Characters/unit combinations

[Newbiticus]

Seems like a solid rule of thumb

[RenegadeKorps]

6x20 cultists with mark of tzeentch (including 10 heavy stubbers and 10 grenade launchers)

in a combo with hellbrute + abaddon

will inflict 29 wounds on Imperial knights at 24'' (even more in rapid fire range)

The Warden might be the most resilient unit in the game with its fnp and -1 damage, but we can kill one in a single turn at 24'' ! No CP needed. 

 

Do you have nearby 3x5 Havocs squads? That's another 22 wounds...

 

Death hex will make this even better ! 

 

The good thing is that your units are not specialized. They will murder anything. They can also move freely (near Abaddon, of course). Against high toughness targets, the heavy stubber is even better if moving and shooting at BS5+.

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by RenegadeKorps

[MegaVolt87]

1,000 to 1,500 is a different meta, 40k 8th ed onwards has been designed with 2k pts as the average. Boarding patrol seems like thats for small games now with combat patrol becoming set lists. What works in under 2k pts isn't going to be representative of what works in the average game of 2k pts. 

[abaumann]

@MegaVolt87

 

great point….almost different games between the point sizes..

[Doctor Perils]

11 hours ago, RenegadeKorps said:

10x10 cultists with mark of tzeentch (including 10 heavy stubbers and 10 grenade launchers)

in a combo with hellbrute + abaddon + death hex

will inflict 49 wounds on Imperial knights at 24'' (more with rapid fire)

The Warden might be the most resilient unit in the game with its fnp and -1 damage, but we can kill TWO IN A TURN at 24''. No CP needed. 

 

Do you have nearby 10x5 Legionaries with one reaper chaincannon per squad? That's another 25 wounds...

Or 3x5 Havocs squads? Another 30 wounds...

 

The limit of this is Death hex affecting one unit only, but the damage output is still high without it. 

 

The good thing is that your units are not specialized. They will murder anything. 

 

You can't have 10 of the same unit, battleline is 6 max - or am I missing something?

[Kaiju Soze]

1 hour ago, Doctor Perils said:

You can't have 10 of the same unit, battleline is 6 max - or am I missing something?

You're right, but you could run for of them at 20 models each.

[RenegadeKorps]

Yes, sorry, 5x20. At this point, I would go for 6x20.

Do you think a competitive list can be made with that? Aiming at 2000pts

 

6x20 cultists

Abaddon + 5 terminators
2 Helbrutes
and maybe a Nurgle Noctilith Crown (4++ for models within 9'') (nurgle for the stratagem, so the opponent can't target it, but if you see that he won't aim at the Crown, you can use the stratagem to protect Abaddon unit)

1565 pts for now

Then I'm thinking 5 terminators with the sorcerer (for death hex)

1845 pts

Edited July 3, 2023 by RenegadeKorps

[MegaVolt87]

19 minutes ago, RenegadeKorps said:

Yes, sorry, 5x20. At this point, I would go for 6x20.

Do you think a competitive list can be made with that? Aiming at 2000pts

 

6x20 cultists

Abaddon + 5 terminators
2 Helbrutes
and maybe a Nurgle Noctilith Crown (4++ for models within 9'') (nurgle for the stratagem, so the opponent can't target it, but if you see that he won't aim at the Crown, you can use the stratagem to protect Abaddon unit)

1565 pts for now

Then I'm thinking 5 terminators with the sorcerer (for death hex)

1845 pts

 

I think the sorc and x5 termi's won't be doing much, you already have Abaddon. I think you would be better off spending that remaining 435 pts on HS units or invest in wardogs. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by MegaVolt87

[Gree]

I'm not certain if I'm reading the rules right, but does an attached character attached to the Chosen gain that unit's advance and charge rule? That would limit potential characters to join them. Or am I reading the rules wrong?

[RenegadeKorps]

I have a question regarding those rules :

'' Mark of Khorne. Blood Fury: In the Fight phase, if this unit’s weapons gained the [LETHAL HITS] ability this phase as the result of a Dark Pact, each time a model in this unit makes an attack, an unmodified Hit roll of 5+ scores a Critical Hit. ''

 

My question is this : does this mean that if my model happens to have both Lethal Hits (via a Dark Pact) AND Sustained hits (via a Helbrute), I will score an additional auto-wounding hit on a roll of 5 too ?  It seems too strong. 

