10th edition tournament results - it doesn't look good

[Karhedron]

Pretty sure 10E is not unsalvagable. My friend and I played his Grey Knights against my Eldar last month and the result was pretty predictable. We are having another game next week with the new points values. I expect it to be a lot closer this time.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

To be fair, AoS was unsalvageable in its first iteration. They basically had to scrap it and do it over with 2nd edition.

 

Yeah, I often wonder how many AoS defenders, not that I'm calling anyone here that they exist elsewhere, actually were around for version 1.

 

That it was released by an actual company, that is the leader in the TT miniature space, is still comical.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Scribe

[SkimaskMohawk]

34 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Yeah, I often wonder how many AoS defenders, not that I'm calling anyone here that they exist elsewhere, actually were around for version 1.

 

That it was released by an actual company, that is the leader in the TT miniature space, is still comical.

 

I personally liked AoS 1st post GHB more than launch 2nd. Endless spells, realm bonuses, and the CP were a bit much for me, and it led me to drop interest in 3rd. 

 

But yes, stuff was salvaged, though one could argue that the rules changes required are so drastic that the original design was not actually salvageable.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

Yeah, I often wonder how many AoS defenders, not that I'm calling anyone here that they exist elsewhere, actually were around for version 1.

 

That it was released by an actual company, that is the leader in the TT miniature space, is still comical.

 

I still remember reading the "rules" for the first time at the FLGS. We were all standing around, owner included, like "this has to be a joke, right?"

 

Then when we realized it was not a joke, it was "what the hell is wrong with these people?" 

[DemonGSides]

AoS on launch was a fine system except for all the baked in jokey stuff, like beard length and stuff like that.  If me and my buds want to introduce a zany house rule, we will, we don't need some weirdo's from across the world telling us how to have fun.

 

The demo game I played when it was just coming out was actually pretty fun, but I never played WHFB so I won't comment on that side of it.  I don't think 40k feels anything like that, after playing a handful of 10th ed games.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Friendly reminder that this isn't an AoS board.

[phandaal]

4 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Friendly reminder that this isn't an AoS board.

 

Yep. Just mentioned it in the context of GW releasing something that legitimately had to be scrapped and redone. It can happen and has happened.

 

If this is the case with 10th edition (not sold on that, even if I do think it is a beta product), then they will recover even if it takes some time.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

AoS on launch was a fine system except for all the baked in jokey stuff, like beard length and stuff like that.  If me and my buds want to introduce a zany house rule, we will, we don't need some weirdo's from across the world telling us how to have fun.

 

Come on bro. lol

 

Moving on I guess, but thats a laugh.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

Come on bro. lol

 

Moving on I guess, but thats a laugh.

No really, it's the same problem we have now. Compare the Leviathan box or Combat Patrol to the AoS launch box; they're curated experiences of what the game is/was intended to be like. The AoS launch box was a lot of fun, Leviathan/Combat Patrol is a lot of fun.

 

It's when the new paradigm hit the old armies that everything fell apart.* 

 

 

*It definitely doesn't help that in AoS case, management overheard the joke rules and thought they were hilarious and should be published.

[Scribe]

56 minutes ago, jaxom said:

No really, it's the same problem we have now. Compare the Leviathan box or Combat Patrol to the AoS launch box; they're curated experiences of what the game is/was intended to be like. The AoS launch box was a lot of fun, Leviathan/Combat Patrol is a lot of fun.

 

It's when the new paradigm hit the old armies that everything fell apart.* 

 

*It definitely doesn't help that in AoS case, management overheard the joke rules and thought they were hilarious and should be published.

 

If GW is so institutionally stupid, to release a rule set that only functions starting from ground zero in terms of their primary product (it aint the rules!) for a user base which has DECADES of material...then they are even worse than I thought.

 

I dont care about the launch boxes. AoS on release, the core rules, the one where 'just start placing units' and 'measure from wherever' and 'bases, what bases' where actual issues?

 

That was :cuss:, and ANY OTHER COMPANY that released a product like that, would have sunk. Its actually a testament to GW's domination that they could shrug off such a pathetic effort, 40K/HH just kept on carrying the company on its back.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

7 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

To be fair, AoS was unsalvageable in its first iteration. They basically had to scrap it and do it over with 2nd edition.

