Sternguard and Combi-Weapons

[L30n1d4s]

I saw another thread bemoaning Combi-weapons in 10th, and how they are too "dumbed down"/not versatile enough and, after thinking about it a bit, I have a hunch that Sternguard (with Combi-Weapons of course) are going to be the anti-elite infantry hunters for the Astartes.

 

Think about it... Anti-Infantry 4+, Devastating Wounds, and Rapid Fire 1... even if they are BS4+ ( and I suspect Sternguard might get BS3+ on their Combi-Weapons, to represent their status as elite ranged units), if you drop Oath of Moment on, say, a squad of Blightlord Termies, then have 10 Sternguard coming out of a Drop Pod at 11" away, the SG get 20 shots, about 15 hits with full rerolls, then about 12 x 4+s to wound (again, using full rerolls), which translates to 12 MWs, or 4 dead Blightlords, bypassing their T6, 2+/4++.

 

Put another way, Sternguard with Combi-Weapons are the SM method of generating a lot of MWs against tough infantry models, whether that is Necron Lychguard, Tyranid Genestealers, Ork Mega Nobz, Gravis Marines, Wraithguard, Ogryn, celestian Sacresants, or even big heroes like Abaddon or Ghazkhul or Eldar Phoenix Lord's in the open.

 

While I get why people are sad pandas about not being able to get the specific "skills" of massed combi-meltas, combi-flamers, etc. I have actually come around to Sternguard playing a new (and pretty cool) role as the Elite infantry hunters of the army (which is also pretty fluffy for them, I think).

Edited May 26, 2023 by L30n1d4s

[Karhedron]

I think you might be right. While different from what came before, it is still a valid niche.

 

I don't know if we will get full combi-weapon squads though. The new Primaris version comes with 2 combi weapons, 2 bolters and a heavy bolter. We will have to see what this looks like on the datasheet.

[Captain Idaho]

The niche could be substantial in avoiding elite infantry with good invulnerable saves. We have to wait and see what units each army gets, as so far it's just Terminators we know they'd have some use with.

[Karhedron]

Off the top of my head, Terminators (all flavours), Meganobz, Wraithguard, Custodians, Sword-n-board Lycheguard, Hearthguard, possibly BGVs (if their Storm Shields still provide an invuln), Tau Battlesuits. That's a pretty decent selection and they are likely to be the sort of units the enemy is using to contest the mid-field.

 

Someone commented that they couldn't see a use for Sternguard that could not be met by Hellblasters but now we have more information on HAZARDOUS weapons, I disagree, Hazardous now rolls separately to the Hit roll meaning that even if you have rerolls to hit from something like OOM, that is no longer any protection against your plasma guns overheating.

 

Of course we still have a lot to see but I am cautiously optimistic that Sternguard will be a good choice.

[Kallas]

8 hours ago, L30n1d4s said:

I have a hunch that Sternguard (with Combi-Weapons of course) are going to be the anti-elite infantry hunters for the Astartes.

AI4+/DW is not much more effective than Plasma or Melta for anti-elite work.

 

8 hours ago, L30n1d4s said:

if you drop Oath of Moment

And if you drop OOM on a target, all of the competing weapons also get better...

 

8 hours ago, L30n1d4s said:

While I get why people are sad pandas about not being able to get the specific "skills" of massed combi-meltas, combi-flamers, etc. I have actually come around to Sternguard playing a new (and pretty cool) role as the Elite infantry hunters of the army (which is also pretty fluffy for them, I think).

If it were an entirely different weapon I'd agree. But this is still taking existing weapons and making them something entirely different to what they are supposed to be.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It is making them different, but at least they have a pretty well defined role. It's very clear they intend them to still be good at hitting elite infantry, but don't want you making little tank hunting squads out of Sternguard/Chosen/etc.

 

Is that what I wanted them to do? Probably not, but they call the shots and that's what they decided to do. It's at least clear what they're doing, so I'm not losing any sleep from there.

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

at least they have a pretty well defined role

Is that not the point of differentiating between Plasma, Melta, Flamers and Grav? To give them a defined role?

[WrathOfTheLion]

8 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Is that not the point of differentiating between Plasma, Melta, Flamers and Grav? To give them a defined role?

The gun still has a well defined purpose. We can clearly tell it's useful against elite infantry. I was not unclear in what I said.

Edited May 26, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

The gun still has a well defined purpose.

Right, but isn't that the purpose of a Plasma Gun too? So what's the point in making another weapon for the same role when it's literally already available?

