Full Primaris companies in the UM chapter a fallacy?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I'm not here to re-ignite the Primaris/Legacy Space Marine debate. I know there are 2 camps and none of those on either side are changing their positions. However, from a fluff perspective.. are any of the UM companies of notoriety (IMO that would be 1st-4th) actually fully Primaris? I'm fairly curious because I have a hard time believing that in the current setting any of those companies has 0 legacy SM assets, i.e. tanks, dreadnoughts, flyers, land speeders, bikes, etc. Now, I can see a reserve company having full Primaris ranks, but it's very hard for me to imagine that in a 1st founding chapter like the UM their battleline companies are completely Primaris right now. 

My overall assumption, and my main point is if one (myself) wanted to a have a fluffy full company, it would make sense to have a few legacy SM units in my army collection? I would like to have a full 3rd company that is just as much a representative collection as it is something that I game with as my main SM army. 

[lansalt]

The Indomitus era UM fluff is all over the place, but IIRC, companies changed significantly over the crusade, as many got decimated just before or even went missing afterwards like the 2nd company under Sicarius that was redone with a mix of primaris and firsborn (as seen in the 8th codex). So having old marine units it's fine and fluffy.

 

It would be nice to have a list of sources about each UM company whereabouts during indomitus and the Plague Wars.

 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

GW has been pretty vague about what is in each company now, and IMO its intentional. Because they want people to collect what makes sense to them. If you feel that they should have legacy units, then go for it. The risk is that you might get something that switches to legends, but with sternguard & terminators being upscaled I don't think you have too much to worry about if you stick with more popular units.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Tacitus]

Plausible but improbable.  Most Space Marines get to be a couple hundred years old - especially the veteran ones.  I don't think we've gone a couple hundred years since Primaris were introduced.  One could argue that the Indomitus Campaign and Seige of Nurgle could have increased that tempo, but meh. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

8 hours ago, lansalt said:

The Indomitus era UM fluff is all over the place, but IIRC, companies changed significantly over the crusade, as many got decimated just before or even went missing afterwards like the 2nd company under Sicarius that was redone with a mix of primaris and firsborn (as seen in the 8th codex). So having old marine units it's fine and fluffy.

 

It would be nice to have a list of sources about each UM company whereabouts during indomitus and the Plague Wars.

 

 

I find your response kind of odd. You say fine and fluffy, but what I'm more or less arguing is shouldn't that be the standard as far as the fluff is concerned? I know the fluff is all over the place, but it's always been that way hasn't it? The writers artistic freedom allows them to do alot of things with the story and it doesn't appear like there is a lot of continuity. 

 

8 hours ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

GW has been pretty vague about what is in each company now, and IMO its intentional. Because they want people to collect what makes sense to them. If you feel that they should have legacy units, then go for it. The risk is that you might get something that switches to legends, but with sternguard & terminators being upscaled I don't think you have too much to worry about if you stick with more popular units.

 

Maybe my point wasn't communicated well in the IP, but I don't feel the need to have what's in my collection justified. As I was attempting to argue, full primaris armies outside of second founding chapters (which I can understand being full primaris) just doesn't make a lot of sense in the current fluff timeline. 

 

49 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Plausible but improbable.  Most Space Marines get to be a couple hundred years old - especially the veteran ones.  I don't think we've gone a couple hundred years since Primaris were introduced.  One could argue that the Indomitus Campaign and Seige of Nurgle could have increased that tempo, but meh. 

 

Plausible but improbable that there would be Primaris only companies or that there would be a mix of both? 

[lansalt]

4 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I find your response kind of odd. You say fine and fluffy, but what I'm more or less arguing is shouldn't that be the standard as far as the fluff is concerned? I know the fluff is all over the place, but it's always been that way hasn't it? The writers artistic freedom allows them to do alot of things with the story and it doesn't appear like there is a lot of continuity. 

 

Well, what I was trying to say is that the lore pretty much pushes for current UM companies still being a mix of new and old marines, with no primaris only companies between the classic ten. IIRC only a supernumerary and upsized 11th company made up of primaris greyshields existed that apparently isn't around anymore by the end of the Plague Wars (Possibly used to patch losses in the others).

[Captain Idaho]

With the difference between Firstborn and Primaris being lessened in the fluff, it's an interesting idea whether Chapters that have large legacy wargear utilise Primaris and Firstborn recruits.

 

If the quality of new things is sufficient to not need the old stuff, as well as in good supply, then it wouldn't make sense to recruit new Ultramarines as Firstborn. 

 

However, the legacy stuff are substantial assets to the Chapter therefore if there are issues with fitting the larger Astartes in or utilising them, it makes sense to recruit Firstborn too.

 

Likely they'd say it was an honour as Marines revere the past. Even possible the best recruits earn the right to be Firstborn. 

 

That's hypothetical of course. 