I remember when they tried to make it hokey. If you have a beard and play duardin (fake dwarves) you got a bonus. If you had a mug or fancy hat....you got a bonus.

 

Orruks got a bonus if you stood up and yelled "Waaaaagh"

 

I'm damn near certain their was something If you played vampire counts at night versus the day...but that's probably wrong and an over reaction to how piss poor the rules were when we first nuked WHFB.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

16 hours ago, jaxom said:

Yeah, the only other option is to make each build (including no upgrades) meaningful and worthwhile. There’s no sign of this happening though.

 

I think the only way they can really make power level work is by getting rid of the options. Either set loadouts or changing the rules to reflect an approximation of the squad's capabilities with the actual kit options not really doing anything. I don't really think that is the direction they should go but that's just my opinion.

 

10 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Yep. Just mentioned it in the context of GW releasing something that legitimately had to be scrapped and redone. It can happen and has happened.

 

If this is the case with 10th edition (not sold on that, even if I do think it is a beta product), then they will recover even if it takes some time.

 

I agree that they redo things and that it can work, but I don't think that they release beta products. They make the same mistakes to often for me for me to view it as part of process. For example in AoS disciples of Tzeentch had a mechanic similar to fate dice and had a unit of archers on discs that basically had devasting wounds. It was OP but that didn't stop them from giving that ability to Eldar. They also had experience with Miracle dice from SoB that could have drawn on but they didn't. 

[phandaal]

10 hours ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

I agree that they redo things and that it can work, but I don't think that they release beta products. They make the same mistakes to often for me for me to view it as part of process. For example in AoS disciples of Tzeentch had a mechanic similar to fate dice and had a unit of archers on discs that basically had devasting wounds. It was OP but that didn't stop them from giving that ability to Eldar. They also had experience with Miracle dice from SoB that could have drawn on but they didn't.

 

It does seem like they reused the homework they did elsewhere. Nothing wrong with that in principle, if something works then learn from it. But yeah, if they are not learning from mistakes and making adjustments for the fact that their systems are very different games, that is a big problem.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Small sample size, but I just got done with a 12-man RTT.  Black Templars absolutely smashed everyone to take the top by a long shot, with Imperial Knights a strong second and World Eaters taking third and Death Guard at 4th.  The two Aeldari armies placed 5th & 6th, with one 2-0 and one 1-1-1.  The commonalities in the two armies were Wraithguard, Warp Spiders, War Walkers, Shadow Specters, and an Autarch Wayleaper.  One ran the Yncarne, one ran both the Yncarne and the Avatar of Khaine.  The Wraith Knights and Fire Prisms that dominated these same tables a month ago?  Vanished into thin air.

[appiah4]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:35 PM, Xenith said:

 

Like, I'm sure a lot of people said that about 8th. And AoS. 

 

Well, as it turns out AoS was basically unplayable prior to GHB which basically updated the edition to 1.5 before AoS2 rolled out, I don't think that even needs to be justified. 

 

As for 8E, it was a big rush job and the codex treadmill kept churning out messy material after messy material which ended up getting FAQ'ed in record time and some of it was so bad that even FAQs got FAQ'ed, so often in fact that I no longer had any idea what rule was current anymore after a point.  It also introduced things like Stratagems with obviously no proper testing, and they obliterated any sense of game balance in many cases - that edition got sorted out in 9E, so I rest my case..

 

You may not like it, you may even disagree with it, but GW is a pretty TERRIBLE games company.  One look at these results should be enough to convince anyone..

Edited September 11, 2023 by appiah4

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On 9/8/2023 at 9:35 AM, Xenith said:

 

Like, I'm sure a lot of people said that about 8th. And AoS. 

I believe it's salvageable; But:

 

I was cautious about the beginning of 8th. When we moved away from initiative, weapon skill, and implemented the simple BS system, I could see the writing on the wall they wanted to turn the game into AoS.

 

I liked the game initially, until Blood Angels and Raven Guard smash captains popped up everywhere as 165 point missiles that could solo knights and primarchs.