 

It's making a distinction for the sake of making a distinction, while also removing the WYSIWYG element of what models actually have.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Just now, Kallas said:

Right, but isn't that the purpose of a Plasma Gun too? So what's the point in making another weapon for the same role when it's literally already available?

 

It's making a distinction for the sake of making a distinction, while also removing the WYSIWYG element of what models actually have.

Look, I'll be more direct this time. I said this is what they did and described it. That doesn't mean I agree with it, I made an observational statement, which since the decision was already made by their rules team, is the only thing I care about.

[Kallas]

Right, but they're making each weapon have a purpose, and the purpose of Combi-Weapons is anti-elite infantry. Which is also the purpose of Plasma Guns.

 

That's also an observational statement. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Sure. My point was that they also clearly intended them to not be useful against vehicles. Whether we like that or not is irrelevant, but that's how it is.

 

The other purpose in their mind is the modeling aspect. They never include enough of a combi-weapon to kit the squad out, and I believe it's obvious they want it so that picking one or the other isn't a long term hinderance.

Edited May 26, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

My point was that they also clearly intended them to not be useful against vehicles.

Which is part of the problem with them, because it's making things do what they shouldn't do. Combi-Meltas are meant to be useful against vehicles.

They've made the decision to make this change, it's stupid regardless.

 

2 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

The other purpose in their mind is the modeling aspect. They never include enough of a combi-weapon to kit the squad out, and I believe it's obvious they want it so that picking one or the other isn't a long term hinderance.

They have also moved to restrict units to having equipment based on what's in the box, but in this particular instance they decided to do something that is much less intuitive instead.

 

Now, a Plasma weapon doesn't behave like every other Plasma weapon; these Combi-Meltas don't behave like other meltas, and so on. The 'niche' they chose for Combi-Weapons was already filled, but they decided to make another weapon profile to also do it.

 

They made the change. It's still a stupid change that disregards lore and model readability.

[L30n1d4s]

I have to disagree... Combi-Weapons and Plasma in 10th do NOT fulfill the same role.

 

Plasma is anti elite infantry that relies on armor saves/2W to keep it alive, hence AP-3 and Dmg2 (i.e. the dedicated Space Marine killer).

 

Combi-Weapons, on the other hand, is Anti-Elite Infantry, but this time going against things that rely on their Invuls... hence, the ability to easily generate MWs and bypass BOTH Armor and Invul saves.

 

Put another way, Plasma is better/more efficient at killing elite infantry that lacks Invuls, while Combi-Weapons are better at killing elite Infantry with Invuls.

 

Now, to your point about the fluff not making sense, have to agree with you there... rules-wise, combi-flamers no longer parallel regular flamers, combi-meltas no longer mirror regular meltas, etc., and that does create some degree of cognitive dissonance, I agree.

 

That said, this is how GW decided to tackle it (I am guessing to differentiate weapons types... how can they keep Sternguard from just being duplicates of Infernus squads or Eradicators or Hellblasters, if their Combi-Weapons are just like those squads' weapons?) and, despite the fluff angle being a bit off, I have to say I have come around to it.

[Captain Idaho]

The maths is off with Oath of Moment in the top post example, by the way. It's closer to 11 than 12 Mortal Wounds, which for the example of Terminators/Blightlords, is the difference between 4 dead average and 3 dead average.

 

Still, I'm struggling to think of Combi weapons as useful over a simple melta or Plasma shot really, unless the points costs are very much a side-grade over a Storm Bolter or very generous.

 

A niche weapon that just relies on rerolls from the faction ability if used enmass just to do some damage just seems... poor. Especially if there's a vehicle I'd need to Oath instead.

[Jolemai]

Normal plasma mode is only AP-2 this edition fwiw.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, L30n1d4s said:

Plasma is anti elite infantry that relies on armor saves/2W to keep it alive, hence AP-3 and Dmg2 (i.e. the dedicated Space Marine killer).

 

Combi-Weapons, on the other hand, is Anti-Elite Infantry, but this time going against things that rely on their Invuls... hence, the ability to easily generate MWs and bypass BOTH Armor and Invul saves.

With Overcharged Plasma being AP-2, is it really bad into Invulns? I mean, yes the target gets an invuln, but then that's the trade-off for more damage potential, as well as being able to contribute vs vehicles/monsters (albeit not great).

 

CWs being AI4+/DW is...fine I guess? Without OOM it's really not doing very much, and OOM can't be relied upon all the time (ie, it will be needed in every instance if you're assuming its presence, which is just not a good thing to assume). Ultimately, I really don't see why this profile needed to be made in the first place; if anything, this profile reads more like a Grav Gun than the myriad Combi-Weapons which do not all do the same thing.

