Anyone less excited for 10th than they were?

[Noserenda]

Honestly, as a part time editor myself, its amazing what gets through sometimes when im usually the 4th or 5th person looking at a document but i think the real test is in how they react to those problems, if we see a timely FAQ/Update to the digital files im happy enough with that, though physical card users might be put out, ill probably print my own given their probable RRP and with new codexes not far off.

Its having huge glaring screws ups and ignoring them that grinds my gears.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Noserenda

[Rain]

4 hours ago, appiah4 said:

I'm an INTP-T (Turbulant Logician) on that scale and I thinl that defines me rather well.

Oh, Myers Briggs! Astrology for the modern man. My wife had me take that test, and I was INTP as well. Don’t remember if there was a dash and another letter after it. It’s the nerdy shutin personality, which I could have told you applies without any test 

 

Anyway, reading people arguing about GW’s proofing is funny because for all we know this stuff was written by an overseas third party contractor staffed by ESL folks with degrees/certs they bought online without ever taking an actual course. I know of a large company that outsources work that really shouldn’t be outsourced, including copywriting. The crap product then needs to be cleaned up by US teams, wasting more money than just having the US team do it from scratch, and still inevitably leaving issues in the Frankenstein final product; but you try telling that to the MBA’s.

[Arkhanist]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

@Arkhanist I would say that without the game, the miniatures wouldn't be bought in even a quarter of the number. My entire gaming group just up and wouldn't buy more than a handful instead of armies across different games.

 

If the game is flawed, people are less likely to play. If they're less likely to play, they're less likely to buy.

 

I agree with you entirely, but given they've effectively just AoSified the 40k points system (fixed unit sizes and no granular weapons) I'd say GW is looking to test-to-destruction if people will still buy minis with a highly flawed game behind it...

Edited June 16, 2023 by Arkhanist

[Scribe]

I need to escalate through the stages of grief faster, 40K just isnt going to go back to what I want ever at this point.

[Oxydo]

Welp.

[Warhead01]

9 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I need to escalate through the stages of grief faster, 40K just isnt going to go back to what I want ever at this point.

Very much agree. The edition I want to play doesn't seem to exist at this point.  I'd be happy to play other editions but that's not likely to happen. The only reason I see to play a new edition is to play with a new pool of players. If that's even a good reason to move on to any new edition.   Better rules? Not really just more people, maybe. Blaaaaa. 

[Captain Idaho]

22 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

 

I agree with you entirely, but given they've effectively just AoSified the 40k points system (fixed unit sizes and no granular weapons) I'd say GW is looking to test-to-destruction if people will still buy minis with a highly flawed game behind it...

 

I think you might be right.

 

Still, I was gonna buy 2 Vindicators and 10 Assault Marines... not now.

[Azekai]

20 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

Editing and proofreading is tough, trust me, and it's hard work to catch everything. Things like tracking changes through iterations mean that files often get a bit messy, esoeiclat as different teams and individuals will be involved. Projects are hard, they are so hard - nevermind a project with 1000s (actually tens of thousands) of individual bits of text to be checked. 

 

God, "didn't even care". Can we avoid such pointless exaggerations, accept that actually this is hard work, not easy, ever.

This take strikes me as absurd. It shouldn’t be that that hard *if it is your job.* If it is proving beyond GW’s ability to make rules for all the minis they churn out, maybe they should figure out how to *actually* streamline rather than this copypasted nightmare of kludge that we have on our hands.  

We don’t owe them sympathy for turning out a sub par mess of a product. And before people start saying ‘it’s free! It’s ok if it’s bad!’ Well, that’s crappy for them to make any product without putting in the effort, but also, and more importantly: this is people’s first introduction to the system. It needs to be strong. It needs to be tight. If it isn’t, it will likely alienate people for the next few years.

 

8th actually did a good job of this- it generated a lot of interest and roped in a lot of people. I doubt that lightning will strike twice with 10th.

