Anyone less excited for 10th than they were?

[Waaagh?]

This is the first one I've not been bothered about. I played Heresy alongside 40k in years past but now Heresy is a main game and has more support and folk playing I'm just sticking with that.

The final straw for me was the 9th Chaos book removing tons of weapon and unit options from my Night Lords army that I'd converted all pretty.l

[Noserenda]

Missed the preorder as i was in a field with bad signal, looked around last night when i got back, nobody still selling it with enough discount to justify. Realised i really didnt care. *shrug* 

[Kastor Krieg]

2 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

I understand why people like AA, and that's certainly a valid opinion. I like it in Kill Team or Necromunda.

 

But personally, I hate it for 40k. I also don't like watching sports like Hockey, Tennis, Basketball, or Soccer, where it's just turnover after turnover after turnover. I prefer to watch sports like American football where each team has designated possession and works on a drive that consists of multiple plays. Baseball is similar with each team getting a batting round consisting of multiple plays/ at bats.

 

I also think that since 40k has been IGOUGO since it arrived in '87, we'll be having snowball fights in hell before it goes AA. Love it or hate it, IGOUGO has been a consistent part of the game's identity for closing in on 4 decades. Anything different might be fun, but I don't think it would feel like 40k.

Welp, I love soccer and everything has been IGOUGO forever, it's one of the most antiquated game designs out there. And it's the reason why alpha-strike was such a menace in recent editions. That problem is so bad, that even in the most "balanced" complex game out there, chess, white has obvious advantage. And this is why masters like Bobby Fischer are bored with default, as-good-as-solved chess and push for randomness (random color pawns) or at least playing speed chess.

Your comparison basically comes down to "who steamrolls better wins", because unlike American football or baseball there's no chance at a sudden reversal, interruption, and the opponent to start driving their way. 40k currently plays as if in American football people were allowed to continue driving to touchdown even if they drop the ball or disallowed from hitting the ball with a bat in baseball, just keep scoring as long the pitcher doesn't miss the mark.

It's boring, linear and predictable, it causes 40k to become an excercise at Mathhammer and basically a solved game heavily leaning on list power (and the innate points imbalance - you cannnot "balance" a game this complex on points, "balance" in 40k was, is and will remain absolute fiction - all GW can do is attempt to remove most heinous outliers, and still look at the Eldar now, or all other factions that dominated on release or through editions - Votann, Eldar, Iron Hands, etc).

The only way to mix this up is to introduce uncertainty and the ability for players to utilize their own decision making in more parts of the game than "this unit A statistically removes 50% of this unit B, so my A1 and A2 fire at B1 and the rest is focusing on something else".

Yawnfest 2023. This is my greatest disappointment with the game.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Kastor Krieg

[MegaVolt87]

GW are simplifying the wrong things as far as I am concerned. The new missile primaris get a stack of missile types, but the classic Hellblaster only gets one plasma option now? Also mixing the units moving to legends in these PDF index rules is a bad move. As soon as they will not be in the codex at release, it's going to be a big problem later.

 

If you are looking for a new army for 10th, any xenos faction will be a better choice, the space marines of all stripes are going to be a complete mess in 10th, just wait and see. 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Kastor Krieg said:

The only way to mix this up is to introduce uncertainty and the ability for players to utilize their own decision making in more parts of the game than "this unit A statistically removes 50% of this unit B, so my A1 and A2 fire at B1 and the rest is focusing on something else".

 

I'd say the issue here, is that things became just too consistent, via either too much damage being done, too much mitigation via reroll, or issues of terrain/LOS/movement on smaller boards?

 

IGOUGO certainly has its faults, but its not like the game is unplayable and rote simply by virtue of it, there are many other factors.

[Rain]

38 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

GW are simplifying the wrong things as far as I am concerned. The new missile primaris get a stack of missile types, but the classic Hellblaster only gets one plasma option now? Also mixing the units moving to legends in these PDF index rules is a bad move. As soon as they will not be in the codex at release, it's going to be a big problem later.

