Legions Imperialis Legions Imperialis

[Bung]

9 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Two different customer groups. And I don’t think even GW have large hopes for ToW. 

Not here.

Same people are interested in both games as they play AT and Fantasy. But are unhappy with current rank and file systems and hope for an official Epic and Fantasy Game.

 

1 hour ago, Black Cohort said:

At times it feels like someone senior in GW didn't want LI to happen so is trying to kill it before it starts.

 

I still don't understand the logic of delaying the release by months, they would have had to store all the physical kits they presumably surged production on for release, plus lost all the hype and momentum they will building for a late summer release.  Now they are going to be fighting their own holiday sales.  They should have just pushed it out with digital rules and said "The binding on the books was physical books to follow before year end."  It would have saved their release schedule, saved all the warehousing costs and not messed up multiple release slots through the fall.

 

GW will never do free rules for a Game, especially for a SG that already has tons of alternative models.

[Mandragola]

I’m not going to speculate on the reasons for the delay, but what a mess this is!
 

I’m curious to see what happens when LI finally does get released, which has to be pretty soon. If the game is good then it might win people over despite all this chaos but it’ll never be possible to know what damage has been done. 
 

AT had a pretty terrible launch. The original grand master edition wasn’t a good starter at all, almost seeming deliberately designed to exclude due to its high price tag and with a contents that made for awful games (two warlords fire bellicosas till one overheats and explodes). But AT is a great game that has a really good few years before LI came along and GW, insanely, took all the models off shelves. And then LI didn’t come so you can’t buy AT models. 
 

Now we’re in this mad position where GW has killed off two games (AT and AI, though only AI on purpose) to release one, while doing everything possible to mess up that release. 
 

The choice of going with heresy also seems to make no sense at all. For AT you can go by the logic of making only a small number of models - actually the way the whole idea of the heresy civil war came about in the first place of course. But with LI they are kicking it off with two ranges, so that design saving doesn't apply. 
 

They even have AI planes for xenos races and I’m sure they’ve got CAD files for loads of them, but instead of using that as the basis for a range they’ve withdrawn the products from sale.

 

I'd prefer it if they’d released LI as proper epic, with marines against Nids to show some of the larger conflicts of Leviathan, or any of the other 40k conflicts. You’d have had two full ranges with genuinely different play styles and appearance, plus the opportunity to make eldar, orks, Votann, Admech and everyone else in future. Instead we have two ranges here that we couldn’t really use to represent 40K even if we wanted to, due to the decision to make them incompatible on purpose.

 

Edit: Toned this down a bit. I'm not a fan of SA but others are.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Mandragola

[Petitioner's City]

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

SA don’t even make sense as a large battlefield army. What do these elite guys in shiny metallic void armour for fighting inside spaceships think they are doing forming up in napoleonic-era ranks on the 30k battlefield? They aren’t actually the core “Imperial Army” of the 30k imperium, just a small elite segment of it. But FW doesn’t want us to just field Cadian armies in 30k because then they wouldn’t be able to put the sales figures in their row of some spreadsheet.

 

At least do some research before making up nonsense! This is the information from Conquest, ie from 2014!

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

Solar aux.pdf

 

They are a frontline army type, and SA-style regiments make up 25% of the Imperial Excertus. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Warmaster1988]

They should look more modern that the Guard in 40k and not like the wear 1920s diving Equipment.

 

 

[Petitioner's City]

40 minutes ago, Warmaster1988 said:

They should look more modern that the Guard in 40k and not like the wear 1920s diving Equipment.

 

 

 

See the thing is is that the heresy is "history" - and it's good that the designers give us designs and cues that set it in our sense of the past.

 

We see this use of historicisation in the recurrent use of historical 40k designs when the game launched in 2012, we see that in the art from Sabre's ccg which often used pieces of historical armour to show history-ness, we see that today in the historicising Prussian helms of the mark3 and the Romanised design of the original resin (and later plastic) infantry, we see it in the descriptions and designs intimated throughout the BL series too (ornate military dress, for example), and so on. There is so much to this, but I think Edgar's steampunk infantry were another element of this - something Vernian that immediately connotes our idea of the past (of the late 19th century, of Verne himself, of the history of science fiction and fantasy, and so on).

 

As a design continuum, things which tell us this historicity, this sense of things being in the past, are key for player and user experience - whether that's the past of Rogue Trader (in 2012 and in 2022), or the past of our actual world (throughout).

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not disregard the points raised just because of a technicality - the point being made was the focus on Solar Auxilia was raised as a deliberate mismatch to what is focused upon in 40K.

 

Personally I don't mind this, if the game Legions Imperialis is satisfactorily supported, advertised and promoted. After all, the game can be progressed naturally and build up a large customer base as normal.