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

There is a defined and completely unique niche to the new combi-weapon profile. It isn't simply "anti-elite".

 

These weapons ignore all saves - Something that can definitely be appreciated when one encounters a 2+ invulnerable save, as an example. They definitely do exist.

 

Also these combi-weapons will indeed perform better than Melta or Plasma when targeting the right unit.

 

I can see the point you're making about having specific combi weapons in the past, but the Marine range has evolved in the last 5 years. There are now units dedicated to particular weapons, and the Sternguard are no longer the premiere way to deploy Melta, Plasma or any other configuration of ranged weapons that can be used by those other units.

[Kallas]

34 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

a 2+ invulnerable save, as an example. They definitely do exist.

Ah yes, this incredibly rare example. It's not something to base an entire profile off of.

 

34 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Also these combi-weapons will indeed perform better than Melta or Plasma when targeting the right unit.

Yes, they will, but again, they are still doing the same role. They are still anti-elite weapons, which is exactly what Grav and Plasma are supposed to be, except that now CWs are just a generic brand that doesn't fit with the weapons that they actually represent on the model.

 

35 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

the Marine range has evolved in the last 5 years. There are now units dedicated to particular weapons, and the Sternguard are no longer the premiere way to deploy Melta, Plasma or any other configuration of ranged weapons that can be used by those other units.

This isn't a good argument though, otherwise everything should be getting condensed. We've already been over this before, but the point is that Special weapons still exist, and they still compete with the specialised units (which Marines shouldn't have anyway, since that is not their design, and that is very much the Eldar Aspect Warrior design...) - Devastators are unlikely to have all of their heavy weapons condensed into a single "Heavy Weapon" profile with AV4+/DW to make them have a niche vs Eradicators; if Hellblasters existing means that Combi-Plasma needs a new niche, then so does regular Plasma. But they haven't condensed those.

 

CWs are more effective in a very specific niche; Grav Guns in 8/9e had a very specific niche too, but they were crap because of it (ie, their target was too niche to be worthwhile) - it seems like GW is forcing the issue instead of actually putting in the effort to differentiate the weapons. CWs are better against the absolute toughest infantry...but then anti-tank weapons are probably better into them anyway, so why not just bring Eradicators for them too!

 

Point is that the change to CWs is not logical, it's not loreful and it's not needed. Special weapons have their various niches, including anti-elite infantry, and CWs are just another gradiant of that that doesn't need to exist. Will they be effective? Against a very specific group of targets, sure.

[L30n1d4s]

Got it, you don't like the way Combi-Weapons have been implemented... I agree with you on the lore/fluff part, but not the rules part.

 

This does streamline the weapons, making it much easier to understand (combi-weapons have been one of the more complicated weapon rules sets in the past, with lots of text dedicated to each of their profiles) and it does provide a weapon type that is both unique and not so niche that they will never be used (like the Grav gun example you gave).

 

Given that there is much less MW access from Psychic, I think this is how GW is trying to give Combi-Weapons in general, and Sternguard specifically, a place where they aren't just a less useful Helblasters type squad.

 

Also, afraid your thing about Marines not having specialized units is wrong... first of all, they had it in spades in the HH, so if you want go back to the origins argument, then they are actually originally like this, and now in the new Primaris age they have tons of examples where Guilliman has resurrected the "aspect warrior" specialized squad types.... Eliminators, Infernus squads, Suppressors, Helblasters, Desolators, Eradicators, even to some degree Intercessors and Aggressors, are all kind of "specialist" squads, vice the "generalist" squads like Tactical Marines or DW Veterans.

Edited May 26, 2023 by L30n1d4s

[Kallas]

8 minutes ago, L30n1d4s said:

first of all, they had it in spades in the HH, so if you want go back to the origins argument, then they are actually originally like this

Yes, and then it was changed with the Codex and was that way for 10,000 years.

 

9 minutes ago, L30n1d4s said:

I agree with you on the lore/fluff part, but not the rules part.

The bit where I think they're only going to be useful against niche targets?

 

Well, they're going to be good into the most elite infantry, because they have basically no variance whatsoever: they hit on 4s, wound on 4s and do 1 damage; regardless of target. Termagant, Marine, Allarus Terminator, doesn't matter, it's the same (that in and of itself is good and bad: good because it's reliable; bad because you can't really improve it as much [eg, Lethal Hits doesn't help, because it isn't a Critical Wound; +1 to Wound wouldn't help, because AI is an unmodified roll, etc])

 

So some maths

Spoiler

vs Terminators (T5, 3W, Sv2+/4++):

CW: 0.25 damage per shot

Plasma (regular): 0.144 damage per shot

Plasma (overcharged): 0.436 damage per shot

Melta: 0.218 unsaved wounds (whatever d6 value you want to take as average: presumably 3.5, which would be 0.762 damage per shot)

Flamer: 0.055 damage per shot

 - CW is pretty mediocre on damage per shot.

