Legions Imperialis Legions Imperialis

[Marshal Rohr]

43 minutes ago, Rejects of Anvilus said:

The only problem with this is that it seems like wishful thinking. We had all this when Adeptus Titanicus came out, with people wanting xenos titans then. That game by everything I have seen counts as having done very well, and did we get xenos? No. Instead we have got another game which is just imperial armies. So my personal view is that if we make this succeed then we may get yet another heresy only game instead of something with xenos. 
 

Also I think asking xenos players to buy imperial stuff, just in case they may make what they want in the future is a little off. If GW want those players to buy into it then they should make something for them. But this is just my view.

Are there really that many pure Xenos players? 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm sure there's wishful thinking involved in my processes here. I'm just so stoked I stopped caring about 40K 10th edition.

 

But I do see Epic/Legions Imperialis as an extension to Adeptus Titanicus, rather than a new game. It's the logical extension on the back of that success.

[ZeroWolf]

I plan on giving it a go this year all depending on finances, otherwise I'll jump in next year. I always wanted to play epic in a more official capacity.

[DuskRaider]

6 hours ago, Darnok said:

Large banners of Knights feel right at home in LI for me. I am sure Knights will be able to fulfill a variety of roles. I am equally sure GW wants to promote as many cross-sales of previously AT-only models as possible. Now they just need to get them back in store...

STOP. I can only paint so many Knight :(

 

For real though, I hope we see Knight House rules that are more expansive and less restrictive than Titanicus. Their lack of complexity in AT is hindered by their incrediblystrict Banner and cohesion rules. It’s already an uphill battle trying to take on a Titan Maniple proper. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

With Titan rules being simplified they may become comparatively less restrictive. 

Or not, sounds like a full change in rules so anything could happen. 

 

We can see two Warhounds can be taken, so maniples are not a thing, maybe Banners,Lances,Houses won't either. But maybe they will....

[CL_Mission]

4 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

I don't think you can get any other hersey games though. They've already done a rule set for Aeronautica in HH.

 

I'd argue that AT doing well is why we're getting IL.

Battle fleet: Horus Heresy edition

[MithrilForge]

52 minutes ago, CL_Mission said:

Battle fleet: Horus Heresy edition

Lets Add "Chess The Heresy Board"- with Blue and Red pieces, that's another set that has the same pieces on both sides  but there wont be resin expansions for this...

 

jokes aside, I'm hoping "30K Epic" (I cant call it legions Imperialis or LI  )  does really well, My Gaming mate's have been very decent and supportive about it and said

"If you buy it and paint it ...We'll gladly play it..." How nice of them... 

 

Since i have a fair few...I just want/Hope the Flyers will be valuable assets and not just token elements of the game... 

 

M.  

[Urauloth]

1 hour ago, CL_Mission said:

Battle fleet: Horus Heresy edition

We can but hope. This one would be interesting because we'd see a mix of what we think of as "Chaos" and "Imperial" ship designs all over the place, as well as intermediate designs and things that are extinct or vanishingly rare by M41. We'd also have a whole load of bigger ships. Really it has a ton of potential. Of course, I'd still argue the Era Indomitus would be better for reviving BF, but this is straying off topic.

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

With Titan rules being simplified they may become comparatively less restrictive. 

Or not, sounds like a full change in rules so anything could happen. 

 

We can see two Warhounds can be taken, so maniples are not a thing, maybe Banners,Lances,Houses won't either. But maybe they will....

I think they are going to do something like the Age of Darkness Force Organization where your ‘Primary Detachment’ is a Battalion of Tanks and Infantry drawn from Solar Aux, Marines, and eventually Mech and then you can add support detachments of Super Heavy Tanks, Titans, or Flyers prt ‘Primary Detachment’. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Thanks for that, I have never played HH/AoD v1 nor v2.

 

I'm hoping there will be the ability to theme forces so mine and my sons are not Chess forces. Similar forces are a better measure of skill than 40k's buy a list (Eldar) to win, but too much too samey is a tad drab.

 

But I'll buy so much stuff it won't really matter 

We have agreed that if possible he will go for Navy and Guard and I'll go Marines, AdMech and Agents are on the fence....(all names for 30k factions elude me at work).

[SkimaskMohawk]

42 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Thanks for that, I have never played HH/AoD v1 nor v2.

