Wh40k 10th Edition Leagues of Votann Index

[Lord Marshal]

15 hours ago, TheVoidDragon said:

Some of these rules are just absurd.  Especially the theming focusing on you playing in a way that loses you units and the Railguns pathetic range.

 

 

When the preview came out, I remember people being savaged (mostly not on B&C) for saying things along the line of, "all the interesting stuff from the codex has been stripped out, this is just a kneejerk reaction to 9th" but people were insisting up and down, no, it looks great and the full Index will be even better. Now it's apparent that's not the case, things are a lot quieter on that front. 

 

So going back to that point, I suspect the Index was just afore mentioned reaction to 9th and the codex being released around the same time they were probably finalising a lot of 10th content. So they ripped out a load of stuff, but didn't have the time/inclination to replace it with anything actually interesting. At this point, and I hate to say this, we'll be waiting for the codex to see what the new makeup of Votann mechanics will be, because right now it's so plain and boring and screams "we were worried Votann haters would have a bone going into 10th."

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[phandaal]

36 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

When the preview came out, I remember people being savaged (mostly not on B&C) for saying things along the line of, "all the interesting stuff from the codex has been stripped out, this is just a kneejerk reaction to 9th" but people were insisting up and down, no, it looks great and the full Index will be even better. Now it's apparent that's not the case, things are a lot quieter on that front.

 

Yeah. Sometimes people cannot (or do not want to) read the writing on the wall. Once the actual rules dropped... That is another story. Over on the Votann discord, one of the loudest "bro this looks awesome bro stop whining bro" people announced he was going Orks the day the Index dropped and has not been seen since.

 

42 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

So going back to that point, I suspect the Index was just afore mentioned reaction to 9th and the codex being released around the same time they were probably finalising a lot of 10th content. So they ripped out a load of stuff, but didn't have the time/inclination to replace it with anything actually interesting. At this point, and I hate to say this, we'll be waiting for the codex to see what the new makeup of Votann mechanics will be, because right now it's so plain and boring and screams "we were worried Votann haters would have a bone going into 10th."

 

I wonder if the Index did not have better rules, and then the rules team did a pass on it around the time they were reacting to the 9th Ed Codex backlash. Then as you say, they never got around to readjusting it after that.

 

In any case, whatever happened and whenever it happened, this Index is an obviously unfinished product.

[TheVoidDragon]

4 hours ago, Doobles88 said:

Oh they should definitely be better than guardsmen. My point was that that's how well they shoot now. They should be above that, but not sure about them being space marine level of aptitude. Right now nothing really feels like it matches it lore.

 

3+ is what space marines are at, but so are Eldar including Guardians, Stormtroopers/Kasrkin, plenty of GSC specialists, Space Marine scouts, Sisters of Battle including their Trainees etc. If the Kin are meant to be elite, which is what their lore says, then I think that's what they should be.

Edited June 21, 2023 by TheVoidDragon

[Lord Marshal]

2 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah. Sometimes people cannot (or do not want to) read the writing on the wall. Once the actual rules dropped... That is another story. Over on the Votann discord, one of the loudest "bro this looks awesome bro stop whining bro" people announced he was going Orks the day the Index dropped and has not been seen since.

 

I think I know who you're talking about. I found it funny when I realised a lot of the, "Votann look great bro, you're just too casual to understand how good they are" people have pretty much stopped posting entirely. The Art of War video being the dime people largely seemed to have spun on. Mind you, I've never been on a 40k Discord as toxic as the Votann one - probably due to the non-existent moderation - so I'm not exactly posting much these days either.

 

2 hours ago, TheVoidDragon said:

 

3+ is what space marines are at, but so are Eldar including Guardians, Stormtroopers/Kasrkin, plenty of GSC specialists, Space Marine scouts, Sisters of Battle including their Trainees etc. If the Kin are meant to be elite, which is what their lore says, then I think that's what they should be.

 

The posts defending Votann being WS/BS4+ "because they're citizen militias, they're not proper soldiers" being followed days later by 3+ Guardians did make me chuckle. More seriously, I guess GW's intention was that Votann are balanced around Judgement Tokens gradually making you functionally WS/BS3+ but then got wary of making JTs too easy to hand out...

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Trokair]

I am having my first game of 10^th tomorrow and I will be bringing 1k of LoV, I believe my opponent is WE, so we will see how that goes.

 

So far the list is at 960p so room for two Enhancements, I am thinking Wayfarer’s on the Champ, leaving just enough points for the Kahl to play Santa with a Long List.

