Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Focus: Space Marine Chapters

[Marshal Reinhard]

10 hours ago, Arkhanist said:

 

Possibly; the "Astartes Shield" for deathwatch still provides a 4++. For units that already have an invulnerable, e.g. terminators and captains, giving them +1 wound instead seems to be the usual outcome, but for normal bladeguard they might not.

 

9 hours ago, prava said:

Nah. Shileds seem to work like this. Do you have a 4+ invuln save? If yes, get +1 wound. If not, get 4+ invuln save.

 

So I would expect the BG to be 3+/4++ 3 wounds

 

9 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

This is what I would expect as well.

 

What about the iron halo's though? Or do those not provide invuls in 10th anymore? 

[Sir Clausel]

28 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

What about the iron halo's though? Or do those not provide invuls in 10th anymore? 

 

I think they will get 4+ invul and 4 wounds for the halo and shield. But then nerf their swords to being regular power weapons. This way they will stand out as tanks.

[Arikel]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

This isn’t news…if you take the BA detachment you’re playing BA regardless of your paint scheme.

 

anyone could play using BA rules regardless of their paint scheme.

This was true implicitly before. It is now true with the explicit blessing of GW in their official messaging. Any chapter can use any detachment, as long as they abide by the rules of the detachment regarding any restrictions.  As far as I am aware this is the first time GW has given their official endorsement to the practice.

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Arikel said:

This was true implicitly before. It is now true with the explicit blessing of GW in their official messaging. Any chapter can use any detachment, as long as they abide by the rules of the detachment regarding any restrictions.  As far as I am aware this is the first time GW has given their official endorsement to the practice.

I don’t think this is actually the case, though? 
 

Like, yes, you can have ultramarine painted units using these rules, as before, but you still cannot use Ultramarine specific units with these rules. It’s literally no different. If you want to use these rules, you have to use the entirety of the rules for these, meaning as far as it is concerned you are a successor of the given chapter.

 

So your ultramarine painted guys that use the Index: Blood Angels have to use the Index: Blood Angels, and then you have to use the Sons of Sanguinius detachment, and their data sheets (which will likely have some differences). 
 

They aren’t Ultramarines in a special detachment, they are Ultra Angels, successor 123 of the BA geneline :p

 

ETA:

I am not saying not every chapter can use any of the detachments, I’m merely saying I don’t see any difference from before. 

 

Though I will also say I chose not to “disagree” with the quoted portion because I guess it is true that now “Counts as” is explicitly endorsed, so it is technically correct, which is the best kind of correct.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Maritn]

17 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

And master crafted power weapons

Edit: Nevermind, someone else has already brought up the Castellan. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Maritn

[Sword Brethren Durion]

There's something I might not understand... So you can play black templar detachment as ultra marine for example with Guilliman in it ? Or it's locked for special characters from other chapter, and it's kinda just saying "Hey I want to play BT/SW/DA/BA rules, but I've got an ultra marine army so lets say they are black/blue/green/red"

[Vardus]

2 minutes ago, Sword Brethren Durion said:

There's something I might not understand... So you can play black templar detachment as ultra marine for example with Guilliman in it ? Or it's locked for special characters from other chapter, and it's kinda just saying "Hey I want to play BT/SW/DA/BA rules, but I've got an ultra marine army so lets say they are black/blue/green/red"

 

The way it seems to work is that the detachment rule has a key word, so all Adeptus Astartes only units are usable by any detachment, but Chapter specific keywords on the data card exclude /include their usage for chapter specific detachments.

[sandrorect]

34 minutes ago, Sword Brethren Durion said:

There's something I might not understand... So you can play black templar detachment as ultra marine for example with Guilliman in it ? Or it's locked for special characters from other chapter, and it's kinda just saying "Hey I want to play BT/SW/DA/BA rules, but I've got an ultra marine army so lets say they are black/blue/green/red"

 

Most probably, Guilliman is not in the army list of the templar detachment, so no.

 

You can´t play ultramarines with the black templar rules. You can play a blue paint black templars.