 

I'm hoping there will be the ability to theme forces so mine and my sons are not Chess forces. Similar forces are a better measure of skill than 40k's buy a list (Eldar) to win, but too much too samey is a tad drab.

 

 

 

Lol it's not the 4th edition marine list where there were very few options; you can have some extraordinarily different lists with the Legion list in 30k. Mass drop pods is a very different style to air cavalry lists, and mass termites is middle ground between the two styles. Honestly, the only way 40k managed to beat 30k in build diversity was by completely throwing out the FoC. If the Legion list is translated properly to epic, the only reasons why playing into the same faction feels samey should be either terrible imbalance, or just lack of money to expand the forces. 

[DuskRaider]

This. 30K was / is ridiculously diverse in how you can build even a single Legion force, let alone 18 different ones and the separate forces as well. I’m hoping this translates to Epic 30K as well, I’d love to run an Epic sized version of my 30K Cataphractii force in Spartans but on a much larger scale (but still… smaller…). 
 

[Urauloth]

As much as I'm looking forward to painting some tiny Death Guard, knowing that you can mix legions is going to make it hard to resist branching out and including some of the other colour schemes. Iron Warriors and Sons of Horus would look really nice at this scale.

[spessmarine]

4 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

This. 30K was / is ridiculously diverse in how you can build even a single Legion force, let alone 18 different ones and the separate forces as well. I’m hoping this translates to Epic 30K as well, I’d love to run an Epic sized version of my 30K Cataphractii force in Spartans but on a much larger scale (but still… smaller…). 
 

 

And this is where a policy of no model, no rules can be a massive bummer for the actual game part of miniature wargaming.

Hopefully specialist games has some leeway but I doubt they'll encourage any sort of proxying. Which makes anemic faction rosters a pain point, especially compared to existing and fan-run equivalents.

[Petitioner's City]

40 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

 

And this is where a policy of no model, no rules can be a massive bummer for the actual game part of miniature wargaming.

Hopefully specialist games has some leeway but I doubt they'll encourage any sort of proxying. Which makes anemic faction rosters a pain point, especially compared to existing and fan-run equivalents.

 

If you play Necromunda or indeed Horus Heresy you'll know "no models no rules" doesn't apply to their work :) 

[Rik Lightstar]

9 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

With Titan rules being simplified they may become comparatively less restrictive. 

Or not, sounds like a full change in rules so anything could happen. 

 

We can see two Warhounds can be taken, so maniples are not a thing, maybe Banners,Lances,Houses won't either. But maybe they will....

 

I can see Maniples and Houses still being a feature as GW likes to reward taking "formations" of things so taking any number of Titans or Knights outside of their parent formations will get those pieces into your force but taking a Household or Maniple will unlock bonuses for meeting the restrictions.

 

Similarly I can see them rewarding specific formations of Marines such as Companies while still allowing you to add a small or ad hoc selection of them to another force.

 

My view is that formation bonuses should be in the form of "Command Benefits" such as improved chances to receive certain orders, "Activation Control" where a formation can chain together a couple of activations, or "Objective Interactions" where they are better at performing mission critical tasks. It should only be in very rare cases that they change the raw combat effectiveness or resilience of the units in a formation.

 

Rik

[apologist]

13 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Are there really that many pure Xenos players? 

 

This is a vicious cycle scenario. Less support from GW; less visibility; less apparent demand; less support from GW.

 

It's also a bit reductive – the same argument could be made for any Imperial faction: why make Solar Auxilia (or Talons of the Emperor, or Adeptus Mechanicus; or Imperial Guard) when more Space Marines could be made?

 

I agree with @Rejects of Anvilus:

[...]my personal view is that if we make this succeed then we may get yet another heresy only game instead of something with xenos. 

Also I think asking xenos players to buy imperial stuff, just in case they may make what they want in the future is a little off. If GW want those players to buy into it then they should make something for them. But this is just my view.

 

For my part, I'm interested in seeing xenos (in both Adeptus Titanicus and Epic: Legions) for a couple of reasons:

• Including more people. There are plenty of players who have no interest whatsoever in an Imperial civil war; and their presence doesn't preclude the players who are from playing the civil war.
• Visual variety. The physical appearance of a tabletop game is a key part of its appeal; and when you're working with such tiny figures, having obvious differences helps a lot both in practical terms and aesthetics. Paint scheme goes a long way, but the difference between a Lungbursta and a Falcon is much clearer than two Predators in different colours.
• Historical reasons. Epic has a pedigree of reflecting the different ways different species fight really well. It was also a game that had much more even representation of different armies than 40k.