 

However, the situation with the game is not well developed and actually harmful to its promotion and positive movement. How much we don't really know but anyone with knowledge of economics on a passing amount can tell that this game's momentum and player base has been harmed somewhat by the actions and inactions (or lack of communication) from the company and that hurts.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[sitnam]

5 hours ago, Bung said:

Not here.

Same people are interested in both games as they play AT and Fantasy. But are unhappy with current rank and file systems and hope for an official Epic and Fantasy Game.

 

 

GW will never do free rules for a Game, especially for a SG that already has tons of alternative models.

The rules for Warcry, including the compendium, were released free on the onset of 2nd edition.

[Petitioner's City]

But it wasn't a technicality Captain Idaho; Mandragola claimed the SA were unwanted, and with something approaching venom, which they have (thankfully) edited out. But their statement still discounts awareness of the heresy setting and history of its elements, and why actually for many it's super exciting to see the Solar Auxilia as a launch faction. 

 

Their statement gets back to the desire for a modern "Epic", rather than this game, which is different - it's not the Epic of the late 90s many players today remember, with all the species. This instead expresses the pride the specialist games studio has in its own particular area of the company's IP. 

 

But another thing is that it's clear a significant capital investment has occured to develop Legion Imperialis, and it's initial two full lines (missing mech, sisters, custodes, general excertus, militia, etc). But it makes clear the resources required - and a modern Epic might be too much to do right (with how many factions?).

[Bung]

6 minutes ago, sitnam said:

The rules for Warcry, including the compendium, were released free on the onset of 2nd edition.

 

Still i have never seen a game of Warcry being played after the initial test games when the game was released.

Some may like it but here it failed due to fixed Warbands and people going Back to Mordheim.

[sitnam]

5 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

Still i have never seen a game of Warcry being played after the initial test games when the game was released.

Some may like it but here it failed due to fixed Warbands and people going Back to Mordheim.

Okay?For me it's the only GW game I play, which is still besides the pont. The point was they do release free rules on occasion

 

Also fixed warbands are not a thing

Edited November 6, 2023 by sitnam

[Halandaar]

12 minutes ago, Bung said:

Still i have never seen a game of Warcry being played after the initial test games when the game was released.

Some may like it but here it failed due to fixed Warbands and people going Back to Mordheim.

 

The point being made is that the rules for the game are freely available, so there is precedent for it even if it's not something GW does very often.

 

And as @sitnam says, warbands aren't fixed. Sure the point cost of models in a warband box often conveniently add up to exactly the maximum you can take, but if you want more of something and less of something else you absolutely can, just like every other system. 

[Captain Idaho]

38 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

But it wasn't a technicality Captain Idaho; Mandragola claimed the SA were unwanted, and with something approaching venom, which they have (thankfully) edited out. But their statement still discounts awareness of the heresy setting and history of its elements, and why actually for many it's super exciting to see the Solar Auxilia as a launch faction. 

 

I don't want to talk for someone else but I think the majority of points raised are not contradicted or misrepresented by the Solar Auxilia situation. Their position is irrelevant to the purpose of the post.

 

Anyways, we're splitting hairs really. We can all definitely see that the game Legions Imperialis has been harmed by the lack of communication, excessive delays and token promotion. Looking at it in reverse, if the game was promoted and released with fully communicated company support, it would be a positive.

 

The question that's really in debate is whether it will have a detrimental effect long term or not.

 

Personally things can be turned around, I believe. But so far the game hasn't been released and it isn't being done as we speak. Hence my dread. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[phandaal]

45 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

Their statement gets back to the desire for a modern "Epic", rather than this game, which is different - it's not the Epic of the late 90s many players today remember, with all the species. This instead expresses the pride the specialist games studio has in its own particular area of the company's IP. 

 

Yeah, I think most of the people who were asking for Epic 40k to return were asking for Epic 40k and not Epic Horus Heresy.

 

The choice to make it Horus Heresy probably had less to do with an individual team's pride and more to do with the company not wanting to fully invest in making a comprehensive new range for all of the 40k factions.

[Redcomet]

5 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah, I think most of the people who were asking for Epic 40k to return were asking for Epic 40k and not Epic Horus Heresy.

 

The choice to make it Horus Heresy probably had less to do with an individual team's pride and more to do with the company not wanting to fully invest in making a comprehensive new range for all of the 40k factions.

This. The bean counters said no to more than 2 factions. The institutional fear of the system tanking like it did back in the day, still plays a big part.

[Captain Idaho]

In a perfect scenario I'd prefer an Epic that included 40K factions too. Common ruleset but themes in the Heresy, then a boxed set of Orks and Squats (Votann whatever) then Tyranids too.