 

But there's another issue there... GW have reduced the differences between the Firstborn and Primaris Marines, in novels and appears models too. The size can't be much different as there's a Primaris Sternguard wearing a MK7 helmet, unless of course we're seriously saying Primaris are 50% bigger than Firstborn but have tiny little heads comparatively!

 

So going on the basis Primaris are as different to Firstborn as a 5'10 person to a 6'1 person, it now no longer makes sense to recruit Firstborn anymore, but the company make up would see Tactical Marines and Assault Marines etc as normal.

 

Note I'm 6'1 and have a friend 5'10. I'm also heavy set and I do tower over him in size and mass, so I think that difference is accurately feasible.

 

It's possible Primaris are 50% bigger, but wearing a MK7 Helm indicates otherwise.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Bloody Legionnaire]

5 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

With the difference between Firstborn and Primaris being lessened in the fluff, it's an interesting idea whether Chapters that have large legacy wargear utilise Primaris and Firstborn recruits.

 

If the quality of new things is sufficient to not need the old stuff, as well as in good supply, then it wouldn't make sense to recruit new Ultramarines as Firstborn. 

 

However, the legacy stuff are substantial assets to the Chapter therefore if there are issues with fitting the larger Astartes in or utilising them, it makes sense to recruit Firstborn too.

 

Likely they'd say it was an honour as Marines revere the past. Even possible the best recruits earn the right to be Firstborn. 

 

That's hypothetical of course. 

 

But there's another issue there... GW have reduced the differences between the Firstborn and Primaris Marines, in novels and appears models too. The size can't be much different as there's a Primaris Sternguard wearing a MK7 helmet, unless of course we're seriously saying Primaris are 50% bigger than Firstborn but have tiny little heads comparatively!

 

So going on the basis Primaris are as different to Firstborn as a 5'10 person to a 6'1 person, it now no longer makes sense to recruit Firstborn anymore, but the company make up would see Tactical Marines and Assault Marines etc as normal.

 

Note I'm 6'1 and have a friend 5'1. I'm also heavy set and I do tower over him in size and mass, so I think that difference is accurately feasible.

 

It's possible Primaris are 50% bigger, but wearing a MK7 Helm indicates otherwise.

 

Everything you said makes sense for the narrative going forward. I expect as the timeline continues we may see your breakdown play out. Maybe I'm just not as knowledgeable in the fluff, but in my mind we  just haven't gotten that far yet where I'd expect to see that the majority of the legacy SM have been killed off and have been replaced by Primaris counterparts. I'm imaging at minimum you still have a handful of squads in a company that are legacy SMs. Be they tactical, close support, or devastator. 

I've heard numerous times the descriptions of Primaris marines vs legacy SM in fluff do not portray as drastic a difference between the two as the models appear to represent. Maybe that is the reason some of the equipment is interchangeable. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Bloody Legionnaire - I didn't do a good job of explaining myself. I should have stated that GW IMO doesn't want there to be a consensus for what is a fluffy company. I agree with you that most forces should be mixed. That said it's an opinion and I'm not going to say someone's army is unfluffy because they disagree with that.  

 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Ahhh, I'm tracking now. I can see that

[Captain Idaho]

9 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

Everything you said makes sense for the narrative going forward. I expect as the timeline continues we may see your breakdown play out. Maybe I'm just not as knowledgeable in the fluff, but in my mind we  just haven't gotten that far yet where I'd expect to see that the majority of the legacy SM have been killed off and have been replaced by Primaris counterparts. I'm imaging at minimum you still have a handful of squads in a company that are legacy SMs. Be they tactical, close support, or devastator. 

I've heard numerous times the descriptions of Primaris marines vs legacy SM in fluff do not portray as drastic a difference between the two as the models appear to represent. Maybe that is the reason some of the equipment is interchangeable. 

 

I think that's a good point; we haven't gone as far in the background lately. A few years is it? Originally it was like 100 years or so, but that has been amended.

 

To be honest I have no idea where we are with it anyway.

 

So likely on that basis of a few years gone by, it's unlikely there's going to be more than 50% of the Chapter being Primaris at the current stage.

 

It is definitely fine for players to represent their companies as whatever they want of course. It's all good regardless of fluff.

[MegaVolt87]

The new terminator release + Levi fleet strikes back doesn't hit the same because Calgar crossed the Rubicon, isn't in his OG termi suit as a firstborn. I would have liked to see a new named 1st captain step up that was still firstborn. New 40k lore re-treading old lore points, its just not being done well. Even if it was a different hive fleet, that would have been good enough to still make it interesting and fresh. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by MegaVolt87

[Tacitus]

On 5/20/2023 at 9:08 PM, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

Maybe my point wasn't communicated well in the IP, but I don't feel the need to have what's in my collection justified. As I was attempting to argue, full primaris armies outside of second founding chapters (which I can understand being full primaris) just doesn't make a lot of sense in the current fluff timeline. 

