Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Space Marine Chapters

[MagicHat]

DW CS looks neat. Love the narthecium chainfist. They seriously looks strong.

 

Hounds of Morkai are actually useful! That is amazing!

 

BA DC look very lore-friendly. Their bolt rifles lose assault and heavy because Sanguinius never held a bolt rifle, very accurate attention to detail. Looks nice, traded A for re-rolls.

 

Can't say I like that SW and BT have access to army-wide FNP. It is such a timewaster when faced with D2+ weapons.

 

Yikes on the Deathwatch Veterans if that is their full weapons list. (Which, granted, is not certain, there was some squad that referenced the Armoury card.

• Special Issue ammo gone (or more likely turned into a stratagem).
• I guess the Stalker and the shotgun got folded with the combi-weapons into Long Vigil ranged weapons.
• Lightning claws, power fists and regular TH gone/turned into Long Vigil melee weapon.
• 4 pistols gone.
• 4 special weapons and the SB gone.
• HB and HF gone.
• Black shield gone and his dual sword set-up have seemingly no rule.
• Infernus HB must pick a profile.
• But the Frag cannon and the TH looks decent.

Guess we will see how the kill-teams end up, if they even still exist. They don't seem to want mixed T, so the future of Terminators/bikes in a mixed squad looks bleak.

[DemonGSides]

Just now, MagicHat said:

DW CS looks neat. Love the narthecium chainfist. They seriously looks strong.

 

Hounds of Morkai are actually useful! That is amazing!

 

BA DC look very lore-friendly. Their bolt rifles lose assault and heavy because Sanguinius never held a bolt rifle, very accurate attention to detail. Looks nice, traded A for re-rolls.

 

Can't say I like that SW and BT have access to army-wide FNP. It is such a timewaster when faced with D2+ weapons.

 

Yikes on the Deathwatch Veterans if that is their full weapons list. (Which, granted, is not certain, there was some squad that referenced the Armoury card.

• Special Issue ammo gone (or more likely turned into a stratagem).
• I guess the Stalker and the shotgun got folded with the combi-weapons into Long Vigil ranged weapons.
• Lightning claws, power fists and regular TH gone/turned into Long Vigil melee weapon.
• 4 pistols gone.
• 4 special weapons and the SB gone.
• HB and HF gone.
• Black shield gone and his dual sword set-up have seemingly no rule.
• Infernus HB must pick a profile.
• But the Frag cannon and the TH looks decent.

Guess we will see how the kill-teams end up, if they even still exist. They don't seem to want mixed T, so the future of Terminators/bikes in a mixed squad looks bleak.

 

As funny as "Sanguinius never held a bolt rifle, therefore they dont know how to use one!" is, the actual lore explanation would be "There has never been a Death Company member who has stopped, taken aim, and fired his gun.  He just runs and fires and stabs."  Sanguinius had never held the Sword of the Emperor, but I'm PRETTY SURE he would know how to use it, yknow :P

My deathwatch buddy is also very concerned about his DW flavoring moving forward.  I get it.  These previews give you just enough to get excited but also just enough to REALLY freak you out!

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The SW buffs stack right? So you start with none, but could end up with all 4 by the end of the game?

[Squark]

10 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

The SW buffs stack right? So you start with none, but could end up with all 4 by the end of the game?

If such events happen to line up perfectl in sequence over the first 4 turns, yes, you will go into your final turn with all four buffs. I would not expect to get all 4 with any regularity.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Squark

[OttoVonAwesome]

Welp this is sad. Marines are all generic until thier specific codex drops at wich point I imagine thier detachment rule becomes thier army rule for most. Between this and the all Heresy stuff going to legends I'll be saving alot of money and time not expanding my small neglected Primaris collection and just sticking to 30k. The edition started out with so much promise but at every turn GW seems to be tossing the baby out with the bathwater in the name of the white whale that is balance.

[KnightofSigismund]

21 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Welp this is sad. Marines are all generic until thier specific codex drops at wich point I imagine thier detachment rule becomes thier army rule for most. Between this and the all Heresy stuff going to legends I'll be saving alot of money and time not expanding my small neglected Primaris collection and just sticking to 30k. The edition started out with so much promise but at every turn GW seems to be tossing the baby out with the bathwater in the name of the white whale that is balance.

But they aren’t. My Templars will play like templars, etc. this was way more flavor than people expected or thought they would get for each of these chapters. 