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, Azekai said:

If it is proving beyond GW’s ability to make rules for all the minis they churn out, maybe they should figure out how to *actually* streamline rather than this copypasted nightmare of kludge that we have on our hands.  

Not to mention that they added to their own burden by adding more duplicate datasheets (that would also require proof-reading) instead of consolidating datasheets (eg, Gladiators and BT Gladiators: yes, they're near identical, which makes skimming over them much more likely, but still requires time and energy to check in case; or all of the many Lieutenants that...need to exist, apparently).

[Rain]

8 minutes ago, Azekai said:

This take strikes me as absurd. It shouldn’t be that that hard *if it is your job.* If it is proving beyond GW’s ability to make rules for all the minis they churn out, maybe they should figure out how to *actually* streamline rather than this copypasted nightmare of kludge that we have on our hands.  

We don’t owe them sympathy for turning out a sub par mess of a product. And before people start saying ‘it’s free! It’s ok if it’s bad!’ Well, that’s crappy for them to make any product without putting in the effort, but also, and more importantly: this is people’s first introduction to the system. It needs to be strong. It needs to be tight. If it isn’t, it will likely alienate people for the next few years.

 

8th actually did a good job of this- it generated a lot of interest and roped in a lot of people. I doubt that lightning will strike twice with 10th.

Also, nothing made by a publicly traded company is “free” and it’s naive to think that it is. It’s effectively meant as advertising for their models. They know that model sales depend in part on rules, so they need to bridge the gap. The rules and points costs alone have no value or use unless one had models. Codexes at least have lore and art, this is purely supporting material for models with no value of its own, and given for “free” to induce purchase of the actual product, much like traditional advertising.

[appiah4]

Part of me thinks they just may be stupid enough to make the indices this bad on purpose to incentivise buying codices. There is no level of stupidity (or malice for that matter) I would say GW is incapable of anymore..

[Scribe]

53 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

Part of me thinks they just may be stupid enough to make the indices this bad on purpose to incentivise buying codices. There is no level of stupidity (or malice for that matter) I would say GW is incapable of anymore..

 

It cannot be that. They would have dramatically different power level/balance, and it would just lead to a train wreck in terms of FAQ's and 'Update Packets'.

 

Without an update before Codex cycle begins, its this.

[Noserenda]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Also, nothing made by a publicly traded company is “free” and it’s naive to think that it is. It’s effectively meant as advertising for their models. They know that model sales depend in part on rules, so they need to bridge the gap. The rules and points costs alone have no value or use unless one had models. Codexes at least have lore and art, this is purely supporting material for models with no value of its own, and given for “free” to induce purchase of the actual product, much like traditional advertising.

Essentially this, the entire "game" part of GW is marketing for the minis

[Lexington]

Well, it'll definitely be exciting to watch how the competitive/tournament scene deals with 10th "Oops, All Power Levels" Edition, and see if it collapses/forces GW to pull a 180 on this like they did with AoS' initial balance schema.

[Scribe]

As I dig around a bit in my pile (closet) of shame, I just cannot get over the fact that this is what the index points are today, but there is literally 0 reason to believe this is what they will be in a week, a month, a year.

 

Without the granularity, the potential for swings in unit cost just means your list is at the whims of GW not just 'a meltabomb here, a Power Weapon there' but full units.

 

Maybe those of you who played 9th are cool with that, but when a unit of GSC troops is $65, but is only 80 points...yikes. Boyz are no better really at 85 points and $65.

 

I dont know, fill up on big models maybe, but I bet if I looked, there is more relationship between $ and Points, than combat effectiveness and Points...

[Cleon]

Half a lifetime ago I used to be a Test Analyst. One of the things you do is sample check for quality. Assuming you have someone who cares and knows anything about the game in the quality control team, one of the first simple checks would be 'grab all the Rhino cards, are they consistent' if the answer is 'hell no, someone has half arsed updates and copy pasted half rules all over the place.' then you raise a defect and do more tests. 