• Kahl (bolter, fist)
• 10 Hearthkyn (Bolter, Missile, HYLas rotary)
• 10 Hearthkyn (Ion, Plasma beamer, M-rail)
• Einhy Champ (Hammer) + 5 Einhyr (Plasma, fist, Tele)
• 3 Pioneers (HYLas, Comms, Scanner)
• Sagitaur (HYLas) with 5 Beserks inside

[Trokair]

My opponent was indeed World Eaters. List was something like:

• 10 berserkers in a rhino with an Executioner
• 10 Jackals for the homefiled objective
• 1 Autocannon/Missile Dread
• Named Jugger lord with some eightbound

 

Game ended on turn 4 with over half of my stuff still around (though the champ did died twice) while the WE were wiped.

 

All in all the decrees to BS4 on a lot of things was not that noticeable as judgment tokens were usually around when needed. At this sized game the one from the Kahl each turn plus the half strength strat and the two on one unit at start of game was plenty.

 

The executioner did precision kill the Champ out of the middle of the unit, and we assumed that when he revived with the wayfarers he would not be attached any more (and became easy picking for the Jugger as a result).

[Lemondish]

2 hours ago, Trokair said:

The executioner did precision kill the Champ out of the middle of the unit, and we assumed that when he revived with the wayfarers he would not be attached any more (and became easy picking for the Jugger as a result).

 

It looks like that was answered in the rules commentary, which is pretty neat. It depends on whether the bodyguard unit remains. On page 11, under 'Returning Models to a Unit':

Quote

If a Leader model is destroyed and subsequently returned to the battlefield, and the Bodyguard unit they were attached to is on the battlefield, they must be returned to that unit to form an Attached unit once more (otherwise, they are returned as a separate unit).

 

Sounds like it would have given you a tad bit more play with him as a result, but based on what you said it doesn't sound like it would have shifted the game much anyway.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Lemondish

[Minsc]

Having played a few 10th games with my LoV now, this is how I feel about our units (in terms of internal balance, not saying that a "good" unit here is by any means equal to a good unit in say Eldar. LoV is currently low-tier army for sure):

 

Good:

 

- Khal (first one): 
Solid Leader, giving his unit Lethal Attacks and a 5++. Every LoV-list should contain at the very least one Khal due to Grim Efficiency due to how wonky it is to deal out tokens now. 
Option to deepstrike a unit of Warriors sounds fun but not sure if it's something I'd ever use. 

 

- Einhyr Hearthguard:
Easily the best unit in our codex. I can see why tournamentlists contain 3x10 of these. I prefer Volkite and Fists and with an attached Khal it's a really dangerous unit, and very tanky with 2+/5++ and the new "transhuman". The Grenade Launchers with blast eradicates any form of horde-unit. 

 

- Hernkyn Pioneers:

Not as good as they used to be, but still good. A fast and fairly shooty unit in an otherwise slow army. Scout and Outflank for added movementshenanigans.

 

- Sagitaur:

Initially I thought this was a stupid unit with a stupid specialrule (Blistering Advance). I still think Blistering Advance is a stupid rule that I will rarely use (being able to shoot with the 5 embarked Warriors will *never* be worth giving up the Sagitaurs own shooting for) but it might help to reach an objective in a pinch. After giving the Sagitaur a go however, I found it surprisingly tanky with its T10 and more importantly, the HYLas Beamcannon is an amazing weapon and adds some much needed "long range" (for LoV) anti-tank.
Splitting Warrior units into smaller units also means more judgement tokens. 

 

- Hekaton: 

Still good, especially with an Iron-Master nearby. Fire-Support seems tailormade for having 5 Hearthguard with Volkite embarked. I'm not too keen on the Heavy Magna-rail anymore though (1 shot that hits on a 3+ at best) is too swingy. Instead I've started favoring the SP Heavy Conversion Beamer, since it averages 3 hits on anything outside 12". Add tokens and it's surprisingly good against though targets, especially since the Hekaton ignores cover. 

 

- Enhancement: Appraising Glare: 

Easily the best Enhancement we have, I'd even say it's crucial now given how much harder it is to deal out tokens. I found that it basically added 2-3 (temporary) tokens every turn. 
(Yes, I'm aware of the obvious typo that technically makes it useless. My gaminggroup chose to ignore it.)

 

- Enhancement: A Long List: 
Solid enhancement on a Leader that attaches to say 10 Hearthguard. Can potentially result in several "new" tokens being added with some clever splitfire. 

 

Meh:

 

- Einhyr Champion:

Attaching him to a unit of Hearthguard is a trap, I much prefer attaching my Khal to my Hearthguard. He is faily cheap though, and is a big enough threat on his own to distract your opponent or cause some havoc if he's ignored. He's also cheap and gives away a token when he dies. Distraction-Champion.

 

- Khal (if more than one):

Still a good leader probably the best option we have to attach to both Warriors and Hearthguard. Looses alot of value after the first one though, since Grim Efficiency doesn't stack. 

