Wh40k 10th Edition Leagues of Votann Index

[Lord Marshal]

You Better Believe That's A Grudgin'

[phandaal]

Very first enhancement is broken as written:

 

"In your Command phase, you can select one objective marker your opponent controls. Until the end of the phase, while an enemy unit is within range of that objective marker, it counts as having one more Judgement token than it actually has (to a maximum of 2)."

 

Enemy unit counts as having an extra token until the end of your own command phase.

 

Pretty much sums up the index. The ancestors eagerly await the results of the first balance pass and FAQ.

[Lord Marshal]

Initial takeaways.

 

Kahl is shaping up to be a better take than Uthar just for giving [LETHAL HITS]. Plus I don't see a world where they make Uthar cheaper than a Kahl (at least at launch) just because he's the special character variant. Only getting one use of Grim Efficiency per round further dilutes his use. The Store Anniversary variant is still illegal, not that anyone will care if you proxy his plasma sword as a plasma axe but still.

 

Champion exists.

 

I'd like the Grimnyr more if you could still run 20-man blobs of Warriors, but I think 10 of them are going to evaporate so quickly even at T6 as to be kind of eh. Focused Ancestral Wrath might be fun though. Depends on points.

 

I don't like Warriors dropping to 10-man. It was inevitable after Skitarii, but I still don't like it. We're now also living in a world where Votann in lore explicitly don't like wasting lives, but the new Judgement Token mechanic incentivises you splitting them into 5's via Mars Rovers so they can die quicker in order to farm them.

 

Hearthguard seem alright. No Invulnerable though, because I guess GW didn't want to show up the new Terminators or something. Concussion Gauntlets kind of feel like the way to go this time around just because of how little high Strength weaponry there is in the rest of the list.

 

Thunderkyn with Grav might be mandatory for being the only unit with any [Anti-Vehicle].

 

Devil will be in the points tomorrow.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Arendious]

So the man-portable railgun is now a glorified shotgun, out-ranged by many standard rapid-fire weapons.

 

Meanwhile, over in the Tau'va, rail rifles still have their 30" range...

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

Kahl is shaping up to be a better take than Uthar just for giving [LETHAL HITS]. Plus I don't see a world where they make Uthar cheaper than a Kahl (at least at launch) just because he's the special character variant. Only getting one use of Grim Efficiency per round further dilutes his use. The Store Anniversary variant is still illegal, not that anyone will care if you proxy his plasma sword as a plasma axe but still.

 

 

Two Carls is probably the move. One with a block of 10 Hearthguard in Deep Strike with Rampart Crest and Long List, one on the field with Appraising Glare (once it is FAQed to actually function).

 

Maybe take an Ironmaster, if you can get enough mileage out of shooting something without JT. Grimnyr needs to be a free wargear upgrade for Warriors to be worth it. Champ is there too.

[spessmarine]

Uther's ability is a little odd to look at since he doesn't have any variable damage weapons so... ?

[caladancid]

11 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

Uther's ability is a little odd to look at since he doesn't have any variable damage weapons so... ?

 

Don't question, it will just hurt more.

[Malakithe]

3 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Two Carls is probably the move. One with a block of 10 Hearthguard in Deep Strike with Rampart Crest and Long List, one on the field with Appraising Glare (once it is FAQed to actually function).

 

Maybe take an Ironmaster, if you can get enough mileage out of shooting something without JT. Grimnyr needs to be a free wargear upgrade for Warriors to be worth it. Champ is there too.

Assuming the standard only take one 'captain/warboss' rule is gone

[Sea Creature]

I just don’t see them doing well for the same reasons as ninth edition. Maybe the second wave will be kind to them. They need something.

[Minsc]

They look dead on arrival unless there's some serious pointcuts. 

So many weird designchoices as well, whats the point of the Sagitaurs special rule? When and where do you want to utilize it? To deploy 5 warriors ever so slightly closer to the enemy? WOW!

[Doobles57]

36 minutes ago, Minsc said:

They look dead on arrival unless there's some serious pointcuts. 

So many weird designchoices as well, whats the point of the Sagitaurs special rule? When and where do you want to utilize it? To deploy 5 warriors ever so slightly closer to the enemy? WOW!

So you split out a 5 man suicide unit to die and give out a judgement token. Which is a design choice I guess. 

 

So many anti synergies in the index. Zero hit rerolls anywhere. Rail Rifle range. Nerfs across the board. Outside of the kahls the characters don't seem hugely worth it. All in all just poor. 

 

I love the votann range but found their 9th rules, even nerfed, to not be much fun. They were good at everything and had a strat for literally everything and it was not a fun playstyle. In 10th they look like they'll still be unfun but for wholly different reasons. 

 

Wonder if the "votann op broken" stigma will finally fade away now. 

[Trokair]

Looking at the index I get the impression it makes more sense to attach a Kahl to Einhyr Hearthguard instead of the Einhyr Champion.

[Lord Marshal]

 

 

Just for easier reference. 

 

 

[Minsc]

10 hours ago, Doobles88 said:

So you split out a 5 man suicide unit to die and give out a judgement token. Which is a design choice I guess. 

