warhammer 40k 10th edition Mainline Legends

[Magos Takatus]

Happy to see that the Aeldari Phoenix and even the Bonesinger have made it back from the dead. That was an obscure model. I might have to finally paint mine up. Also happy that the Deimos Predators are back and the Melta isn't just a 100% superior version of the plasma armed version. My decidedly weird, relic-heavy marine army approves.

 

I know this isn't perfect and there are still a few lazy substitutions but at least GW are correcting their course. It doesn't quite calm the gut feeling that the Adeptus Mechanicus Codex will be a complete trainwreck but it is a slight reassurance to me.

[Orange Knight]

I can see that some of this stuff will be very disappointing, but we are talking about a LOT of units, and ultimately it might be the right decision to start stepping back from them.

Maintaining rules indefinitely is going to be difficult. The 40k game is already far too complex - too many units and too many factions. We like it this way, but we also have to accept that some things will be forgotten or removed over time.

 

To me it was strange that they put the Horus Heresy units into legends as those are amazing plastic kits that could see even more success if they were integrated into the main range. Not all units, but a few of the Tanks and Dreads perhaps?

 

As for some of the characters losing rules (like the original Tigurius model) - that isn't ideal, but it is also redundant to maintain rules for a kit that has simply been updated and replaced. You're not going to see a set of rules for the old Sternguard kit now that a new one exists.

It's far more disappointing to see fantastic and unique models like Asterion Moloc be reduced to a generic Captain with power weapon, however 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Interrogator Stobz]

I agree that some things eventually go when they can be replaced or better updated to a new kit. I have zero issues with official Counts as/proxy rules where possible for things they don't make anymore. That's actually a fairly elegant solution to many of the Character minis (but only if there are weapon options etc. to do it).

Getting toys onto the table has got to be the Priority.

 

I have a huge issue with making Units unplayable in some formats (tournaments) when they have rules. It's exactly the same amount of work to make a Legend datasheet and give it points as an Index one. And they Never have to go into a Codex, App or anything other than digital pdf. As long as they're "official" like the Compendiums used to be.

 

I am also concerned about the optics of dropping units completely. It sends a message that nothing is safe, and for a hobby which for many people takes years to collect, build, paint then use that's a bad look.

They have proven that after listening to us they can do it in less than a Month, it's simply not that hard to maintain rules for everything in this digital world.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz
Sp. Etc.

[Orion]

Where. Are. Engineers. ?

Like I don't give if it's some janky Legends datasheet, just throw something out there.

There are freaking Mukaali, but no Engineers.

Edited July 22, 2023 by JayJapanB

[Orange Knight]

I honestly wouldn't want to be in GW's shoes when it comes to this. It's such a delicate balance, and there is no win win solution.

 

1: You can't keep every kit in production forever.

2: You can't write rules for units that are no longer in production indefinitely. 

3: If you attempt to maintain the rules for OOP units in a 100% playable way, you ultimately punish new players that don't have access to the kits

 

Endlessly bloating the range and rules hurts the game, and in turn hurts the hobbyist.

Dropping units and rules can hurt the hobbyist and in turn their enjoyment of the game.

[Orion]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I honestly wouldn't want to be in GW's shoes when it comes to this. It's such a delicate balance, and there is no win win solution.

 

1: You can't keep every kit in production forever.

2: You can't write rules for units that are no longer in production indefinitely. 

3: If you attempt to maintain the rules for OOP units in a 100% playable way, you ultimately punish new players that don't have access to the kits

 

Endlessly bloating the range and rules hurts the game, and in turn hurts the hobbyist.

Dropping units and rules can hurt the hobbyist and in turn their enjoyment of the game.

But heck, they even missed models that are in production. 

 

On a side note: It's a shame they removed the thudd gun QUADlauncher having 4 dice. It felt thematic.

Like maybe they could have done 4d3 and raised the points to nerf it but keep the 4 dice.

Also Gorgon only have 30 again feels wrong. Who even cares if it has a capacity of 50?

[Castellan Wulfrik]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I honestly wouldn't want to be in GW's shoes when it comes to this. It's such a delicate balance, and there is no win win solution.

 

1: You can't keep every kit in production forever.

2: You can't write rules for units that are no longer in production indefinitely. 

3: If you attempt to maintain the rules for OOP units in a 100% playable way, you ultimately punish new players that don't have access to the kits

 

Endlessly bloating the range and rules hurts the game, and in turn hurts the hobbyist.

Dropping units and rules can hurt the hobbyist and in turn their enjoyment of the game.