[Lysimachus]

So, am I understanding it right that you could build and paint, for example, a Dark Angels Deathwing-focused army with a Terminator Command Squad and lead by Belial. You could play it using the DA Detachment and therefore use the actual DA squads and characters datasheets.

 

Alternatively, you could play the exact same army in a Gladius, but if you did that you couldn't include DA specific units, you'd have to stick to the regular Marine datasheets. So Belial would have to be a regular TDA Captain and the TDA squad would just be regular Termis?

 

Or same minis again, but use them as Space Wolves Detachment, and again you couldn't include the DA stuff, you'd have to counts-as a Wolf Lord and Wolf Guard?

 

 

 

 

Equally, viewing from the other side, you could build the exact same army list (Termis using the DA detachment and characters) but paint it as Ultramarines 1st Company led by Captain Agemman? Or Blood Angels led by Karlen*?

 

*(Is that the BA 1st Co Captain?)

 

 

I think that sounds pretty good, everyone gets a distinct ruleset but you're free to paint however you want and switch around your playstyle?

[Arkhanist]

30 minutes ago, Sword Brethren Durion said:

There's something I might not understand... So you can play black templar detachment as ultra marine for example with Guilliman in it ? Or it's locked for special characters from other chapter, and it's kinda just saying "Hey I want to play BT/SW/DA/BA rules, but I've got an ultra marine army so lets say they are black/blue/green/red"

 

It explicitly decouples paint scheme from rules. You may have models painted as black templars, but if you want to use say the Blood Angels detachment, you are now playing by their rules - so you're not a black templars army any more, but a blood angels (or successor chapter) one, that happens to be painted black. So you couldn't take e.g. a crusader squad, because that's locked to the Black Templars keyword, while you could take Death Company or Dante. And vice-versa - my painted-as-BA can 'count-as' any other chapter for rules purposes, but I have to follow their allowed units and can't take any BA-specific ones.

 

For me, I'm likely never going to do that; giving up the BA keyword stuff means I'm not really BA with different rules, but effectively a legit proxy army using a subset of my existing models. Which has been a thing people did before, but it was kinda frowned on by GW. For example, when playing at Warhammer World:

 

Quote

If you have painted your models in a specific way, we expect you to use the rules relevant to that scheme.
For example, if you have painted your models as Salamanders, your army must have the Salamanders keyword or if you have
painted your models as Hammers of Sigmar they must use the relevant Command Trait, Artefact of Power etc

 

The exception to the detachment locking to chapter keyword probably being the Gladius detachment; we can take that one as any chapter, and likely still keep our special stuff as the keyword there looks to be Adeptus Astartes rather than say, Ultramarines or Salamanders (unless you take one of those chapters' keyworded characters). But we haven't had that officially confirmed just yet, and it may change once the codex drops.

[Xenith]

7 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

But what I think would have been fair is:

 

Blood Angels? This is your ONE detachment until you get your dex.

Dark Angels? This is your ONE detachment until you get your dex.

Codex compliant Marines? This your one detachment, and we're not letting named chapters have access so that you feel as special as they do.

 

Didn't they say there are several detachments for each faction that will be released with the indexes, however in the Warcom articles they're just showing us one from each faction?

[Mandragola]

18 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

Didn't they say there are several detachments for each faction that will be released with the indexes, however in the Warcom articles they're just showing us one from each faction?

I think it might be codexes that get multiple detachments, not indexes. Not sure though. 
 

I actually like the idea of taking the DA detachment for my Crimson Fists. Stubbornly holding on is what they’re all about, after all. And having a unit continue to score could be very impactful- though perhaps not more so than some of the other things. 
 

Of course, there’s then the temptation to add in DA units. It looks like I could only do that if not using Pedro, which is probably fair enough. 

[marspeople]

We have no idea what the unit restrictions of the Gladius Task Force are.

There might not be any! Other that not mixing unique chapter keywords.

[Frogian]

49 minutes ago, Lysimachus said:

Alternatively, you could play the exact same army in a Gladius, but if you did that you couldn't include DA specific units, you'd have to stick to the regular Marine datasheets. So Belial would have to be a regular TDA Captain and the TDA squad would just be regular Termis?