[Arikel]

3 hours ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

Is it just me, or do these effectively bring back the "Space Marines Plus" problem of old editions where divergent chapters were supplements? E.G. either of the Angels can do anything a baseline marine chapter can, plus they have extra units all their own in 2 of the available detachments, and maybe more options in existing units that other chapters don't get. Aside from special characters in a Gladius (of which some chapters may only have 1 or 2), there doesn't seem to be any mechanical reason to play a compliant chapter over a non-compliant one.

Not really. Everyone can use these detachments. If they are using the blood angel detachment, they get access to use any blood angel special units and characters at the cost of not being able to use any of their own special characters or units. All space marines get all the toys.

[Medicinal Carrots]

13 minutes ago, Arikel said:

Not really. Everyone can use these detachments. If they are using the blood angel detachment, they get access to use any blood angel special units and characters at the cost of not being able to use any of their own special characters or units. All space marines get all the toys.

But then you're just playing Blood Angels (the units have the faction keyword), you're no longer playing Space Marines, you're playing Space Marines Plus. Why should someone play, say, Imperial Fists in this setup if they don't want to handicap themselves?

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, KnightofSigismund said:

But they aren’t. My Templars will play like templars, etc. this was way more flavor than people expected or thought they would get for each of these chapters. 

 

Yeah but the problem is my Ultramarines will play like Templars when I select the Righteous Crusaders Detachment. 

 

As will Iron Hands, who very well might every game because of the FNP vow.

 

Etc

[Iron Father Ferrum]

5 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Yeah but the problem is my Ultramarines will play like Templars when I select the Righteous Crusaders Detachment. 

 

As will Iron Hands, who very well might every game because of the FNP vow.

 

Etc

 

You know me so well.

[Arikel]

13 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

But then you're just playing Blood Angels (the units have the faction keyword), you're no longer playing Space Marines, you're playing Space Marines Plus. Why should someone play, say, Imperial Fists in this setup if they don't want to handicap themselves?

They still get access to any and all of the six detachments. Using the blood angels detachment as an example again, they could model up a captain armed with an eviscerator from the assault marines kit and have a blast running the Imperial Fists 8th company lead by Captain Sabriel Geth, an absolute beast of a swordsman in combat, current champion of the Feast of Blades. 

[Captain Idaho]

21 minutes ago, Arikel said:

They still get access to any and all of the six detachments. Using the blood angels detachment as an example again, they could model up a captain armed with an eviscerator from the assault marines kit and have a blast running the Imperial Fists 8th company lead by Captain Sabriel Geth, an absolute beast of a swordsman in combat, current champion of the Feast of Blades. 

 

Ha, I actually have an Ultramarines Captain armed with an Eviscerator and caked in blood I dubbed "the 13th Flesh Tearer".

 

He was on foot and supposed to be a cheap Captain with Teeth of Terra/Relic Blade and a Master-Crafted Bolter.

 

Funny you should say that!

[ThePenitentOne]

So, in six pages of thread, one or two posters have skated around the unfairness, without actually articulating it clearly, so let me state it explicitly, so that maybe a few more of you will see this the way I do:

 

Are you Necrons? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Eldar? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Sisters? Or Guard? Or even CSM? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

 

Are you a loyalist?

Ah. If you have a bespoke unit in your army, you get to chose from these two detachments. If you don't, you can also choose any of these four.

 

But don't worry, we'll release your dex first, because that isn't enough choice for someone as special as you and we wouldn't want to keep you waiting.

 

What's that Necrons? Shut up- One choice is enough to keep you busy for a year or so, because in the grand scheme of things, you don't matter.

What's that guard? Shut up- Five months with all of your detachments available is enough time before 11th drops to keep a looser like you happy.

 

What's that space Marines? Oh yeah, you're right... Two months is too long for you to be stuck with a mere  2-6 detachment choices. Well, we'll be sure to publish a Tome Keepers detachment in July... Or maybe even June- I think I saw a shareholder starting to sweat.

[Medicinal Carrots]

36 minutes ago, Arikel said:

They still get access to any and all of the six detachments. Using the blood angels detachment as an example again, they could model up a captain armed with an eviscerator from the assault marines kit and have a blast running the Imperial Fists 8th company lead by Captain Sabriel Geth, an absolute beast of a swordsman in combat, current champion of the Feast of Blades. 