 

If you are looking for a new army for 10th, any xenos faction will be a better choice, the space marines of all stripes are going to be a complete mess in 10th, just wait and see. 

 

Yeah it's just bizarre. There were rumors that the FB/Primaris split would be done away with so that anyone could ride in any transport, and anyone could join any unit, but it seems that they doubled down on the nonsense. Apparently FW tanks would be too confusing for new players, but the complete cluster that is the current loyalist Marine index is not. I imagine it would be especially weird to a new player that doesn't really understand or care about the difference between FB and Primaris and just wants to join his shiny Primaris character to his FB unit that he bought because he thought they looked cool. What a mess. Layer on top that doctrines turning your Marines into BA or BT, or whatever, and I don't see how any kid just getting into the hobby is going to cope with the layers of rules, exceptions, replacements, etc.

[Arkhanist]

10 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

Yeah it's just bizarre. There were rumors that the FB/Primaris split would be done away with so that anyone could ride in any transport, and anyone could join any unit, but it seems that they doubled down on the nonsense. Apparently FW tanks would be too confusing for new players, but the complete cluster that is the current loyalist Marine index is not. I imagine it would be especially weird to a new player that doesn't really understand or care about the difference between FB and Primaris and just wants to join his shiny Primaris character to his FB unit that he bought because he thought they looked cool. What a mess. Layer on top that doctrines turning your Marines into BA or BT, or whatever, and I don't see how any kid just getting into the hobby is going to cope with the layers of rules, exceptions, replacements, etc.

 

They'll just stop selling firstborn units, so new players just see the vestigial datasheets and can happily ignore them! Problem solved! :ducks:

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

 

They'll just stop selling firstborn units, so new players just see the vestigial datasheets and can happily ignore them! Problem solved! :ducks:

 

Oh, I think we all know that. Makes perfect sense. So now little Timmy, or Traxton, or whatever people are calling their kids these days, can find out that he can't play with his birthday present at all because instead of being tactical, Space Marines have all instead agreed to focus on intercessing. Bravo GW marketing team. Those London School of Econ MBA's are really paying off 

[Kallas]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Apparently FW tanks would be too confusing for new players, but the complete cluster that is the current loyalist Marine index is not.

Especially things like the Black Templars Marshal datasheet. It's a Captain, but...not. Like, it's exactly a Captain...but it's not. It's got the exact same stats, it's got the exact same keywords as a Primaris Captain but it's got [Marshal] instead of [Captain] and the only difference is...he can have a Combi-Weapon (and Lts/Apoths can't join his unit).

 

Did that need to be a separate datasheet, really? Did the Gladiator datasheets really need a second version just for Black Templars, and not just have a little * note about the Multi-meltas? These Marine Indexes (Indices?) are a joke in how convoluted they are.

 

1 hour ago, Arkhanist said:

They'll just stop selling firstborn units

I mean, they are stopping selling Firstborn units. Some of us have been saying that GW are replacing Firstborn and we keep getting shouted at - and then GW pulls more Firstborn units (eg, Sternguard, a popular unit) and somehow we're still somehow in the wrong 

 

They could have easily moved to consolidate datasheets in these Indexes, they could have seriously moved to actually placate both gorups - Primaris gaining options (that they mostly already have modelling options for; eg, Primaris Thunder Hammers are available, albeit limited in an Intercessor upgrade kit) is hardly a bad thing, and giving Firstborn players the ability to just use their models, without having to hope their rules don't vanish completely, would be beneficial.

 

This whole process has been painful in every way, because they've tried to walk the line of forcing Firstborn out, but not admitting to it. Instead we have this Frankenstein nightmare of an Index, where we have multiple datasheets for the same damn things just because one specific model has a slightly different loadout but is otherwise  identical.

 

2 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Also mixing the units moving to legends in these PDF index rules is a bad move. As soon as they will not be in the codex at release, it's going to be a big problem later.