 

vs Termagants (T3, 1W, Sv5+):

CW: 0.305 dps

P(r): 0.458 dps

P(o): 0.55 dps

M: 0.55 dps
F: 0.436 dps

 - CW is...still mediocre, even with the extra wounds on 3s. Plasma and Melta are obviously overkill; Flamer is great, which is where it should be.

 

vs Marine (T4, 2W, Sv3+_:

CW: 0.25 dps

P(r): 0.218 dps

P(o): 0.726 dps

M: 0.916 dps

F: 0.33 dps

 - CW is still mediocre, but the other special weapons are much better at killing here.

 

vs Rhino (T10, 10W, Sv3+):

CW: 0.027 dps

P(r): 0.109 dps

P(o): 0.288 dps

M: 0.762 dps
F: 0.055 dps

 - CW fails to outperform even the Flamer, somehow. Though none look good, because I think GW have pushed infantry AT too far down.

So the advantage of the CW profile seems to be that it's just a flat chance to do what it does. But that is about it.

If the Sternguard end up having an ability to let them change the keywords then sure, it might have more use, but as is, why ever bother bringing Sternguard over Hellblasters if you want anti-elite? And we can reasonably assume that HB Plasma will be better than Tactical Marine Plasma, because that's what they're doing with Primaris weapons (eg, Bolt Rifle vs Bolter), which will just further widen the gap since the above numbers are based on the Guard guns but with BS3+.

[Karhedron]

46 minutes ago, Kallas said:

If the Sternguard end up having an ability to let them change the keywords then sure, it might have more use, but as is, why ever bother bringing Sternguard over Hellblasters if you want anti-elite? And we can reasonably assume that HB Plasma will be better than Tactical Marine Plasma, because that's what they're doing with Primaris weapons (eg, Bolt Rifle vs Bolter), which will just further widen the gap since the above numbers are based on the Guard guns but with BS3+.

 

Because overcharged plasma is going to be a lot more dangerous to the user in 10th edition.

 

Hazardous weapons now make a separate roll to overheat when they fire. This is a significant change, because it is no longer based on the Hit roll, abilities to reroll Hits do not make Hazardous weapons safer. You have a flat 1-in-6 chance of killing the shooter with an overcharged weapon now. Combi-weapons don't have that risk. Also plasma is now going to need 5s to would vehicles making it a lot less appealing as a back-up anti-tank solution. Lastly, we do not know about prices. In 9th edition, Hellblasters were 50% more than Sternguard.

 

So you can still take Hellblasters if you like. But they will be more likely to kill themselves when over-charging, more expensive and less of an all-round option than they were in 9th.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Divorcing the overcharge from the hit roll was a good move. 9E was better making it so it was a natural roll as compared to the modifiable roll in 8E, but re-roll hits giving no hazardous benefit is a good thing.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

Because overcharged plasma is going to be a lot more dangerous to the user in 10th edition.

It's more and less dangerous: it's always a 1 in 6 chance, but it doesn't scale based on how many shots you fire.

 

So if you fire a single shot it's more dangerous (assuming rr1s, it's 1-in-6 vs 1-in-36), but for every shot fired it becomes more dangerous (rr1s with 2 shots is a 1-in-20, and so on for more shots). For the lower volume of fire of Plasma Guns and the like, yes, this is more dangerous: but we've also seen a reduction in rerolls too - Lieutenants give Lethal Hits instead of rr1toWound, Terminator Captains give reroll Charge rolls instead of rr1toHit; and while OOM is available, it's not always available for any given target - so rerolls are definitely down overall (and easy access to them massively so).

 

Assuming no reroll source, which given the information we have is pretty reasonable, then the new Plasma weapons are less lethal assuming they are firing more than 1 shot, as now they have a 1-in-6 (16%ish) chance in 10e, vs the 11-in-36 (30%ish) chance of rolling at least one 1 in 8/9e.

[Captain Idaho]

Even if Hellblasters aren't as good as they once were against Elites, melta would be, especially up close. And the thing is both weapon systems will pull double duty on other targets which the combi weapon just won't.

 

I'm just not sold on combi weapons. I mean, the best case scenario for them in 10 Sternguard, but on unit Sergeants and characters they're just not even considered.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Captain Idaho