 

- Brôkhyr Iron-master:

+1 to hit sounds good until you realize that it doesn't stack with tokens. He does bring 4 extra bodies to whatever unit he is attached to and he does repair stuff. He can even damage enemy vehicles in a pinch. Oh how I wish he handed out +1 BS instead...

 

- Hearthkyn Warriors:

BS5+ on some of their heavy weapons really hurt these guys, as did the Rail Rifle now having 18" range (really GW?). A decent unit which is quite tanky in cover, but don't expect them to do much other than grabbing objectives and you won't be disappointed.

 

- Enhancement: Wayfarer's Grace

A bit on the pricey side, but technically it will not only revive a character on 2+ but essentially means you hand out a token for "free" (or rather, for 25 pts). I put it on my distraction-Champion and it felt like a solid combination. 

 

Bad:

 

- Uthar the Destined:

An expensive Khal that gives up Lethal Hits for basically improved close combat stats and resilience? I'm probably missing something but I don't see the point of him at all.

 

- Grimnyr:

Not gonna lie, I'm not sure when and why I would attach a Gimnyr to a Warrior-squad over a second Khal or even an Iron-Master.
I'd rather have Lethal Hits and a 5++ on my Warriors over +1T and a once-per-game battleshock success. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

- Cthonian Berserks:
My first reaction: Hella overpriced. My second reaction: Why would I field these guys instead of simply bringing more Hearthguard? Expensive, slow and surprisingly squishy. They hurt against the right target, but have fun making sure they get there. At least they can chill in a Sagitaur.

 

- Brôkhyr Thunderkyn:

Bump them up to "Meh" if equipped with Grav-Cannons and you play in a vehicle-heavy meta. If you're equpping them with anything else, why not just field Pioneers instead?

 

- Enhancement: Grim Demeanour:
It's not bad, but I don't see myself ever taking this over Appraising Glare and/or A Long list.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Minsc

[Trokair]

17 hours ago, Minsc said:

- Brôkhyr Iron-master:

+1 to hit sounds good until you realize that it doesn't stack with tokens. He does bring 4 extra bodies to whatever unit he is attached to and he does repair stuff. He can even damage enemy vehicles in a pinch. Oh how I wish he handed out +1 BS instead...

 

I have been thinking of him as more of attach to a unit to go after none tokened enemies, while the rest of the army focuses on tokened enemies.

 

Also it would be nice if Cog and Corv models did not take up transport capacity. Right now attaching a Iron-Master or a Gandalf to a unit basically excludes them for getting in a transport due to the the little guys taking up so many spaces.

 

 

17 hours ago, Minsc said:

- Sagitaur:

Initially I thought this was a stupid unit with a stupid specialrule (Blistering Advance). I still think Blistering Advance is a stupid rule that I will rarely use (being able to shoot with the 5 embarked Warriors will *never* be worth giving up the Sagitaurs own shooting for) but it might help to reach an objective in a pinch. After giving the Sagitaur a go however, I found it surprisingly tanky with its T10 and more importantly, the HYLas Beamcannon is an amazing weapon and adds some much needed "long range" (for LoV) anti-tank.
Splitting Warrior units into smaller units also means more judgement tokens. 

 

Same, it did really well in my game, and I considered running a second empty as a battle tank. But unfortunately empty Sagis die of loneliness. Thanks Dedicated Transport keyword.

 

 

17 hours ago, Minsc said:

- Uthar the Destined:

An expensive Khal that gives up Lethal Hits for basically improved close combat stats and resilience? I'm probably missing something but I don't see the point of him at all.

 

Hearthguard? They are more likely to end up in a messy situation where the extra resilience might make him survive where a Kahl would not?

 

 

 

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, Trokair said:

 

Hearthguard? They are more likely to end up in a messy situation where the extra resilience might make him survive where a Kahl would not?

 

Sure, but you're in turn decreasing the lethality on the Hearthguard themselves by losing Lethal Hits on potentially 10 blast weapons (10D6+20 shots against 10man squads) and whatever other ranged and melee-weapon they're equipped with - and you're paying for the "privilege" since Uthar costs more than a regular Khal. 

 

I just don't think it's worth it by any measure. 

[Trokair]

As my initial collection of Votnn went from somewhere between 1,500 and 1,600 points to a flat 1,200 I have acquired some reinforcement to bring me back towards the 1,500 range (yes I know this edition doesn’t cater for 1,500 games, but I am old school).

 

So I now have my first Hekaton to build. I had not realised it had three missile options.

 

Which one is the one on the data card and is it worth having as a one shot weapon?   

[Minsc]

Nah, the missile is rather meh.
I find that the Scanner (ignores cover) far outweighs the missile in terms of usefulness. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Minsc