[Nova-V]

14 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Are there really that many pure Xenos players? 

A good third of my gaming group is.  Even as someone who plays Imperial only in 40K (Guard and Sisters) the lack of Xenos is one of the things that puts me off getting into the Heresy.  I might play Imperial but I like a variety of opponents, there is much less variety in list building when there are limited opponents.  This is somewhat exacerbated by Chaos also being much closer to Imperium at this point in the setting.  There are few of the unique and corrupted units that make playing against Chaos a different prospect to Marines.  This is in no way to disparage those who enjoy HH, it's simply been a blocker for me so is likely to unfortunately be a blocker for LI as well.

[Captain Idaho]

We need to bare in mind, we're building a community from the ground up right now, borrowing the core from old fans and some AI and AT players to prop it up. We need to build on this and so does Games Workshop.

 

The bottom line is, Xenos sales just aren't enough to guarantee a game's survival. I do acknowledge that if such factions got additional support they'd do better, but this is a new game. To establish it as a long term game is a question of the numbers and reducing risk. It's an obvious risk to throw massive resources into the game and times are turbulent after all.

 

Marines sell. We know that. I'm playing Xenos in 40K but I'm aware of it Marines being the BIG THING.

 

As time goes by, if we have a decent and thriving game you never know what comes down the line. But we need to get there first.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Joe]

As someone put it to me; the amount of time and effort they'd need to start pushing Xenos miniatures out in significant quantities would require them to pull staff from other work, with the possibility that an entire system would need to be axed. Forge World has expanded quite a bit in the last few years, but that's largely to support the systems that are already there as they ramped up in popularity.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

I have looked at these reveals long and hard. To me they look great.

 

Unfortunately there is absolutely no chance that I will be investing in this on top of my multiple 40k armies, and my 30k Legion.

 

I wish this had been released years ago when Titanicus initially dropped. I was feeling a lot of hobby fatigue and low motivation during that period. This could have sparked something. 

 

I simply hope that GW manage this well, and support it going forward so that the people who invest can be rewarded.

[Marshal Rohr]

Thats why if we want Xenos, we need to be buying armies of Imperials at launch and expanding them with new releases. We won’t ever know what metrics GW uses to develop product, but the fact they went out of their way to add resin Aeronautica models after release means they saw enough sales they wanted to try and squeeze some more out with limited resin print runs. That’s with Covid smothering Aeronautica in its crib. 

[Captain Idaho]

I totally agree. GW is gonna view it as a business; if it sells they'll expand it.

[Redcomet]

46 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

We need to bare in mind, we're building a community from the ground up right now, borrowing the core from old fans and some AI and AT players to prop it up. We need to build on this and so does Games Workshop.

 

The bottom line is, Xenos sales just aren't enough to guarantee a game's survival. I do acknowledge that if such factions got additional support they'd do better, but this is a new game. To establish it as a long term game is a question of the numbers and reducing risk. It's an obvious risk to throw massive resources into the game and times are turbulent after all.

 

Marines sell. We know that. I'm playing Xenos in 40K but I'm aware of it Marines being the BIG THING.

 

As time goes by, if we have a decent and thriving game you never know what comes down the line. But we need to get there first.

 
With this logic GW would be better off axing all Xenos factions from 40k too. Only making marines and marine based games because they sell more is a circular logic that many companies have fallen into, and have either ended them entirely or left us customers with subpar cookie cutter product.

20 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I totally agree. GW is gonna view it as a business; if it sells they'll expand it.

AT sold by all accounts, and yet no Xenos. 

[Captain Idaho]

8 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

 
With this logic GW would be better off axing all Xenos factions from 40k too. Only making marines and marine based games because they sell more is a circular logic that many companies have fallen into, and have either ended them entirely or left us customers with subpar cookie cutter product.

 

No, because 40K is an established and thriving game. So they can it expand much more safely with more chance of success. 

 

8 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

AT sold by all accounts, and yet no Xenos. 

 

No, we went a step further than Xenos into Epic. So a larger win than anyone thought would happen.