[Arkhanist]

19 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Half a lifetime ago I used to be a Test Analyst. One of the things you do is sample check for quality. Assuming you have someone who cares and knows anything about the game in the quality control team, one of the first simple checks would be 'grab all the Rhino cards, are they consistent' if the answer is 'hell no, someone has half arsed updates and copy pasted half rules all over the place.' then you raise a defect and do more tests. 

 

You assume they have a quality control department for the rules, as opposed to an intern and a pot of coffee. Right now, I'm thinking they made the coffee too strong.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

I’ve been on a bit of a roller coaster wrt my disappointment vs lack thereof. The core rules I’m fairly happy with—it permitted a level of granularity with individual unit weapons. 
 

Then, they nuked combi-weapons, and proceeded to nuke a lot of individual options on a lot of data sheets. The marines index didn’t help.
 

But the Necrons Index, now this was an army that had been designed with ‘we’re not going ANYWHERE’ in mind! There isn’t a single unit I wouldn’t mind fielding.
 

But then points today just leaves me disappointed. Monoliths are nearly 400 points, Szarekh is almost a quarter of an army at a mind-boggling 470 points. I can’t have granularity with my units anymore—no knocking off a warrior or three to save points to bring another squad of scarabs, for instance. Nobody pays for wargear except enhancements anymore, which is just…disappointing. If I wanted to play a game where I didn’t have to think about wargear I’d go play Legion or that new Shatterpoint game. Currently making serious considerations at porting over to either heresy, or third, depending on the army. 
 

Or just starting a custom rule document for Firstborn marines, assuming anybody would let me use it. 

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Lexington said:

Well, it'll definitely be exciting to watch how the competitive/tournament scene deals with 10th "Oops, All Power Levels" Edition, and see if it collapses/forces GW to pull a 180 on this like they did with AoS' initial balance schema.

 

You can bet it will be the most degenerate, spammy lists possible. They want to win, so they go with what is best.

 

The first tournaments after the 24th are going to be wild.

[Blurf]

1 hour ago, Lexington said:

Well, it'll definitely be exciting to watch how the competitive/tournament scene deals with 10th "Oops, All Power Levels" Edition, and see if it collapses/forces GW to pull a 180 on this like they did with AoS' initial balance schema.

There are maybe 3-4 armies that can compete with Marines (any flavor), and several armies that...honestly don't even really need to exist anymore.

[spessmarine]

38 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

You can bet it will be the most degenerate, spammy lists possible. They want to win, so they go with what is best.

 

The first tournaments after the 24th are going to be wild.

And all units will be costed accordingly, costed as if you did take as many hammers as possible or whatever weapon edges out the rest. 

[Blurf]

12 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

And all units will be costed accordingly, costed as if you did take as many hammers as possible or whatever weapon edges out the rest. 

Tell that to Devastator Marines. 10pts cheaper than Retributors despite double the stats and the BETTER weapon options.

[Interrogator Stobz]

The points might be bad,

the proofreading might be bad,

the consistency might be bad,

the AoSing of units might be bad,

the inability of units to fit into transports properly might be bad,

the ruining of Combi-weapons might be bad,

but at least I have to wait until next week, after the official release to see how the rules for my 23 freshly  Legendized units will look.

 

Sitting on the Shelves forever with good rules will be sooo much cooler than Sitting on the Shelves forever with weak rules.

 

Thanks GeeDub, you have entirely ruined the game for me.

[Scribe]

Need a sad emoji.

[Doghouse]

17 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

The points might be bad,

the proofreading might be bad,

the consistency might be bad,

the AoSing of units might be bad,

the inability of units to fit into transports properly might be bad,

the ruining of Combi-weapons might be bad,

but at least I have to wait until next week, after the official release to see how the rules for my 23 freshly  Legendized units will look.

 

Sitting on the Shelves forever with good rules will be sooo much cooler than Sitting on the Shelves forever with weak rules.

 

Thanks GeeDub, you have entirely ruined the game for me.

 

Chin up, at least they haven't shattered the universe into separate realms overwriting all the existing lore...yet.

 

Bet they bring the Emperor back.