 

 

'' Weapons with [SUSTAINED HITS X] in their profile are known as Sustained Hits weapons. Each time an attack is made with such a weapon, if a Critical Hit is rolled, that attack scores a number of additional hits on the target as denoted by ‘x’. ''

 

 

EDIT : I found a partial answer in the Commentary. 

 

" Additional Hits: Some rules cause attacks to score additional hits on a Critical Hit (e.g. [SUSTAINED HITS]). If the attacking model is also benefiting from any other rules that trigger on a Critical Hit (e.g. [LETHAL HITS]), only the original attack benefits from those rules. Any additional hits scored as the result of a Critical Hit are automatically successful (see Automatically Successful).
Example: An attack with the [SUSTAINED HITS 1] and [LETHAL HITS] abilities scores a Critical Hit. That attack automatically wounds the target due to [LETHAL HITS], but it also scores one additional hit due to [SUSTAINED HITS 1]. This additional hit does not benefit from the [LETHAL HITS] ability, so the controlling player makes a Wound roll for it as normal. "

 

To answer my question : I will score an additional non-auto-wounding hit on a roll of 5 too. Still strong. 

 

In the end, the model gain the ability to score Critical hits on 5+. It means that with a helbrute nearby, there is NO difference between Slaanesh and Khorne, NO difference between Nurgle and Tzeentch.  

Edited July 4, 2023 by RenegadeKorps

[RenegadeKorps]

1 hour ago, Gree said:

I'm not certain if I'm reading the rules right, but does an attached character attached to the Chosen gain that unit's advance and charge rule? That would limit potential characters to join them. Or am I reading the rules wrong?

 

Yes. Since most of the time those special abilities affect 'that unit', they will affect any leader that joined it.

Other example : if Abaddon has joined a Tzeentch unit, you can use the Nurgle stratagem with all its benefits on that unit because it is a Nurgle unit (Abaddon has the keyword, hence the unit too). 

Edited July 3, 2023 by RenegadeKorps

[Gilbertus1]

1 hour ago, RenegadeKorps said:

 

" Additional Hits: Some rules cause attacks to score additional hits on a Critical Hit (e.g. [SUSTAINED HITS]). If the attacking model is also benefiting from any other rules that trigger on a Critical Hit (e.g. [LETHAL HITS]), only the original attack benefits from those rules. Any additional hits scored as the result of a Critical Hit are automatically successful (see Automatically Successful).
Example: An attack with the [SUSTAINED HITS 1] and [LETHAL HITS] abilities scores a Critical Hit. That attack automatically wounds the target due to [LETHAL HITS], but it also scores one additional hit due to [SUSTAINED HITS 1]. This additional hit does not benefit from the [LETHAL HITS] ability, so the controlling player makes a Wound roll for it as normal. "

 

To answer my question : I will score an additional non-auto-wounding hit on a roll of 5 too. Still strong. 

 

In the end, the model gain the ability to score Critical hits on 5+. It means that with a helbrute nearby, there is NO difference between Slaanesh and Khorne, NO difference between Nurgle and Tzeentch.  

Correct.

 

The mark makes criticals on a 5+ and both rules work on a critical.

Great for weapons that double-up natively, with the Tzeentch mark, (I'm running mostly Tzeentch for role-play reasons).

 

Obliterators horde-killing profile + MoT

Heavy Bolters + MoT

Reaper Autocannons +MoT

 

 

My choices for Character + Unit Combos are

 

1- Tzeentch Chosen + Tzeentch MoP 

 

Unit can advance and charge using the MoP +1 for both. MoT strengthens their bolters that are 2 shots now, and the MoP sniping 2 shot, 2/3 Damage "pistol" ;)

 

Additionally being able to fallback, shoot and charge enables the unit to fight and shoot each turn... meaning more pacts, meaning more opportunities for CP via Eye of Tzeentch... 2CP a turn is pretty good. Ans the icon reduces the chance of taking MW from the pact.

 

 

2- Undivided Dark Commune + Accursed Cultists

 

Commune gives 5++ to the unit which stacks with their 6+++ and the fact they regen models each command phase, so twice a game turn.

Undivided means I can use the strat to reroll all hits and wounds, (great with the mass of attacks they bring), and can stack that with the +1 to hit and wound the commune can give for a turn.

