Legions Imperialis Legions Imperialis

[Captain Idaho]

18 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Not sure how the various epic editions worked, but they're saying it's basically power level for units?

 

The differences need to be realllly pronounced with no overlap to make it work. I think titans will really showcase any issues. 

 

At this scale, it's generally pay for your units not their weapons. It looks a little like old old epic with the unit cards.

 

Some large scale weapons might cost but I'm thinking not for most if not all.

 

I don't mind that. This is the sort of game where paying 3pts for Kratos sponson Heavy Bolters vs 4pts for Lascannons would be a chore across an army.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

If invuls in LI work like Armageddon, they're in effect a FNP.

It also depends on what steadfast means. In EA, terminators had 'reinforced armour' so could re-roll failed saves. 

 

 

[Valkyrion]

I'm surprised at the general omission of Volkite, given its only niche is 30k proper, yet the new Warhound is going to have it.

Maybe things like Haywire, Deflagrate, Concussive will be restricted to titan level weapons. 

[apologist]

Looks straightforward enough – but then a lot is very familiar from previous editions, so old players will have an advantage there.

 

Legions looks like an evolution of SM2; basically ignoring the changes of E40k and E:A. The mechanics of orders, progression and even how firing priority works (First Fire going before Advance Fire, for example) are straight from SM2.

 

Army building is less directly comparable to SM2, but interesting to see the return of cards. Here, the army building looks like a hybrid of SM2 (fixed company cards and bolt-on support cards) and E:A (limited customisation).

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by apologist

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

10 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

At this scale, it's generally pay for your units not their weapons. It looks a little like old old epic with the unit cards.

 

Some large scale weapons might cost but I'm thinking not for most if not all.

 

I don't mind that. This is the sort of game where paying 3pts for Kratos sponson Heavy Bolters vs 4pts for Lascannons would be a chore across an army.

 

Im not necessarily saying full granularity; you don't need to be able to swap the hull guns, sponsons, and turret on the Kratos for varying points each. But maybe "anti tank build" and "infantry build" could be separated?

 

Like, stuff is inevitably better than other stuff; a major complaint of 40k is how power level is just...not good for representing options.

[Marshal Rohr]

The guns not having a fixed price doesn’t seem like it’s going to have the impact weapon choices do in 28mm. The Bunker Buster rule seems like the reason you’d take the Melta Cannon, because of the 8 inch range, and if you’re going to do that mixing load outs seems like you’ll start spreading what your units do too thinly (which is appropriate for this scale). So for 200 points or whatever you get two two long cannons laying down fire as your Predators and Sicarans get into engagement range OR you have two Bunker Buster Kratos leading the column with the Predators and Sicarans engage ant-tank infantry and fast moving vehicles. Both roles are thematic but you don’t want a squadron of Kratos doing both or you have an idle tank. 
 

Similarly I imagine when we see things like the Thunderbolt giving them the Fury cannon means they’re best for Ground Attack but the Autocannons will boost their ability to intercept or Vice versa. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[apologist]

Terminology does seem a bit opaque. Doubtless it’ll all become familiar, but something like ‘stands’ or ‘unit’ (to encompass both infantry and tanks) seems a better term than ‘models’ when describing Detachments.

[Sete]

I like these little previews and it's winning me over despite my dislike for resins. Might get the launch box.

[01RTB01]

38 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

I know in isolation you can't really judge, but 1 wound seems very removable based on the profiles we've seen.

Like, 8 Tactical Squad bases hitting on 5's (so, 3), saving on 4's removes 1 (.5) terminators. 

Would 40 tactical marines kill 5 cataphractii in 30k without rapid firing or furying?

In fairness, if you think about Istvan and how many marines disappeared in seconds...

 

Epic is more abstract than 28mm heresy. The bigger it gets, the more it'll be like this.

 

With my dice, I'd highly likely lose 5 terms to 40 marines lol.

 

 

 

 

[01RTB01]

58 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Not sure how the various epic editions worked, but they're saying it's basically power level for units?

 

The differences need to be realllly pronounced with no overlap to make it work. I think titans will really showcase any issues. 

Honestly, I wouldn't worry.

 

Alternative activations plus the orders, it'll be fine. 

 

If you're getting into the micro then 28mm is where you'd probably be happier. Also changing points for a land raider vs points for lascannons or heavy bolters etc... It'd be a huge, and arguably pointless faff for the designers to manage it at weapon points levels. 

 

Regardless of what designers do, there'll always be people within a group that'll abuse the rules/ options and those that play for fun/ theme. There's probably some in between too. 

[Marshal Rohr]

56 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

I know in isolation you can't really judge, but 1 wound seems very removable based on the profiles we've seen.

Like, 8 Tactical Squad bases hitting on 5's (so, 3), saving on 4's removes 1 (.5) terminators. 

Would 40 tactical marines kill 5 cataphractii in 30k without rapid firing or furying?

At this scale it’s 40 tactical Marines engaging 20 Terminators in shooting over the six turns of a normal AoD game in one turn of LI, so five dying fits the scale. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

Alternative activations plus the orders, it'll be fine. 

 

If you're getting into the micro then 28mm is where you'd probably be happier. Also changing points for a land raider vs points for lascannons or heavy bolters etc... It'd be a huge, and arguably pointless faff for the designers to manage it at weapon points levels. 

 

I mean, AT also has alternate activation, orders, and a potentially very large array of models to apply granularity across in knight households...and they have individual points. And the worst options cost less points. 

[Scribe]

I just want the Titan's and Knights back in stock. Seriously GW what the hell are you doing...

 

(Yes, I know its reboxing...)

[Marshal Rohr]

17 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I just want the Titan's and Knights back in stock. Seriously GW what the hell are you doing...