Actually, I'm guessing that they're not going to reprint the datasheets in the Codex - I think they've said in some places (possibly interviews, possibly WarCom articles, possibly even in-person talks at WHFest - I'm not sure, but I think it's what has been said through the grapevine) that the Codexes will be Detachments and maybe some other stuff. I expect this is probably the case, because it means that:

1. They can just keep selling the Index datasheets and not have to put in any effort in fixing the mess they made
2. They can claim they keep supporting all of the units even as they literally pull the models from shelves
3. They won't have to update the datasheets for balance, they'll just change points or something and call it done

Of course, that's speculative, but it's what I reckon they'll do (/ I think they kind of said they'd do part of that, but I can't remember where/when).

Edited June 12, 2023 by Kallas
Corrected spelling

[Arkangilos]

25 minutes ago, Kallas said:

They could have easily moved to consolidate datasheets in these Indexes, they could have seriously moved to actually placate both gorups - Primaris gaining options (that they mostly already have modelling options for; eg, Primaris Thunder Hammers are available, albeit limited in an Intercessor upgrade kit) is hardly a bad thing, and giving Firstborn players the ability to just use their models, without having to hope their rules don't vanish completely, would be beneficial.

Yeah, honestly intercessors should have been merged in with tactical squads. You can mix in hellblasters, the new missile unit, and the pyro unit for plasma, flamer, and missile launcher. You can add in the heavy bolter from the new Sternguard for the heavy bolter option. Plasma canons could be harder, but it could be the heavy plasma incinerator or whatever (as it has the cord that connects it can be justified as it is drawing from a stronger power source). The melta option is lacking, though. 

Like they have most of the models available. They should just consolidate them. 

[Blindhamster]

34 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Did that need to be a separate datasheet, really? Did the Gladiator datasheets really need a second version just for Black Templars, and not just have a little * note about the Multi-meltas? These Marine Indexes (Indices?) are a joke in how convoluted they are.

im most interested in why exactly armies like templar get to keep unique weapon options on units when blood angels lost melta exclusivity on assault squads (which is okay, its a standard marine weapon), lost heavy flamer exclusivity on tactical/heavy flamers (again, I can accept it, nice for salamanders!) and lost inferno pistols (HOW DARE THEY!). Yet somehow Templars get to keep unique weapon options on their vehicles AND characters, and have an apparently better than assault intercessor battleline squad lol.

[gaurdian31]

Each new thing seems to come with something I dislike. First they came for DG and remove a bunch of rules, then legends all of the Chaos Forgeworld models and now they have smacked SW across the face with the lose of apothecaries and what they did to Wulfen. Hope the WE come out ok. Glad all the index stuff is free. I'll try out 10th, but not sure I will stick around in the game scene with the decisions they are making.

[MegaVolt87]

 

3 hours ago, Kallas said:

Especially things like the Black Templars Marshal datasheet. It's a Captain, but...not. Like, it's exactly a Captain...but it's not. It's got the exact same stats, it's got the exact same keywords as a Primaris Captain but it's got [Marshal] instead of [Captain] and the only difference is...he can have a Combi-Weapon (and Lts/Apoths can't join his unit).

 

Did that need to be a separate datasheet, really? Did the Gladiator datasheets really need a second version just for Black Templars, and not just have a little * note about the Multi-meltas? These Marine Indexes (Indices?) are a joke in how convoluted they are.

 

I mean, they are stopping selling Firstborn units. Some of us have been saying that GW are replacing Firstborn and we keep getting shouted at - and then GW pulls more Firstborn units (eg, Sternguard, a popular unit) and somehow we're still somehow in the wrong 

 

They could have easily moved to consolidate datasheets in these Indexes, they could have seriously moved to actually placate both gorups - Primaris gaining options (that they mostly already have modelling options for; eg, Primaris Thunder Hammers are available, albeit limited in an Intercessor upgrade kit) is hardly a bad thing, and giving Firstborn players the ability to just use their models, without having to hope their rules don't vanish completely, would be beneficial.

 

This whole process has been painful in every way, because they've tried to walk the line of forcing Firstborn out, but not admitting to it. Instead we have this Frankenstein nightmare of an Index, where we have multiple datasheets for the same damn things just because one specific model has a slightly different loadout but is otherwise  identical.