 

Yeah that's an option I guess. Though I would rather simply have a Champion running around on his own, than split up (and essentially sacrifice) half a warriorsquad.)
Basically the same point-cost but the Champ is way tankier and more lethal.

 

10 hours ago, Trokair said:

Looking at the index I get the impression it makes more sense to attach a Kahl to Einhyr Hearthguard instead of the Einhyr Champion.

Depending on the wargear you give the Hearthguard I agree. Khal's Lethal Hits does kinda interfere with Volkite though.

Khal (90 pts) gives them:
- Lethal Hits (really good with anything except for Volkite where it messes with Devastating Wounds.)
- 5++ (or Deep Strike, but you can also sacrifice the Hesyr's 4++ instead for the same effect.)
- Token that benefits the entire army. 

Champion (75 pts) gives them:

- Re-roll charge
- Transhuman (Edit: it would seem that both Khals and Champions give them transhuman.)

- Champion brings a much better statline than the Khal.
(- Deepstrike if you sacrifice his own 4++, but you can also sacrifice the Hesyr's 4++ instead for the same effect.)

 

Transhuman on T6 isn't that amazing but I think it'll come into play more often than a 5++ given their 2+ save. 
Lethal Hits will probably benefit them more than reroll charge, but both rules are pretty good to have.
Grim efficiency is amazing, sorry Champion but not even your decent fightingskills have a chance against that.

It's a pretty though choice, so well done GW there I suppose. 

Edit: Screw that. With Khals also giving them transhuman, it's a nobrainer choice to put a Khal in them and let the Champion run around on his own...

 

10 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

*Points*

Just for easier reference. 

My initial impression is that points are "mostly fine". The only outlier is Berserks: ain't no way in hell they're worth 27 ppm given everything they lost. 
(To add insult to injury, GW also "forgot" to give them - and only them - increased T. Every other LoV-unit gained T in 10th.)

Not allowing Champions to join Berserks (and giving them re-roll charge as with Hearthguard) was a mistake. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Minsc

[Trokair]

15 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Depending on the wargear you give the Hearthguard I agree. Khal's Lethal Hits does kinda interfere with Volkite though.

Khal (90 pts) gives them:
- Lethal Hits (really good with anything except for Volkite where it messes with Devastating Wounds.)
- 5++ (or Deep Strike, but you can also sacrifice the Hesyr's 4++ instead for the same effect.)
- Token that benefits the entire army. 

Champion (75 pts) gives them:

- Re-roll charge
- Transhuman

- Champion brings a much better statline than the Khal.
(- Deepstrike if you sacrifice his own 4++, but you can also sacrifice the Hesyr's 4++ instead for the same effect.)

 

Transhuman on T6 isn't that amazing but I think it'll come into play more often than a 5++ given their 2+ save. 
Lethal Hits will probably benefit them more than reroll charge, but both rules are pretty good to have.
Grim efficiency is amazing, sorry Champion but not even your decent fightingskills have a chance against that.

It's a pretty though choice, so well done GW there I suppose. 

 

I must be missing something, where is the Transhuman coming from?

 

As my Hearthguard are built with plasma and fists (they are the anti heavy infantry while the Beserks are the anti light/medium infantry in my old list) I had not considered the volkanite not working as nicely with the Kahl, so in some regard it is actually a more nuanced choice then I had thought, which is a good thing.

 

Experience of my dice however is still nudging me towards the 5++. I used Ymyr precisely for the same reason (though the extra range was also usefull that was a bonus in my considerations)

 

 

15 minutes ago, Minsc said:

My initial impression is that points are "mostly fine". The only outlier is Berserks: ain't no way in hell they're worth 27 ppm given everything they lost. 
(To add insult to injury, GW also "forgot" to give them - and only them - increased T. Every other LoV-unit gained T in 10th.)

Not allowing Champions to join Berserks (and giving them re-roll charge as with Hearthguard) was a mistake. 

I had not noticed the 'not +1T from 9th' as T5 for slayer stile dwarfs still feels fine.  I'll will still run mine they will hitch a ride in my singular Sagitaur. 

 

 

[Minsc]

34 minutes ago, Trokair said:

 

I must be missing something, where is the Transhuman coming from?

 

It's the "Oathband Bodyguard" rule for the Hearthguard themselves.

Ironically, I just noticed upon rereading it that it simply states "while a character is leading", for some reason I thought it was "while a Einhyr champion is leading"... so both the Champion and the Khal gives them Transhuman. 

Well there goes that nuance. >_>
Sod it, Khal is clearly better to lead the Hearthguard in that case. Grim Efficiency + Lethal Hits + 5++ >>>>> Re-roll charge.

 

Let the Champion run around on his own as a cheap beatstick that gives away a token when he ultimately dies...

Edited June 17, 2023 by Minsc

[Trokair]

Time for the Distraction Carnifex Champion. 

 

Shame he only gets the Re-roll charge while leading a unit, otherwise telporting in and putting his hammer to work on a tank in the back gield would be a good use, the missile champion.