 

Even extend it to boxed sets of Scouring. They can all play against each other but you can also go on the theme too with your purchases. Ideal.

 

So but that doesn't mean that preference takes away my view that Legions Imperialis has been mismanaged severely.

[Bung]

38 minutes ago, sitnam said:

Okay?For me it's the only GW game I play, which is still besides the pont. The point was they do release free rules on occasion

 

Also fixed warbands are not a thing

 

Fixed Warbands and Terrain were a thing when the game started with the first Edition and a reason noone bought into it.

I rather suspect giving out free rules and giving the Warbands AoS Rules was an attempt to gather some interest in the game and miniatures.

 

Or was there any other game that did sell where they gave out free rules?

 

40k got an Index so people dont loose interest until their Codex is released and the SM Codex is the best example as Sternguard for example didnt get a free rules Update.

 

So i doubt there will be free rules for a game GW hast released already and had parts Like the AT stuff that already sold really good.

 

[Mandragola]

10 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah, I think most of the people who were asking for Epic 40k to return were asking for Epic 40k and not Epic Horus Heresy.

 

The choice to make it Horus Heresy probably had less to do with an individual team's pride and more to do with the company not wanting to fully invest in making a comprehensive new range for all of the 40k factions.

The thing is, I don’t think they’d have had to create all the 40K factions. They could have just made one, showing a particular conflict (such as leviathan but really anything) and released others later. They could have released a few factions with smaller ranges for each one. Bear in mind that the single infantry sprue they’re doing for the two LI factions we’ve seen each contain multiple units. If you did the same for a lot of 40K ranges you really wouldn’t need that many sprues. And of course they already had planes for most xenos factions, which they’ve chucked. 

 

The thing that frustrates me, and I apologise for letting that frustration spill out too much, is the decision to separate the 30 and 40K ranges, almost totally. This goes way beyond LI but LI illustrates it. Hardly any of the new models could be used in 40K to represent “modern” marines or guard. So where AT could  have been expanded to include Xenos, LI seems to be deliberately fire-walled.

 

And yeah, I do struggle with the SA in particular. They break the suspension of disbelief for me. They use tactics that haven’t been viable in the real world for centuries. 
 

I can’t see how it makes sense for marketing the actual products. Very few people own SA armies in 30k - though that may change if a plastic range is released. Currently they’re a niche faction in a niche game. They only occasionally appear in the BL books and really don’t have a lot of background written even in the old black books. I feel like a box set of 40K marines vs any xenos or chaos faction in 40K would have sold better and allowed for more varied and interesting units. 
 

I’m certainly guilty of nostalgia for the old epic - but the old epic was great! Hopefully LI will be too. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

12 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah, I think most of the people who were asking for Epic 40k to return were asking for Epic 40k and not Epic Horus Heresy.

 

The choice to make it Horus Heresy probably had less to do with an individual team's pride and more to do with the company not wanting to fully invest in making a comprehensive new range for all of the 40k factions.

The other thing is they're the same team that handles 30k, so it's easy to coordinate with themselves, but it's probably a lot more difficult to coordinate the designs of the 40k models with the main 40k studio. Basically everything would involve going through another chain of approval than what they're doing, which isn't insignificant.

Edited November 6, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Marshal Rohr]

15 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

The thing is, I don’t think they’d have had to create all the 40K factions. They could have just made one, showing a particular conflict (such as leviathan but really anything) and released others later. They could have released a few factions with smaller ranges for each one. Bear in mind that the single infantry sprue they’re doing for the two LI factions we’ve seen each contain multiple units. If you did the same for a lot of 40K ranges you really wouldn’t need that many sprues. And of course they already had planes for most xenos factions, which they’ve chucked. 

 

The thing that frustrates me, and I apologise for letting that frustration spill out too much, is the decision to separate the 30 and 40K ranges, almost totally. This goes way beyond LI but LI illustrates it. Hardly any of the new models could be used in 40K to represent “modern” marines or guard. So where AT could  have been expanded to include Xenos, LI seems to be deliberately fire-walled.

 

And yeah, I do struggle with the SA in particular. They break the suspension of disbelief for me. They use tactics that haven’t been viable in the real world for centuries. 
 

I can’t see how it makes sense for marketing the actual products. Very few people own SA armies in 30k - though that may change if a plastic range is released. Currently they’re a niche faction in a niche game. They only occasionally appear in the BL books and really don’t have a lot of background written even in the old black books. I feel like a box set of 40K marines vs any xenos or chaos faction in 40K would have sold better and allowed for more varied and interesting units. 
 