 

 

Plausible but improbable that there would be Primaris only companies or that there would be a mix of both? 

I assume you mean Ultima Founding?

 

Its plausible there would be, but it unlikely outside of a few chapters.  Blood Angels (and successors) could theoretically have a fully Primaris company here and there after the Devastation of Baal.  Ultras after doing double duty in Ultramar vs Morty and "spearheading" the Ultima crusade...  I could see Crimson Fists having a route to get there too.   As mentioned most Marines live to be a couple hundred years old.  You'd have to have a pretty hefty casaulty creator in the fluff - or some sort of Dark Angel segregation - to finagle your way around that.  "The UM First company was decimated, doing double duty, and pulled a lot of veterans from the 2nd-5th to replenish - leaving the 4th company entirely Primaris."  "The Crimson Fists finally recovered from the loss of so many in that infamous Ork assault, and a lot of their Indomitus reinforcements went into creating their entirely Primaris 3rd company"  The problem with the fluff here isn't that there aren't enough primaris to make the company, its how the Firstborn got out of the company. 

[Tacitus]

21 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

 

It's possible Primaris are 50% bigger, but wearing a MK7 Helm indicates otherwise.

Also bear in mind Abby was a First Born, and he's practically primarch sized even among the first born there are size differences. 

[Captain Idaho]

True there are bigger Firstborn, though I didn't think Abaddon was that much larger?

 

Regardless we have Pasanius as an example. He was so big he needed reconstituted Terminator armour to help him be armoured, indicating size does matter.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

True there are bigger Firstborn, though I didn't think Abaddon was that much larger?

 

Regardless we have Pasanius as an example. He was so big he needed reconstituted Terminator armour to help him be armoured, indicating size does matter.

 

He is now in MKX without being Primaris.

[Captain Idaho]

Good point. Which indicates he cannot fit into (thus Primaris can't) into MK8 and lower.

 

A little conflicting really, as Primaris Sternguard with a MK7 helmet indicates they're the same size.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I assume you mean Ultima Founding?

 

Its plausible there would be, but it unlikely outside of a few chapters.  Blood Angels (and successors) could theoretically have a fully Primaris company here and there after the Devastation of Baal.  Ultras after doing double duty in Ultramar vs Morty and "spearheading" the Ultima crusade...  I could see Crimson Fists having a route to get there too.   As mentioned most Marines live to be a couple hundred years old.  You'd have to have a pretty hefty casaulty creator in the fluff - or some sort of Dark Angel segregation - to finagle your way around that.  "The UM First company was decimated, doing double duty, and pulled a lot of veterans from the 2nd-5th to replenish - leaving the 4th company entirely Primaris."  "The Crimson Fists finally recovered from the loss of so many in that infamous Ork assault, and a lot of their Indomitus reinforcements went into creating their entirely Primaris 3rd company"  The problem with the fluff here isn't that there aren't enough primaris to make the company, its how the Firstborn got out of the company. 

 

How accurate is that though? I haven't read the book, but from what i've read on the 'ol interwebnets Uriel Ventris was rolling around with a group of legacy SM command squad and not Primaris. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[lansalt]

You are correct, that's how the 4th company is depicted in The Swords of Calth

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

How accurate is that though? I haven't read the book, but from what i've read on the 'ol interwebnets Uriel Ventris was rolling around with a group of legacy SM command squad and not Primaris. 

That's someone else's cannon, and a specific example - I meant that in a more general sense.  Ventris and company will likely always be mixed because too many of the supporting characters are locked into Firstborn roles/characteristics.  But pretend Ventris and key members of his company aren't Book Marines then apply the logic. 

[Gamiel]

Re. helmet sizes do i think GW from the start have siad that helmets, pauldrons and some other parts are the same size across the armour mark range both the really old ones and hte new primaris ones. 

 

On 5/21/2023 at 11:55 AM, Captain Idaho said:

, unless of course we're seriously saying Primaris are 50% bigger than Firstborn but have tiny little heads comparatively!

To my understanding are they taller, but not so much wider. So their head's don't look any tinyer than classic SM's if you look at them from the shoulders up.

 

[Tacitus]

I wonder if that explains why Azrael can wear the Lion Helm... 

[Captain Idaho]

2 hours ago, Gamiel said:

Re. helmet sizes do i think GW from the start have siad that helmets, pauldrons and some other parts are the same size across the armour mark range both the really old ones and hte new primaris ones. 

 

To my understanding are they taller, but not so much wider. So their head's don't look any tinyer than classic SM's if you look at them from the shoulders up.

 

 

I think you're right there. I get an impression from models and the like that Firstborn Marines are very stocky in appearance. Primaris models are more modern and proportionate in some ways.

 

That could transfer to "real life".