[marspeople]

The Champion seems terrible. He cant deep strike or reroll charges on his own.

[Minsc]

8 hours ago, marspeople said:

The Champion seems terrible. He cant deep strike or reroll charges on his own.

 

I don't think he's terrible, but GW certainly failed at making him appealing to put in a squad. (The reroll in particular should be something he has even without a squad.) At least they compensated this somewhat by making him quite cheap.

He's one of our cheapest ways to gain "sacrifical tokens".
I plan to use one (with Wayfarers Grace if points allow) and simply use him as a "Distraction Champion" and send him off on his own. He's fairly resilient and easy to hide, and he's certainly a threat to most things in close combat with his hammer and mortal wounds. If he dies he dies and he gives up a token. With Wayfarers Grace he'll probably get back up again and continue and be a threat - and give away a second token if he dies again.

I'm not sure if keeping your Warlord alive "matters" or not in 10th, but if you make him your Warlord you can probably have some fun with the Newfound Nemesis-stratagem as well. He can potentially give away 6 grudge tokens in this manner.

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Minsc

[marspeople]

Do multiple Kahl's give out multiple Judgment tokens with their Grim Efficiency?

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, marspeople said:

Do multiple Kahl's give out multiple Judgment tokens with their Grim Efficiency?

 

No, only one per turn regardless of how many Carls we have 

[TheVoidDragon]

Really don't feel like the Leagues new rules come anywhere close to representing what they're meant to be lore-wise. They're meant to be an elite army, who doesn't just throw away units or resources, who have expertly crafted superior DAOT tech, operate in a maximalist "no half measures" way, and come with cybernetics that include anti-recoil and auto-targetting connections to their weapons as standard, and potentially being centuries old and with cloneskeins that can give all sorts of enhancements. I feel like they should like an army of space marine scouts or stormtroopers to fit that and give them a pretty unique gameplay niche.

 

Some of these rules are just absurd.  Especially the theming focusing on you playing in a way that loses you units and the Railguns pathetic range.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by TheVoidDragon

[Doobles57]

On 6/19/2023 at 10:56 AM, Minsc said:

 

I don't think he's terrible, but GW certainly failed at making him appealing to put in a squad. (The reroll in particular should be something he has even without a squad.) At least they compensated this somewhat by making him quite cheap.

He's one of our cheapest ways to gain "sacrifical tokens".
I plan to use one (with Wayfarers Grace if points allow) and simply use him as a "Distraction Champion" and send him off on his own. He's fairly resilient and easy to hide, and he's certainly a threat to most things in close combat with his hammer and mortal wounds. If he dies he dies and he gives up a token. With Wayfarers Grace he'll probably get back up again and continue and be a threat - and give away a second token if he dies again.

I'm not sure if keeping your Warlord alive "matters" or not in 10th, but if you make him your Warlord you can probably have some fun with the Newfound Nemesis-stratagem as well. He can potentially give away 6 grudge tokens in this manner.

 

It's certainly an interesting play (not something you can say often looking through the index). However, it's not a good feeling when our tactics revolve around how easily/often we can get our units to die. Doesn't feel in keeping with the lore.

 

I'm not of the opinion that Votann should be a super elite force - which is what the ever increasing points of 9th pushed us to be. They're basically the military wing of a mining corporation. So they should be good - but not space marine good with their stats. I'd expect their weaponry to be better than that though (DOAT tech as others have pointed out). As it is, we shoot like guardsmen, with guns that are often worse than their Tau equivalents. Who apparently got the tech from us? 

 

Each time I go through the index the less I want to play with this army. Such a shame.

[TheVoidDragon]

53 minutes ago, Doobles88 said:

It's certainly an interesting play (not something you can say often looking through the index). However, it's not a good feeling when our tactics revolve around how easily/often we can get our units to die. Doesn't feel in keeping with the lore.

 

I'm not of the opinion that Votann should be a super elite force - which is what the ever increasing points of 9th pushed us to be. They're basically the military wing of a mining corporation. So they should be good - but not space marine good with their stats. I'd expect their weaponry to be better than that though (DOAT tech as others have pointed out). As it is, we shoot like guardsmen, with guns that are often worse than their Tau equivalents. Who apparently got the tech from us? 

 

Each time I go through the index the less I want to play with this army. Such a shame.

 

Their lore outright says that they "are trained as frequently and rigorously as the elite warriors of many other starfaring races.", though - and that when they dedicate themselves to something, they make sure to do it properly. To me that implies better than guardsmen. Even Sisters Noviates hit on a 3+ and they're trainees.

Edited June 21, 2023 by TheVoidDragon

[Doobles57]

19 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

 

Their lore outright says that they "are trained as frequently and rigorously as the elite warriors of many other starfaring races.", though - and that when they dedicate themselves to something, they make sure to do it properly. To me that implies better than guardsmen. Even Sisters Noviates hit on a 3+ and they're trainees.

Oh they should definitely be better than guardsmen. My point was that that's how well they shoot now. They should be above that, but not sure about them being space marine level of aptitude. Right now nothing really feels like it matches it lore.