 

Actually, I'm guessing that they're not going to reprint the datasheets in the Codex - I think they've said in some places (possibly interviews, possibly WarCom articles, possibly even in-person talks at WHFest - I'm not sure, but I think it's what has been said through the grapevine) that the Codexes will be Detachments and maybe some other stuff. I expect this is probably the case, because it means that:

1. They can just keep selling the Index datasheets and not have to put in any effort in fixing the mess they made
2. They can claim they keep supporting all of the units even as they literally pull the models from shelves
3. They won't have to update the datasheets for balance, they'll just change points or something and call it done

Of course, that's speculative, but it's what I reckon they'll do (/ I think they kind of said they'd do part of that, but I can't remember where/when).

 

A big part of a codex's value, I believe is the unit sheets. I think GW will be putting the first nail in the coffin of paid rules if unit data sheets are not in a paid codex. While GW has rendered the last few codexes obsolete on release, with day 1 FAQ's, unit cards packs are a waste of money comparatively. The app is decent, and I think worth using with the code redemption. This free PDF of datasheets is a complete disaster, I don't see it staying this way the entire edition. The SM dex releasing first is telling, it would fix this problem sooner rather than later. 

[Aarik]

I'm definitely less excited than I was before GW started releasing the rules and the datasheets.  I'm on board with GW's general stated goal of simplifying the game because I feel like 9th edition definitely became bloated with the various faction and subfaction rules.  But what's killed my excitement is seeing GW make the same mistake across editions without correcting them.  For example, including rules problems in 10th that it/the community already identified in 9th, and that GW patched (e.g., the -1 damage rules in 10th not including the "to a minimum of 1" caveat).  Or just making sloppy mistakes that should have been caught many drafts ago (e.g., the Brutalis Dreadnought having the "Dreadnought" keyword, but the other Primaris dreads missing it).  I don't ever expect perfection, and new rules will always lead to issues that need to be clarified, but I don't think it's too much to ask that GW at least include fixes to known issues that it has already made, and do some basic proofreading.

 

I'm also pretty unhappy that GW consigned Contemptors, Leviathans, Spartans, etc. to Legends, despite the new plastic kits and their statements at release that the models would be usable for 40k.  It's especially annoying because GW included the no-longer-sold Betrayal at Calth contemptor loadout in the SM Index, but inexplicably didn't include the rest of the weapons options from the new plastic kit.  And I don't buy the excuse about balance issues -- SM already have 250 pages of datasheets, but a few more would have been too much? Come on.  One of the main points of paring down faction and subfaction rules was to make the game easier to balance, so that an outlier subfaction's great rules wouldn't either make the model undercosted for them, or overcosted for everyone else.  

[Emperor Ming]

Handing out rules like lethal hits and devastating wounds like candy

 

Will that have a negative effect on balance

 

I guess we will c

[Noserenda]

Of course the  scalpers got plenty of copies...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Games-Workshop-Warhammer-Leviathan-Boxed/dp/B0C6NGZ6DX/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=warhammer+leviathan&qid=1686621689&sprefix=warhammer+le%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-1

[spessmarine]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

 

Yeah it's just bizarre. There were rumors that the FB/Primaris split would be done away with so that anyone could ride in any transport, and anyone could join any unit, but it seems that they doubled down on the nonsense. Apparently FW tanks would be too confusing for new players, but the complete cluster that is the current loyalist Marine index is not. I imagine it would be especially weird to a new player that doesn't really understand or care about the difference between FB and Primaris and just wants to join his shiny Primaris character to his FB unit that he bought because he thought they looked cool. What a mess. Layer on top that doctrines turning your Marines into BA or BT, or whatever, and I don't see how any kid just getting into the hobby is going to cope with the layers of rules, exceptions, replacements, etc.

 

I'll say, seems like a coin toss as to whether you keep all your options or get VanVetted.

