVets!  ) or leader options (Sternguard joined only by Primaris? PHTOOEY!). I will stubbornly use old boxdread models with Redemptor rules and Leviathan / Contemptor with their Legends ones.

The general shift of rules is a good direction, but I so wish they were more radical with it. This games needs staggered Bolt Action style initiative like a fish needs water. I will be converting 10ed to play with this kind of initiative, just with the number of order dice in the bag limited by the lower unit-count army for both sides, so that the chances to act are not skewed and the remaining units of MSU armies act last (opposite of the huge skew that Russian / Japanese "horde" lists get in Bolt Action).

[DemonGSides]

Doesn't the box dread still have it's own data sheet?  They just collapsed the venerable data sheet into the regular Dread datasheet now.

[ThePenitentOne]

29 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

The general shift of rules is a good direction, but I so wish they were more radical with it. This games needs staggered Bolt Action style initiative like a fish needs water. I will be converting 10ed to play with this kind of initiative, just with the number of order dice in the bag limited by the lower unit-count army for both sides, so that the chances to act are not skewed and the remaining units of MSU armies act last (opposite of the huge skew that Russian / Japanese "horde" lists get in Bolt Action).

I understand why people like AA, and that's certainly a valid opinion. I like it in Kill Team or Necromunda.

 

But personally, I hate it for 40k. I also don't like watching sports like Hockey, Tennis, Basketball, or Soccer, where it's just turnover after turnover after turnover. I prefer to watch sports like American football where each team has designated possession and works on a drive that consists of multiple plays. Baseball is similar with each team getting a batting round consisting of multiple plays/ at bats.

 

I also think that since 40k has been IGOUGO since it arrived in '87, we'll be having snowball fights in hell before it goes AA. Love it or hate it, IGOUGO has been a consistent part of the game's identity for closing in on 4 decades. Anything different might be fun, but I don't think it would feel like 40k.