Again, that's just playing Blood Angels with a converted model. With the divergent chapter detachments, your choices are play that chapter, or handicap yourself. Unless the Gladius detachment excludes the divergent units, then even the generic detachment makes the compliant chapters the worst choice as they have the fewest options. You're playing Space Marines or Better Marines.

[Blindhamster]

2 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

Again, that's just playing Blood Angels with a converted model. With the divergent chapter detachments, your choices are play that chapter, or handicap yourself. Unless the Gladius detachment excludes the divergent units, then even the generic detachment makes the compliant chapters the worst choice as they have the fewest options. You're playing Space Marines or Better Marines.

Will depend if chapter specific units are actually better now right? We don't know that yet.

 

 

[Arikel]

7 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

So, in six pages of thread, one or two posters have skated around the unfairness, without actually articulating it clearly, so let me state it explicitly, so that maybe a few more of you will see this the way I do:

 

Are you Necrons? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Eldar? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Sisters? Or Guard? Or even CSM? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

 

Are you a loyalist?

Ah. If you have a bespoke unit in your army, you get to chose from these two detachments. If you don't, you can also choose any of these four.

 

But don't worry, we'll release your dex first, because that isn't enough choice for someone as special as you and we wouldn't want to keep you waiting.

 

What's that Necrons? Shut up- One choice is enough to keep you busy for a year or so, because in the grand scheme of things, you don't matter.

What's that guard? Shut up- Five months with all of your detachments available is enough time before 11th drops to keep a looser like you happy.

 

What's that space Marines? Oh yeah, you're right... Two months is too long for you to be stuck with a mere  2-6 detachment choices. Well, we'll be sure to publish a Tome Keepers detachment in July... Or maybe even June- I think I saw a shareholder starting to sweat.

I do get how this must totally stick in the craw of folk who don’t play a flavour of standard SM. Hopefully codex releases will come faster than advertised so far for everyone.

[Medicinal Carrots]

1 minute ago, Blindhamster said:

Will depend if chapter specific units are actually better now right? We don't know that yet.

 

 

If they're worth taking at all, then those chapters are better. Having an extra choice that has at least some real use is better than not having it. If they're worthless, then why even have those units?

[Blindhamster]

10 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

So, in six pages of thread, one or two posters have skated around the unfairness, without actually articulating it clearly, so let me state it explicitly, so that maybe a few more of you will see this the way I do:

 

Are you Necrons? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Eldar? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Sisters? Or Guard? Or even CSM? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

 

Are you a loyalist?

Ah. If you have a bespoke unit in your army, you get to chose from these two detachments. If you don't, you can also choose any of these four.

 

But don't worry, we'll release your dex first, because that isn't enough choice for someone as special as you and we wouldn't want to keep you waiting.

 

What's that Necrons? Shut up- One choice is enough to keep you busy for a year or so, because in the grand scheme of things, you don't matter.

What's that guard? Shut up- Five months with all of your detachments available is enough time before 11th drops to keep a looser like you happy.

 

What's that space Marines? Oh yeah, you're right... Two months is too long for you to be stuck with a mere  2-6 detachment choices. Well, we'll be sure to publish a Tome Keepers detachment in July... Or maybe even June- I think I saw a shareholder starting to sweat.

 

Everything you say is true, and its fair enough to be unhappy, it won't change anything though. Space marines make up so much of the playerbase that actually, having more options is good, because it means you aren't going to fight exactly the same army in most of your games. Also, for many editions the "snowflake" chapters were distinct codexes, technically no different from death guard or eldar or necrons, sure they shared many of the same models, but they were still distinct, GW clearly didn't have the guts to outright fold them during the index this time, will be interesting to see if they become totally distinct again when codexes drop (dark angels will show us how these chapters will actually work in 10th).

 

So yeah, I get it (and I'm sure everyone else does too), I can see why you're unhappy - you want choices, or you want space marines to lose theirs. But, it is actually better for the health of the game given the current playerbase, to ensure marines have some variations so games are actually different.

Just now, Medicinal Carrots said:

If they're worth taking at all, then those chapters are better. Having an extra choice that has at least some real use is better than not having it. If they're worthless, then why even have those units?

Sidegrades are a thing, better at something and worse at something else, doesn't necessarily mean the army is "better", more choices doesn't equate to better, simply more choices.