 

So against a unit of marines a full unit will have 

 

20 Attacks at 3+ to hit 3+ to wound AP0 D1

6D6 +12 attacks 3+ to hit 2+ to wound -1AP D2

 

With full rerolls, plus whatever attacks the commune brings lol

 

 

[RenegadeKorps]

2 hours ago, Gilbertus1 said:

 

2- Undivided Dark Commune + Accursed Cultists

 

Commune gives 5++ to the unit which stacks with their 6+++ and the fact they regen models each command phase, so twice a game turn.

Undivided means I can use the strat to reroll all hits and wounds, (great with the mass of attacks they bring), and can stack that with the +1 to hit and wound the commune can give for a turn.

 

So against a unit of marines a full unit will have 

 

20 Attacks at 3+ to hit 3+ to wound AP0 D1

6D6 +12 attacks 3+ to hit 2+ to wound -1AP D2

 

With full rerolls, plus whatever attacks the commune brings lol

 

 

I did not notice that this unit was strong and resilient. It's impressive. Thanks ! 

Your combo deals 78,5 wounds against Space Marine profiles. (100 pts of Accursed kill 41,3w of SM, while 100pts of SM gives your opponent 11 wounds. The Accursed cultists make four times their points in one assault. I included the Liber enhancement bonus.) 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by RenegadeKorps

[Gilbertus1]

35 minutes ago, RenegadeKorps said:

I did not notice that this unit was strong and resilient. It's impressive. Thanks ! 

Your combo deals 78,5 wounds against Space Marine profiles. (100 pts of Accursed kill 41,3w of SM, while 100pts of SM gives your opponent 11 wounds. The Accursed cultists make four times their points in one assault. I included the Liber enhancement bonus.) 

 

No problem. Thanks for doing the math on the attacks.

 

Oh I forgot to mention the Eye of Tzeentch works on dark pacts made in the opponent's turn, so combat / overwatch.

It may get FAQed to be one CP per turn, but for now if you have a unit that can shoot and melee it can bring in tons of CP. 

Then again, marking a melee unit (like chosen) as Tzeentch isn't optimal in terms of damage, swings and round-abouts. 

 

[MasterDeath]

Are choosen a melee unit? They can put out a good amount of short range Shooting. The lethal Hits dont mesh well with tzeentchs lethal Hits though.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yeah, they are good  - they each come with an accursed weapon (so our version of a power weapon).

 

In melee, they are comparable to possessed - same A, WS and S, but have 1 better AP in exchange for only doing 1 damage, plus they don't have possessed's ability to get [devestating wounds] when they dark pact.  So, they are generally better than possessed against most things with 1 wound, and worse against things with multiple wounds. 

 

And while they are slower, and therefore will have a harder time getting to their first combat, they can fall back & shoot + charge, meaning that (at least potentially) they can really get around.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Iron Father Ferrum]

8 hours ago, MasterDeath said:

Are choosen a melee unit? They can put out a good amount of short range Shooting. The lethal Hits dont mesh well with tzeentchs lethal Hits though.

I agree.  Tzeentch is a terrible mark for Chosen.  I kinda get it for the stock bolters, but the Lethal Hits are counter-intuitive with Devastating Wounds from the combi weapons.  If you're leaning into shooting, you'd do better with Nurgle for Sustained Hits.

[acrozatarim]

16 hours ago, Gilbertus1 said:

 

No problem. Thanks for doing the math on the attacks.

 

Oh I forgot to mention the Eye of Tzeentch works on dark pacts made in the opponent's turn, so combat / overwatch.

It may get FAQed to be one CP per turn, but for now if you have a unit that can shoot and melee it can bring in tons of CP. 

Then again, marking a melee unit (like chosen) as Tzeentch isn't optimal in terms of damage, swings and round-abouts. 

 

 

There is already a hard cap on extra CP per round in the core rules, so sadly the Eye of Tzeentch isn't such a CP machine.

[Gilbertus1]

5 hours ago, acrozatarim said:

 

There is already a hard cap on extra CP per round in the core rules, so sadly the Eye of Tzeentch isn't such a CP machine.