 

Its not completely clear but it looks like you  could still do Gladius with DA specific units and characters - as Gladius is for everything and has no chapter specific key word. As all DA are also all Adeptus Astrates that is fine. 

 

What you couldn't do is Champions of Russ with DA specific things, because Champions of Russ has the Space Wolves key word

[Kilamandaros]

Yea I thought it was pretty clear the Gladius was available to every chapter, as long as your unique units e.g. sword brethren fit into that detachment you can use it instead of the BT-specific detachment.

[Arkhanist]

41 minutes ago, Lysimachus said:

So, am I understanding it right that you could build and paint, for example, a Dark Angels Deathwing-focused army with a Terminator Command Squad and lead by Belial. You could play it using the DA Detachment and therefore use the actual DA squads and characters datasheets.

 

Alternatively, you could play the exact same army in a Gladius, but if you did that you couldn't include DA specific units, you'd have to stick to the regular Marine datasheets. So Belial would have to be a regular TDA Captain and the TDA squad would just be regular Termis?

 

Or same minis again, but use them as Space Wolves Detachment, and again you couldn't include the DA stuff, you'd have to counts-as a Wolf Lord and Wolf Guard?

 

 

 

 

Equally, viewing from the other side, you could build the exact same army list (Termis using the DA detachment and characters) but paint it as Ultramarines 1st Company led by Captain Agemman? Or Blood Angels led by Karlen*?

 

*(Is that the BA 1st Co Captain?)

 

 

I think that sounds pretty good, everyone gets a distinct ruleset but you're free to paint however you want and switch around your playstyle?

 

Sort of, but not using the explicit examples you give as I understand it. You need to separate fluff from rules/crunch.

 

Fluffwise, an army painted as Dark Angels with a different chapter detachment is still a Dark Angels force, but borrowing the tactics of their brother marines. Ruleswise, they're whatever chapter keyword the detachment is locked to, and they follow the same unit allowances as that keyword.

 

So a Terminator Command Squad is a Dark Angels keyword unit. You can only take them in the Dark Angels keyword detachment (or potentially the Gladius one). There isn't a direct equivalent in other chapters, so you couldn't use them in another keyword detachment, as-is with all their special options due to WYSIWYG - unless you're just using them as e.g. a basic terminator squad (storm bolter+power fist), or an assault terminator squad that IS allowed in e.g. Blood Angels. (space wolves can also mix assault and tactical loadout terminators in the same wolf guard squad IIRC).

 

Same goes for Belial; he's a named character with a specific model, and hence keyword in the rules by WYSIWYG. so you can't explicitly proxy that model as a different 'epic character' (unless your opponent is fine with that sort of thing of course). A generic terminator captain though, he could be any chapter, even though he's painted in deathwing or ultramarines or whatever colours; it's the keyword that matters. But e.g. the Lion is a dark angels unit, regardless of what colour scheme he's painted in. He could show up in red (or blue, or green!) in a Blood Angels painted army, but rules wise they'd be a Dark Angels keyword army and could take DA specific units and the DA detachment, and not any BA-locked ones.

 

In theory the exception is you'll be able to take a gladius detachment which has no chapter keyword, and add DA keyword units to it; doing so would then block you from taking any other chapter keyworded units, so you couldn't also add in Dante or Guilliman for example. But you could take a Gladius deatchment with Guilliman, making it Ultramarines, and then add in any units you have that match units Ultramarines can take, even if they're painted green or bone.

 

How much any of this will change once the marine (and dark angels) codex drops, who knows - it might get really shaken up, or remain unchanged, no way to know at this point.

[Nova-V]

51 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

Didn't they say there are several detachments for each faction that will be released with the indexes, however in the Warcom articles they're just showing us one from each faction?

Not with the indexs, at launch each faction will have one detachment.  Then as each codex comes out factions will start to get multiple detachments to cover different playstyles.  So for example Guard currently have the 'Combined Regiment' detachment to cover all playstyles, when they finally get a codex they will then likely keep CR as a default but also get specialist ones like tank focused, massed infantry, mech infantry, etc to allow for different players.