 

10th edition has a lot of mistakes they should have learned from prior editions. But they have not. It's why Wraithknights were straight deleting entire infantry units with 1 shot, because of fate dice and devastating wounds/mortal wounds.

 

In my opinion they did not hold true to their promise they were going to reduce mortal wounds and re-rolls en masse. 

 

But devastating wounds made mortal wounds more frequent than ever. Now devastating wounds are technically better than mortals due to bypassing FnP rolls on MWs, and moved to the end of the wound pool. Everything is a mess.

 

It's just slowly being reworked, when they could've just let 9th continue another year to work out all this clutter.

[Zoatibix]

@Dont-Be-Haten hits the nail on the head. They wanted to avoid the MW spam of the previous edition…but promptly introduced a mechanic that made MW more prevalent. 
 

They don’t seem to sit down and try to think stuff through.

[appiah4]

23 minutes ago, Zoatibix said:

@Dont-Be-Haten hits the nail on the head. They wanted to avoid the MW spam of the previous edition…but promptly introduced a mechanic that made MW more prevalent. 
 

They don’t seem to sit down and try to think stuff through.

They  very likely a) don't play their own games b) think the game is a means to sell models rather than a product by itself c) both

Edited September 11, 2023 by appiah4

[phandaal]

10 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

They  very likely a) don't play their own games b) think the game is a means to sell models rather than a product by itself c) both

Honestly, they probably are just not very good at understanding the game.

 

They never seem to really grasp the power of cross-unit buffs, or what kind of weapons/abilities should be on cheap units, or what the value of certain stats really is, or how powerful some abilities/strats are. Et cetera.

 

It seems like they have a very surface-level grasp of how things work as a whole. Unfortunate, since they are the people writing the rules.

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I meant to add; local 1 day tournament 3 rounds saw LoV place 1st, BA 2nd, GK 3rd I believe.

 

Unsure of other armies, Aeldari placed 5th? Had a rough game 1 only scoring 42 but maxed out points on both game 2 and 3 with 100. They were the only player to max points more than once.

[Rain]

43 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Honestly, they probably are just not very good at understanding the game.

 

They never seem to really grasp the power of cross-unit buffs, or what kind of weapons/abilities should be on cheap units, or what the value of certain stats really is, or how powerful some abilities/strats are. Et cetera.

 

It seems like they have a very surface-level grasp of how things work as a whole. Unfortunate, since they are the people writing the rules.

 

Corporate considers the game to be for children so initial balance isn’t a priority. Kids are okay with constant patches to Fortnite, (or whatever they are playing these days) so GW emulates the model as much as they can, allowing them to save money on playtesting.

 

Beta at best releases, constant balance changes, a deluge of “DLC” (Arks of Omen, etc.), and a 3 year “expansion cycle.” Everything you know and love from MMO’s and modern AAA shovelware shoehorned into an inherently analog format.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On 9/8/2023 at 11:26 AM, phandaal said:

 

Yep. Just mentioned it in the context of GW releasing something that legitimately had to be scrapped and redone. It can happen and has happened.

 

If this is the case with 10th edition (not sold on that, even if I do think it is a beta product), then they will recover even if it takes some time.

Remember the 6th to 6.5 edition change before 7th came out?

[Karhedron]

The latest Metawatch results are in and they actually look very good. Eldar are still a bit strong and DE a bit weak but everyone else is sitting pretty much in the Goldilocks zone. This is actually looking pretty healthy and a surprising improvement over where the meta was just 3 months ago.

 

[TrawlingCleaner]

There's still some problem areas for sure but it's looking much healthier than previously. I'm glad they've mentioned internal balance too, there's a gulf between units in a few indexes like Votann, Drukhari etc where there's a good few picks that really are wasted points. I think there's a few units in CSM, Aeldari and the Votann indexes that need some touching up to bring them down a tad.

Anecdotally, games against Aeldari with my CSM and Drukhari have felt much much better and closer than they were before and the game is much enjoyable as a result.

 

[Karhedron]

Given that all but two of the factions are now in the 45-55% winrate range, my hunch (and hope) is that they will go for the light-touch approach going forwards. The impression I get is that they are looking to fine tune things rather than upset the apple cart.