I’m certainly guilty of nostalgia for the old epic - but the old epic was great! Hopefully LI will be too. 

Use those insider connections to determine if the Specialist Games Studio is even allowed to make product for the 40K or Age of Sigmar settings. The Heresy might frustrate you and people that want 40K in another scale, and if you leverage all that Goonhammer good will you might be able to determine if the theories and rumors SG is only allowed to work with the MESBG, Necromunda, HH, and BB IPs are true. It might make a lot of sense why Epic and BFG will be Heresy focused on release. You might be upset at some policy an MBA that doesn’t even play made. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Black Cohort]

7 hours ago, Bung said:

 

 

GW will never do free rules for a Game, especially for a SG that already has tons of alternative models.

 

I didn't say free rules, I said digital rules, you can still charge for pdfs/ebooks of rules, rpg companies do it all the time.

[Noserenda]

The Sg team would really benefit from working closer with the main gw teams rather than this petulant feeling rivalry they have going on.

 

I do think it's a great point that the SA range could have been any army, and it severely undermines that main justification for limiting the game.

 

To think that 30k draws on more historical influences than any other gw game is a fairly ridiculous point though, like, it fails at even the most basic examination :D

 

Warcry has never had fixed warbands, and aos rules came pretty early. It's the best skirmish system gw has made, on a single game basis it blows mordheim out of the water, it just lacks a decent campaign system or half the atmosphere of its uncle system. People should try it, the rules are free :P

 

And yeah. They didn't have to do a full free rules release for LI, they could knock up an overview of army construction, sell the full epub and get the rulebook out when they can alongside all the models. You could even put a voucher in the starter and sell that though I bet the logistics aren't as simple as I think on that :D

 

Oh, and whilst most of the market for OW already has armies, Im sure they want to sell... Something, they aren't a charity lol

 

 

 

 

 

[Pacific81]

18 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I do despair also. Whilst the hard core fans always exist, is there enough to maintain the game?

 

I worry it'll see a splash release and not have sufficient momentum or sales to keep going.

 

Fingers crossed eh. Something I'd like to be wrong about.

 

What were the words from the old Architect guy in the Matrix? "There are levels of existence we are prepared to accept" ?

 

Epic will continue with or without a strong Legions release and support. I'd be quite happy going back to playing NetEpic or Armageddon as I have done before. But, it would make me sad because it would be such a massive missed opportunity both for them and for hobbyists; I think it's the best scale for displaying Titans, companies of tanks on the battlefield and these incredible large conflicts we imagine - and because the game has been so successful before, as a central/main game for many years (and GW only drew back on it became for a while because they took the failure of one boxset release as a condemnation from the paying public on that scale, and then went through their weird introspective phase of only doing 2 games) really you would have to say, if it does fail, then it is a massive ball-drop on their part. A big open goal that just needs some rules that are middling and some nice miniatures that don't cost the earth. They've passed on the miniatures part of those three items at least, we will have to see if they pass on the other two.

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, Pacific81 said:

 

What were the words from the old Architect guy in the Matrix? "There are levels of existence we are prepared to accept" ?

 

Epic will continue with or without a strong Legions release and support. I'd be quite happy going back to playing NetEpic or Armageddon as I have done before. But, it would make me sad because it would be such a massive missed opportunity both for them and for hobbyists; I think it's the best scale for displaying Titans, companies of tanks on the battlefield and these incredible large conflicts we imagine - and because the game has been so successful before, as a central/main game for many years (and GW only drew back on it became for a while because they took the failure of one boxset release as a condemnation from the paying public on that scale, and then went through their weird introspective phase of only doing 2 games) really you would have to say, if it does fail, then it is a massive ball-drop on their part. A big open goal that just needs some rules that are middling and some nice miniatures that don't cost the earth. They've passed on the miniatures part of those three items at least, we will have to see if they pass on the other two.

Andy C in that recent interview said GW considered it a failure because it only made a million pounds a year with no support. Whatever metric they use to measure success is more confusing than a Chaos Ritual. 
 

 

Edit: as for Solar Auxilia’s popularity, it was never going to be popular at 300 bucks for one troops. You could make a Knights army for near the same cost. But if the mystery release actually is New Russes, Plastic Infantry, Plastic Support platforms, and on and on, it will sell for Heresy and 40K. That will spill over into Legiones Imperialis as people eventually wanna build armies representing their normal armies. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Warmaster1988]

I'm happy they do not bring Epic in the 40k Setting with Primaris ect. and all the other irritating Stuff. the brought since 2017..

[Captain Idaho]

@Pacific81 unfortunately the odds of my regular gaming group embracing and even participating in an unsupported and out of production game are fairly low. Probably zero.