[Squark]

17 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

Again, that's just playing Blood Angels with a converted model. With the divergent chapter detachments, your choices are play that chapter, or handicap yourself. Unless the Gladius detachment excludes the divergent units, then even the generic detachment makes the compliant chapters the worst choice as they have the fewest options. You're playing Space Marines or Better Marines.

... And? At this point, it seems GW is actively telling you to Play Divergent Chapters With Converted Models if you think those game mechanics suit what you want to do. I don't know what else to tell you. Space Marines are already huge. After all...

24 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

So, in six pages of thread, one or two posters have skated around the unfairness, without actually articulating it clearly, so let me state it explicitly, so that maybe a few more of you will see this the way I do:

 

Are you Necrons? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Eldar? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Sisters? Or Guard? Or even CSM? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

 

Are you a loyalist?

Ah. If you have a bespoke unit in your army, you get to chose from these two detachments. If you don't, you can also choose any of these four.

 

But don't worry, we'll release your dex first, because that isn't enough choice for someone as special as you and we wouldn't want to keep you waiting.

 

What's that Necrons? Shut up- One choice is enough to keep you busy for a year or so, because in the grand scheme of things, you don't matter.

What's that guard? Shut up- Five months with all of your detachments available is enough time before 11th drops to keep a looser like you happy.

 

What's that space Marines? Oh yeah, you're right... Two months is too long for you to be stuck with a mere  2-6 detachment choices. Well, we'll be sure to publish a Tome Keepers detachment in July... Or maybe even June- I think I saw a shareholder starting to sweat.

One the one hand, you are completely right about the disparity of options. On the other hand, GW treated divergent chapters as seperate factions for over a decade. Smooshing them all into one detachment would probably make the current upset over the heresy stuff seem positively tame.

 

The correct move would probably have been to give each other faction two detachments at launch since the disparity wouldn't be quite ao great, I suppose. But I think GW is used to the community just tolerating the marine favoritism by and large. Perhaps if the community makes enough of a stink we can at least get a second detachment for everyone in CA 2024 or whatever the new thing will be called?

Edited June 2, 2023 by Squark

[Arkhanist]

12 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

So, in six pages of thread, one or two posters have skated around the unfairness, without actually articulating it clearly, so let me state it explicitly, so that maybe a few more of you will see this the way I do:

 

Are you Necrons? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Eldar? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

Are you Sisters? Or Guard? Or even CSM? Take this one detachment, shut up and like it 'til you get your dex.

 

Are you a loyalist?

Ah. If you have a bespoke unit in your army, you get to chose from these two detachments. If you don't, you can also choose any of these four.

 

But don't worry, we'll release your dex first, because that isn't enough choice for someone as special as you and we wouldn't want to keep you waiting.

 

What's that Necrons? Shut up- One choice is enough to keep you busy for a year or so, because in the grand scheme of things, you don't matter.

What's that guard? Shut up- Five months with all of your detachments available is enough time before 11th drops to keep a looser like you happy.

 

What's that space Marines? Oh yeah, you're right... Two months is too long for you to be stuck with a mere  2-6 detachment choices. Well, we'll be sure to publish a Tome Keepers detachment in July... Or maybe even June- I think I saw a shareholder starting to sweat.

 

Space marines outsell every other faction combined if I remember correctly. So much so, they have addtional codexes, now supplements, for 5 of them (plus grey knights). CSM have 4 separate books, so they get 4 separate detachments; it's only because GW have been focusing on separating them into distinct lists that they can't be shared now.

 

Blood Angels have been their own faction since 2nd edition. They share a number of units in common with vanilla space marines, but for almost all of that time were not able to take the full list, plus have their own. It's similar for the other non-codex chapters. The new BA codex isn't coming until summer 2024 at the very earliest from the roadmap (with 6 non space marine codexes in that window), and most likely later.

 

Are we supposed to feel guilty for collecting an army with its own units, characters and rules for many years, and say 'noo GW, I don't want any index rules at all for my faction. I'll wait a year or two while other more deserving armies get some extras first, I can just play them as red ultramarines with less units and in a totally different style instead'?

 

Though yes, the insistance of sticking to a slow release dead tree format so many factions will still be waiting for their dex by next summer is deeply annoying; everyone should have codexes at the same time, and it wouldn't even be hard if they did digital releases and did that instead of a bunch of temporary lists. But here we are.

[Medicinal Carrots]

14 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Sidegrades are a thing, better at something and worse at something else, doesn't necessarily mean the army is "better", more choices doesn't equate to better, simply more choices.