 

(Yes, I know its reboxing...)

I broke out my scenery last night to see what I need to order and it’s all OOS 

 

 

As an aside about scenery I dropped 240 on Titanicus terrain boxes and it’s really gonna be pricey to do an intact city. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[DuskRaider]

45 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I just want the Titan's and Knights back in stock. Seriously GW what the hell are you doing...

 

(Yes, I know its reboxing...)

It’s more than just reboxing. Most of the AT products were out of stock even before LI was announced, they would cease production on things like transfer sheets and it was almost impossible to get your hands on data slates, etc. in the best of times. 

[Rik Lightstar]

44 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I mean, AT also has alternate activation, orders, and a potentially very large array of models to apply granularity across in knight households...and they have individual points. And the worst options cost less points. 

 

AT is a Skirmish Game in reality, it has lots of detail focus and resource management for each individual game piece. 

 

With a "standard" AT game being around 1750 points +/- 250 you're typically only looking at 3-8 Titans with maybe a smattering of Knights. Knight Households are a bit different, but not massively when you consider each Banner of Knights to be the equivalent of a Titan selection rather than viewing them as individuals. 

 

LI is a mass combat game so some simplification is required. It's like comparing Kill Teams to 40k Apocalypse. 

[Mendi Warrior]

This was published on FB Forge World's account: Space Wolves special rules. Enjoy!

[SkimaskMohawk]

39 minutes ago, Rik Lightstar said:

 

AT is a Skirmish Game in reality, it has lots of detail focus and resource management for each individual game piece. 

 

With a "standard" AT game being around 1750 points +/- 250 you're typically only looking at 3-8 Titans with maybe a smattering of Knights. Knight Households are a bit different, but not massively when you consider each Banner of Knights to be the equivalent of a Titan selection rather than viewing them as individuals. 

 

LI is a mass combat game so some simplification is required. It's like comparing Kill Teams to 40k Apocalypse. 

 

Up until they cash grabbed it in 8th, apocalypse had granular points too though, as does modern 30k right down to 2pt models. Like, both games are apparently meant to be played at 3000 points and can span from mass armour to mass infantry.

 

I find it weird to come from AT and 30k where there's tons of granularity on upgrades, and then look at the previewed and leaked stuff for LI to see a ton of options, and points that range from 10-150 in the marine list and hear that adding some amount of points for the options is...too clunky?

[Captain Idaho]

Perhaps it will be, but I think it's closer to this:

 

 

So I'm alright with it really.

[apologist]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

*snip*

I find it weird to come from AT and 30k where there's tons of granularity on upgrades, and then look at the previewed and leaked stuff for LI to see a ton of options, and points that range from 10-150 in the marine list and hear that adding some amount of points for the options is...too clunky?

Points systems have always proven a bone of contention in any GW game system.

 

The idea that things can be perfectly balanced down to single points is a siren call. In my experience, it’s not happened in forty years of GW games. 
 

At that point, GW either double down on revising and updating points values – an approach that causes another set of arguments – or settles for a slightly less granular system. Rather than rounding to single points, you get to the nearest five, or ten, or fifty – which ends up at the old Power Level system in 40k. At root it’s points, merely willing to be a little more loose in the pursuit of army building that’s overall smoother and faster.

 

 For what it’s worth, I think your idea of separating (say) the Kratos builds into ‘broadly anti-tank’ and ‘broadly anti-personnel’ is a sensible one – and it’s exactly how things worked in the more recent editions of Epic. The previews we’ve seen make me a little uneasy that the Grand Sweep of strategy is going to be sacrificed at the altar of making sure that the cupola boltgun on Tank 241 is accounted for.

 

I’d be much more reassured by simple points if we had fewer options. Even with those options, however, I’m still far more in favour of simplicity in points values, even at the expense of (in my opinion, impossible to attain) perfect balance; mainly because it avoids over-focussing on fussy minutiae.
 

Does a general need to know whether a particular tank has a particular load-out? Not, I’d argue, if it’s at the expense of distracting him or her from the broader capabilities of the formation and its place in the army as a whole.

Edited August 2, 2023 by apologist

[Urauloth]

Liking the weapon stats so far. The heavy bolters make me wonder if we'll see a stand of space marines armed with them at some point (wishful thinking, but it would be cool if we do ever get a different armour mark).
Also: I was wondering how they there going to make Dark Angels stand out from the other black Astartes of the era, and it looks like it's by going ham on the red markings, which is a good call. I see some red backpacks in there I think? That's neat, really distinguishes them without sacrificing their basic heraldry.

[sonsoftaurus]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Perhaps it will be, but I think it's closer to this:

 

 

So I'm alright with it really.

So…many…Rhinos! 
 

Ah yes the old epic rhino cavalry/missiles. Drop off infantry into position, go charging across the field to try to double/triple team something more important. 

[vadersson]

23 minutes ago, Urauloth said:

Liking the weapon stats so far. The heavy bolters make me wonder if we'll see a stand of space marines armed with them at some point (wishful thinking, but it would be cool if we do ever get a different armour mark).
Also: I was wondering how they there going to make Dark Angels stand out from the other black Astartes of the era, and it looks like it's by going ham on the red markings, which is a good call. I see some red backpacks in there I think? That's neat, really distinguishes them without sacrificing their basic heraldry.

My only concern is the weapon ranges seem short.  But we will see how it plays.

 

So the Dark Angels wore black and red in the HH period?  I did not know that.  I was wondering what a Blood Angels death company was doing in HH.  ;)

 

[Marshal Rohr]

If the recommended table size is 5x4 so the farthest anything ever needs to shoot is 77 inches corner to corner. 

[Black Cohort]

I find the terminator thing interesting, I guess this means we will have constant access to the starter box or an astartes infantry box shortly after release.