 

Rats. I missed that, ah well at least I get multiple chances to make it reliable 

[WatchCaptainNavar]

After a few iterations of iron warriors list tweaking as I get ready for my first game of 10th I’ve come up with the following combo squad that’ll be my only squad of legionaries in my 2k list as I dropped the other squads in favour of more havocs and terminators-

 

mark of slaneesh 

1x exalted champion

1x sorcerer 

10 legionaries -

2x heavy melee weapon & bolt pistol

6x bolt pistol & chainsword

heavy bolter

havoc autocannon 

icon

mark of nurgle

rhino

combi bolter

havoc launcher 

 

hopefully they’ll be a  mid board objectives counter punch after the lists fire power works over the unit they’re planning to charge. With the nurgle rhino they have both mobility and access to the dark obscuration strat. The exalted champion gives the unit +1 to hit, the sorcerer a -1 to be hit and witchfire, heavy bolter and the autocannon give them some ranged firepower should they find themselves camping an objective with nothing to charge.

the mark of slaneesh for exploding 5+ in melee will help when fighting on objectives with legionaries baked in wound rerolls.

 

if I could find an extra 5pts I’d probably change the sorcerer to a MoP but I can’t without having to rebuild a significant part of the list as I’m currently sat at 1995 pts.

[Gilbertus1]

On 7/5/2023 at 6:53 PM, WatchCaptainNavar said:

After a few iterations of iron warriors list tweaking as I get ready for my first game of 10th I’ve come up with the following combo squad that’ll be my only squad of legionaries in my 2k list as I dropped the other squads in favour of more havocs and terminators-

 

mark of slaneesh 

1x exalted champion

1x sorcerer 

10 legionaries -

2x heavy melee weapon & bolt pistol

6x bolt pistol & chainsword

heavy bolter

havoc autocannon 

icon

mark of nurgle

rhino

combi bolter

havoc launcher 

 

hopefully they’ll be a  mid board objectives counter punch after the lists fire power works over the unit they’re planning to charge. With the nurgle rhino they have both mobility and access to the dark obscuration strat. The exalted champion gives the unit +1 to hit, the sorcerer a -1 to be hit and witchfire, heavy bolter and the autocannon give them some ranged firepower should they find themselves camping an objective with nothing to charge.

the mark of slaneesh for exploding 5+ in melee will help when fighting on objectives with legionaries baked in wound rerolls.

 

if I could find an extra 5pts I’d probably change the sorcerer to a MoP but I can’t without having to rebuild a significant part of the list as I’m currently sat at 1995 pts.

 

If they are objective camping you may get more use from the Nurgle / Tzeentch marks and the shooty pact bonuses they bring. Nurgle strat also gives ranged defense, its fair to assume sitting on the home objective will mean your opponents dudes will be far away.

 

Or are you using the Slaanesh mark as a kind of threat to make your opponent reconsider going after that one objective?

Do you play people with lots of fast stuff / deep strike?

 

 

[WatchCaptainNavar]

1 hour ago, Gilbertus1 said:

 

If they are objective camping you may get more use from the Nurgle / Tzeentch marks and the shooty pact bonuses they bring. Nurgle strat also gives ranged defense, its fair to assume sitting on the home objective will mean your opponents dudes will be far away.

 

Or are you using the Slaanesh mark as a kind of threat to make your opponent reconsider going after that one objective?

Do you play people with lots of fast stuff / deep strike?

 

 

The plan is that they’ll use the rhino to start out of los and then get to wherever I need them mid board. While there in the rhino it can use the nurgle strat to keep them safer.

 

I picked the slaneesh mark for the better exploding melee hits, as I think combat legionnaires are still the go to thanks to the chainswords and unit ability. And also for the slaneesh strat to advance and charge so they have more potential mobility.

 

the heavy bolter and autocannon are in as they’re currently free and it gives them a bit of shooting, when wargear points return they’ll probably be the first thing cut.

 

for home objective admin I’ve got a unit of cultists who’ll make it sticky and then hopefully move up the board to make other objectives sticky as the rest of the army clears them.

 

for speed I’ve got deep striking units of 2 oblitorators and 5 terminators. I’m going to try both units with tzeentch for the healing strat, but I think the oblitorators would benefit more from nurgle, however keeping them alive has its own benefits. I’ll see how they play tonight and alter the marks accordingly.

 

then as a true iron warriors gun line castle I’ve got 3 units of havocs with either las cannons or autocannons, 2 forgefiends, vindicator, buffing hellbrute all with mark of nurgle and a warpsmith for buffing and healing

 

the plan is to shoot everything with extreme prejudice then from turn 2 have the deep strikers take on the opponents deployment zone and the legionaries, vindicator and one of the havocs contest midboard objectives.

 

I think I’m playing eldar tonight, so if all else fails I can get my excuses about OP space elves in early.

 

when I’ve got time I’ll start a thread for my iron warriors army as they’re hopefully going to be my focus for early 10th.