 

Space marines are a little more tricky because they have the 5 chapters that are their own factions from a rules point of view and have their own codexs.  GW has for a while (they certainly mentioned it in 9th) wanted to decouple paint job from rules while still keeping the chapters fluffy.  So at the moment most space marine units (no matter what you have painted them) can access any of the 6 different detachments (SM, BA, DA, DW, BT, SW) with the only limit that chapter specific units can only access one detachment (so The Lion only in the DA one).  What isn't clear is what will happen when codexs come out.  Each codex will come with multiple detachments but will the walls go back up and armies be limited to just their book like the chapter specific units currently. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

1 hour ago, Lysimachus said:

So, am I understanding it right that you could build and paint, for example, a Dark Angels Deathwing-focused army with a Terminator Command Squad and lead by Belial. You could play it using the DA Detachment and therefore use the actual DA squads and characters datasheets.

 

Alternatively, you could play the exact same army in a Gladius, but if you did that you couldn't include DA specific units, you'd have to stick to the regular Marine datasheets. So Belial would have to be a regular TDA Captain and the TDA squad would just be regular Termis?

 

Or same minis again, but use them as Space Wolves Detachment, and again you couldn't include the DA stuff, you'd have to counts-as a Wolf Lord and Wolf Guard?

 

 

 

 

Equally, viewing from the other side, you could build the exact same army list (Termis using the DA detachment and characters) but paint it as Ultramarines 1st Company led by Captain Agemman? Or Blood Angels led by Karlen*?

 

*(Is that the BA 1st Co Captain?)

 

 

I think that sounds pretty good, everyone gets a distinct ruleset but you're free to paint however you want and switch around your playstyle?

 

Yes to all of the above, the only additional bit is that going by their article (as pointed out to me by @Khornestar), DA specific units can still be used in the Galdius Detachment.

Being able to use an Ultras army with DA rules is how it's always been, it's just the detachment stuff has moved stuff around a tad. Codex switching is also way more accessible to do as the Indexes are free!

[BluejayJunior]

18 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Guilliman is better offensively, but I think the Lion would take him in one on one with the rules.

 

I actually think the 2 are suitably different which is cool. Both are still massively offensive but the slight differences are cool.

 

Does he have Cypher's pistols?

No, he's got an ancient relic plasma pistol. (or I guess, a combi-pistol?)

17 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The paint never mattered.

there was never a rule that said you couldn’t have a blue blood angel successor with upside down omegas for their chapter badge.

 

Red thirst got nerfed pretty hard and in my experience wasn’t particularly strong as it was.

I would argue that Red Thirst was just brought in line with the current rules. (maybe losing the +1 to charge is a nerf). +1 to wound with the increase in everything's toughness is way too powerful. I think the new rule is pretty solid. 

[Karhedron]

I am pretty certain that you can take chapter-specific units in a Gladius Strike Force because otherwise there would be no way to field Guilliman, Calgar etc as there is no UM-specific detachment. My understanding is you can take a GSF but as soon as you add a chapter-specific unit, you cannot take units specific to a different Chapter.

 

To use the example above, if you have a DA army with Belial and a Deathwing Command Squad, you can run that as an Unforgiven Taskforce. You can also choose to run the same army as a Gladius Strikeforce if you decide you would rather use Combat Doctrines than Grim Resolve. However, having DA units in a GSF means that you cannot then include BA, SW etc.

[Blindhamster]

8 minutes ago, BluejayJunior said:

No, he's got an ancient relic plasma pistol. (or I guess, a combi-pistol?)

I would argue that Red Thirst was just brought in line with the current rules. (maybe losing the +1 to charge is a nerf). +1 to wound with the increase in everything's toughness is way too powerful. I think the new rule is pretty solid. 

agree on the strength vs bonus to wound thing, BA bonus to strength is basically a worse, more situational version of death guards mallus to toughness.

that said, its still a nerf overall because it applies less frequently than it used to (only when charging, not when charged) and the loss of the bonus to advance and charge will hurt with even getting to benefit from the bonus at all. The bonus attack is a straight copy of the old super doctrine benefit so is kinda neither a bonus or nerf, though again, only applies when charging now.