Getting demoted from big dog on a big dog to non-character on a big dog means forgetting how weapons work

[Brother Christopher]

I've been holding of for a long time, patiently waiting to see how things will pan out. As such, I refrained from getting hyped up (based on the positive snippets of information or what GW appeared to be implying) or voicing my concerns (about some of my SquatMarine units being deleted and sent off to legends). So, waiting patiently kind of paid off, but only kind of.

 

Right now, I can finally admit that I'm way less excited for 10th. Initially, the new iteration of the game was marketed as a fix to many of 40k's problems. The better understanding I have of it, the more I don't see it helping out that much since GW's mindset doesn't change. The rules may be streamlined in some areas, the core rules look fine (within the ancient IGYG framework) but the design philosophy behind the faction and unit rules remains the same.

 

The release of Space Marine Indexes quite literally broke me. There are things I like there, like the little, flavourful unique rules for each unit, but the Index is overall a mess. It retains a lot of the bloat (with different data sheets for 'the same thing'), introduces awful lot of failures of internal inconsistencies (wargear options! strange limitations on what models can use, taking away options that were always historically available) and clearly shows that SquatMarines are getting replaced or deleted after all (based on the rule team's treatment of Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans or the lack of the Venerable Dreadnought or non-Primaris Sword Brethren data sheets).

 

The Index is half-baked and, in my opinion, requires a fix/patch/faq EVEN BORE THE EDITION IS RELEASED. This is unacceptable video-game-preorder-release nonsense to me.

 

As I remarked before, the Indexes broke me. I'm quite triggered right now, even though I didn't have proper expectations. GW never fails to deliver in this regard. I think I either need some more time to cool off or finally quit a hobby that I've once enjoyed so much.

[Bouargh]

1 hour ago, Brother Christopher said:

The Index is half-baked and, in my opinion, requires a fix/patch/faq EVEN BORE THE EDITION IS RELEASED. This is unacceptable video-game-preorder-release nonsense to me.

 

I would say that unfortunately this is something that looks like a repetitive scheme.

I feel like it happened in a more or lasse same way at last indexes releases (and these ones you had to pay for them), and same at almost each and every codex or codex supplement release. On the first hand, as you said, "half-baked", and seen the pace of codex release it will probably not improve: release rhythm is too elevated to be really compatible with good polishing and Codex volume is too elevated to allow slowing down publishing rhythm unless you squat armies. On the other hand, every single reboot and reset left most of old timers in a state of deception. yet as far as I am comcerned, I feel it less agresively than in prior editions changes. But it is a biased and personal feeling: biaised because I stept out of gaming for almos 3 past Ed and I am alittle bit disconnected, personnal because I am workin hard on my chi (otherwise I would have left already/smashed the door as I left WFB when AoS went out...). 

 

In the end it might be that 10th Ed looks like a great marketting and merchandising move but in terms of rule quality assesment, it is neither better nor worse than 8th and 9th IMHO. Mini wise what we saw so far is a really really good job.

 

My metric (for deception measurment) will be the amount of stuff sent to Legends and the amount of stuff in the current/9th Ed Legends phases out in the warp... Will it break me? Probably not, but once again, I am working on my chi (a lot).

[Captain Idaho]

I must say, the amount of mistakes in the Index books just surrounding Space Marines, requiring FAQ and errata fixes, alongside things like damage reduction NOT stipulating a minimum of 1 or a cap, as well as little things like a Neurotyrant joining a Neurogaunt unit and getting nuked at T3, just makes it clear the game is going to be bogged down within weeks.

 

These cards were championed as super great for cleaning up the game but they'll all be incorrect and already printed OR different to the digitals we just downloaded.

 

Just a hot mess.

 

My friend mentioned GW appear to be doing the video game model of rushing out a product, collecting money and not caring if it works. The difference being, applying fixes and patches to a video game does the heavy lifting for us. Relying on customers to test your product is a terrible thing to do, but the customers in this hobby have to also MANAGE your fixes when they eventually come.

 

I'm tired of 10th edition already and I've not played it yet! 