The option of a sidegrade unit itself is an upgrade to the chapter. If chapter 1 only has option A, and chapter 2 has options A and B, then chapter 2 is objectively better, even if options A and B are sidegrades to each other.

 

9 minutes ago, Squark said:

... And? At this point, it seems GW is actively telling you to Play Divergent Chapters With Converted Models if you think those game mechanics suit what you want to do. I don't know what else to tell you. Space Marines are already huge.

 If that's the case, they're telling their biggest selling faction in general and the poster boys of that faction to sit out 10th. "This other faction gets all the same toys you get, plus more toys you don't get" is pretty disenheartening. Play another faction, intentionally hobble yourself, or don't play is a bad message

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, burningsky25 said:

 

I'm hoping they finally figure out how to properly differentiate between Sternguard, Vanguard, Bladeguard - especially the latter two, by making the choice between fast and heavy hitting, or slower but more durable.  If Storm Shields give invulnerable then VV are just flying BG, but if it's just +1W instead, then I think we actually will have 3+ 3/4W Vanguard, and 3+,4++, 4W Bladeguard.  In this case Invulnerable coming from the Iron Halo; I don't think there's any reason that shouldn't be the case.  At least I'm hoping that's how it shakes out, it would better differentiate the units strengths and weaknesses.

Weapon choice I think is what really differentiates them.

LC with shield is a pretty good combo.

 

9 hours ago, Arikel said:

Not really. Everyone can use these detachments. If they are using the blood angel detachment, they get access to use any blood angel special units and characters at the cost of not being able to use any of their own special characters or units. All space marines get all the toys.

This isn’t news…if you take the BA detachment you’re playing BA regardless of your paint scheme.

 

anyone could play using BA rules regardless of their paint scheme.

[Blindhamster]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Weapon choice I think is what really differentiates them.

LC with shield is a pretty good combo.

point is more, they each ideally need a niche, bladeguard being tanky, whilst vanguard are fast, but both hit comparably would be an option for that. If vanguard can get invulnerable saves, and have 3 wounds base, then realistically vanguard are just better than bladeguard because there won't be something vanguard are worse at. Whereas if the invulnerable save is unique to bladeguard - they have their niche, whilst bladeguard have theirs with movement 12.

 

in all likelyhood, the two units will have different special rules too though,

[ThePenitentOne]

@Blindhamster That variety of opponents point is a good one, and not one that was immediately obvious to me.

 

@Squark I didn't want them to cram all marines into one detachment- I do understand how important Marines are to game health, and Blindhamster's point above makes that point even stronger. But what I think would have been fair is:

 

Blood Angels? This is your ONE detachment until you get your dex.

Dark Angels? This is your ONE detachment until you get your dex.

Codex compliant Marines? This your one detachment, and we're not letting named chapters have access so that you feel as special as they do.

 

I also understand that Marines need to be in the starterbox for the health of the game, and that they need first dex privilege for the same reason. But maybe don't publish a single White Dwarf article for Marines for six months; instead, make the first article  extra rules for the faction they already know is getting their dex LAST. Next month? The dudes that get their dex second last. ETC.

 

After six months, the buzz for marines from all the stuff they get out of the gate will be starting wear off, so put them back in rotation. But we'll go Marine, then Chaos, Then non-Marine Imperium then Xenos in rotation from that point forward in reverse order of dex releases. Use WD to level the playing field of options, not so much to give Marines more. The game itself will continue to do that.

 

Heck, even just locking snowflake detachments to the relevant subfaction would limit those armies to two choices instead of six... Though this would be unfair to Codex Compliant Marines since they alone of Marines would have only one choice (just like the rest of us). The great thing about either of these compromises is that they would still provide the diversity that Blindhamster points out is important to the game, but they would also bring Marines a little closer to what the reset means for the rest of us. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by ThePenitentOne

[spessmarine]

11 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

DA has a weaker detachment rule as "Lion tax"?

 

Weaker is to be determined, less exciting yeah I'd say so.

 

Saga of the Bear adds another oddity to the game.

Grab a character or two, have them try and blow themselves up in a corner with Gets Hots ASAP, or some other mechanic that lets you throw some mortals on your guys in order for your army to suddenly pick up a 6+++.

 

Something with say 5 wounds needs to get dropped to 2 or 1 wounds without being killed, so won't be easy. Still funny to pretend.