 

It's also unclear if the Red Thirst even activates if heroic intervening, kinda think it may not, if so, its even less likely to go off. So its a far more situational benefit than stuff like "hey, my entire army has sustained hits, or lethal hits or feel no pain, all the time".

 

All that said, I'm happy there is even a rule to represent the thirst at all!

Edited June 2, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Karhedron]

3 minutes ago, BluejayJunior said:

I would argue that Red Thirst was just brought in line with the current rules. (maybe losing the +1 to charge is a nerf). +1 to wound with the increase in everything's toughness is way too powerful. I think the new rule is pretty solid. 

 

I agree. +1 to Wound in the new meta would be very powerful and rather go against the improved durability motif of 10th edition. We also get +1A which is the equivalent of Savage Echoes but lasting the entire game instead of having to wait until T3. 

 

Yes it is a nerf compared to 9th edition but if you look at the other Chapters, pretty much everyone has got a nerf to some degree. Blood Angels have come out pretty well compared to Space Wolves I think. Wolves get no detachment bonuses until T2 at the earliest and several of them are pretty hard to trigger or situational. My Blood Angels will be happy with Red Thirst but I can see my Wolves simply running as a Gladius Strike Force as I think Combat Doctrines will have more mileage than Sagas.

[Blindhamster]

1 minute ago, Karhedron said:

 

I agree. +1 to Wound in the new meta would be very powerful and rather go against the improved durability motif of 10th edition. We also get +1A which is the equivalent of Savage Echoes but lasting the entire game instead of having to wait until T3. 

 

Yes it is a nerf compared to 9th edition but if you look at the other Chapters, pretty much everyone has got a nerf to some degree. Blood Angels have come out pretty well compared to Space Wolves I think. Wolves get no detachment bonuses until T2 at the earliest and several of them are pretty hard to trigger or situational. My Blood Angels will be happy with Red Thirst but I can see my Wolves simply running as a Gladius Strike Force as I think Combat Doctrines will have more mileage than Sagas.

Wolves wants you to lean heavily into characters, which to be fair, has been a thing for them since 3rd ed (where they used to require a character for every 500 points of army). There's definitely some wording issues with the wolves sagas that make them seem harder than I think they're intended to be too. Wolves do have the potential to be far better than any of the others if they can complete a couple of sagas though, which I think is cool, and the majesty one is potentially straight up busted OC3 grey hunters!!

[Karhedron]

Just now, Blindhamster said:

It's also unclear if the Red Thirst even activates if heroic intervening, kinda think it may not, if so, its even less likely to go off. So its a far more situational benefit than stuff like "hey, my entire army has sustained hits, or lethal hits or feel no pain, all the time".

 

RAW, Red Thirst does trigger when Heroically Intervening.

 

 

 

 

The rules for Charging Specify that the Charge Bonus confers the First Strike rule on a charging unit until the end of the turn.

 

The rules for Heroic Intervention specify that the unit resolves the charge "as if it was your charge phase" but the unit does not receive any charge bonus this turn. I.e. it does not get First Strike.

 

The rules for Red Thirst states that models which made a charge move this turn get +1S and +1A. It does not call this a "charge bonus" so it is not excluded by Heroic Intervention.

 

Now I don't claim to know what GW had in mind when they wrote this rule and we can't guarantee they won't FAQ it or change the wording before the actual release. But RAW, Red Thirst applies when Heroically intervening.

[Kallas]

14 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

It's also unclear if the Red Thirst even activates if heroic intervening

It would activate on a HI:

Spoiler

 

HI allows a unit within 6" to declare a charge, though they do not receive the Charge Bonus of Fights First (personally, I think that's a shame) but Red Thirst doesn't require the Charge Bonus to be active, just that a unit has made a Charge move - which they will have done.

 

Edit: Damn Ninjas! 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Kallas
Ninja'd