[Antarius]

I'm rather excited for the new miniatures and looking forward to see how the scenario generation cards and the crusade/campaign system works. I'm not sure I'm going to give the rules a shake, simply because I'm not sure anyone I know really cares to play with them. I think I might go One Page Rules from now on, with whatever additions we can dream up.

I actually don't really have all that much of an opinion on the rules yet, but I'm not really surprised that there are mistakes in the datasheets. I hope/think that people will modify the rules to suit their needs, rather than play with rules they don't like, but that's probaly naive.

[Cpt.Danjou]

I assume we will see a "funny" apology video with the James Workshop dude in a couple of weeks, as no one who is directly in charge will have the spine to do it themselves, and that will be all. It has started to be a trend in the computer game market, releasing sub-par products, and give an apology right after release, we have seen it with Redfall, Cyberpunk, Gollum and more games. And I agree with Captain Idaho, it is we who will do the work fixing and patching it. Buying datasheets, what? If the FAQ and Erratas and change the wording they are already useless, I am not handing GW £20-£30 for something that is broken when I buy them. 

And an apology is not enough, because apologies from companies are as empty as a politicians promises, we spend a lot more on our hobby than we do on a single computer game., and therefor should be compensated accordingly. I feel sorry for the employees at the GW stores because they will take the brunt of the complaints, which probably the devs will not hear or care about. as long as we pay for their little models.

My last hope for the 10th edition is that CSM will be a little competitive, because my other two 2k armies are not playable anymore, DG and SW. I don't care what you GW employees think, we know who you are, who are here defending all critic like it was personal. I play Space wolves not Space marines painted like Space wolves, and I am not interested being target practice for other armies when I play DG, with the amount of devastating wounds, and mortal wounds, T6 don't hack it if you never reach the enemies. "But duh duh you can use Land raiders, rhinos, vindicators etc etc."  Yes I can, but then I am playing CSM with a faint flavour (good lord I don't want to taste that flavour ) of DG. And seriously I don't care what Goonhammer, Tabletop tactics and other bought Influnecers say anymore, if you got the game weeks before release you are bought, period, They are in my world only GWs commercial sandwich boards.  

I was hoping that the 10th edition would light up the flame to get some of the old players in my group to come back and play, so far this spring we have lost more than gained., and no one was interested buying Leviathan.

 

Cpt. Danjou

[appiah4]

19 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

GW are simplifying the wrong things as far as I am concerned. The new missile primaris get a stack of missile types, but the classic Hellblaster only gets one plasma option now? Also mixing the units moving to legends in these PDF index rules is a bad move. As soon as they will not be in the codex at release, it's going to be a big problem later.

 

If you are looking for a new army for 10th, any xenos faction will be a better choice, the space marines of all stripes are going to be a complete mess in 10th, just wait and see. 

They have to sell old stock before the codices drop, you know..

[Karhedron]

I have been generally staying out of this thread to try and keep my positivity up but the massive nerfing that the Space Wolves have received have definitely put a downer on my enthusiasm. Thunderwolves and Wulfen have been kit with the same nerf bat as Van Vets but they are our two most iconic units so it definitely hurts. Our custom flyers are OK-ish but the rules on the Stormraven are just straight-up better. Our Dreadnoughts are still good but since they cannot join units, the Character ones are unlikely to survive to reach combat.

 

The only silver lining is that Grey Hunters can still be taken in squads of 5-10 so at least my Razorbacks are still useful.

[Galron]

I was until recently. New models look nice but I was hoping most of the reroll nonsense was going away. After seeing the marine index, so much for that. Everyone gets rerolls for everything and if they dont give rerolls, they give mortal wounds. Anyone who knows me shouldnt see that as a surprise since I think 2nd and 5th were the high points of 40k and the game hasnt felt the same since. 

 

Really pissed my first born Howling Griffins army has to do major changes. I typically brought two 6 man tacticals for my two Razorbacks while the sternguard rode in a Storm Raven. While the Raven is cool and improved, ill have to figure out something else for my Razors without fundamentally changing the entire army. I dont have any spare rhinos.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Galron