It's a big company with big profits, hire the staff you need to run the game. Besides bloating of the range is something they did of their own accord, it's a self-inflicted wound. Instead of updating existing model ranges they chose to introduce a million and one new units, mostly primaris. They do this because they believe, probably rightly, that new units are a safer bet for sales than updated kits that some people won't feel the need to buy; but what they fail to consider are the long term knock on affects. We're finally seeing they've recognised this mistake with sternguard and terminators just being updated kits for existing datasheets but it's years too late. They're in a permanent state of omnishambles because the leadership has for years not taken obvious steps, they've failed to show any semblance of foresight, planning and aren't even reactive. The customer base and product range expands. Do we expand our teams and production capacity to keep up with the demand? Nah, let's just open a warehouse and tinker with the logistics, that'll do it. Nottingham homies for lyfe brah. Wants to expand further into Asian markets, refuses to open production sites in Asia. Despite demand outstripping production in existing markets. They're an extremely conservative company that refuses to take any risks or try anything new, instead they turtle up in Nottingham and continue doing things the way they've been doing for ages whilst they pump out the dividends. It's easy to see why very few people have any sympathy for GW. 

[Kallas]

28 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Endlessly bloating the range and rules hurts the game

Spoiler

 

Mmmhmmmm 

[Interrogator Stobz]

48 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I honestly wouldn't want to be in GW's shoes when it comes to this. It's such a delicate balance, and there is no win win solution.

 

1: You can't keep every kit in production forever.

2: You can't write rules for units that are no longer in production indefinitely. 

3: If you attempt to maintain the rules for OOP units in a 100% playable way, you ultimately punish new players that don't have access to the kits

 

Endlessly bloating the range and rules hurts the game, and in turn hurts the hobbyist.

Dropping units and rules can hurt the hobbyist and in turn their enjoyment of the game.

Hey mate, I don't think any of us want to be in their shoes. But they actually can fix things if they stop repeating past mistakes. 

1. Absolutely correct. 

2. It's a digital age, they absolutely can. They just proved that in a month they can catch up many of their blunders. They 100% can.

3. Choosing to punish old customers is worse. We have more money. Also, have you seen the second hand market? Almost everything is available there. New players can pick things up. ++Loyalty is its own reward++

 

It is a conundrum, but not an unsolvable one, that is just being defeatist and not my style.

[Noserenda]

I think its the contemptuous lack of care that feels the worst? 

Honestly i think a version of Legends with full endorsement from GW, app data and goddamn PICTURES ON THE DATASLATES CMON GW can work, you just do what FW did for years and round up the points a little. Its much better than making the rules crap and willing players can pay a little premium to use their favourite toys. Itll drive off the tournament players (Except when you screw up, but you can fix that!) and not make them appealing to new players except on aesthetic grounds, which is fine (look at oldhammer :D ) and you can just largely ignore them for the edition outside of necessary fixes and a quick pass for a new codex. 

This feels like an answer everyone could get behind? 

I am low key kinda happy my corsairs are... so nearly playable, they still refuse to give them correct options because they clearly dont give a :cuss:.

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

It's a big company with big profits, hire the staff you need to run the game. Besides bloating of the range is something they did of their own accord, it's a self-inflicted wound. Instead of updating existing model ranges they chose to introduce a million and one new units, mostly primaris. They do this because they believe, probably rightly, that new units are a safer bet for sales than updated kits that some people won't feel the need to buy; but what they fail to consider are the long term knock on affects. We're finally seeing they've recognised this mistake with sternguard and terminators just being updated kits for existing datasheets but it's years too late. They're in a permanent state of omnishambles because the leadership has for years not taken obvious steps, they've failed to show any semblance of foresight, planning and aren't even reactive. The customer base and product range expands. Do we expand our teams and production capacity to keep up with the demand? Nah, let's just open a warehouse and tinker with the logistics, that'll do it. Nottingham homies for lyfe brah. Wants to expand further into Asian markets, refuses to open production sites in Asia. Despite demand outstripping production in existing markets. They're an extremely conservative company that refuses to take any risks or try anything new, instead they turtle up in Nottingham and continue doing things the way they've been doing for ages whilst they pump out the dividends. It's easy to see why very few people have any sympathy for GW. 

That’s because Games Workshop is a successful small company with big company profits and small company brain. They can’t meet demand, they can’t employ the right people to transform the company to a big one, and they can’t work with companies that provide enterprise services to help them do that. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Kallas]

13 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

That’s because Games Workshop is a successful small company with big company profits and small company brain

That depends on if you're referring to the design studio specifically or the wider umbrella of Games Workshop.

 

The design studio is small, yes. It definitely needs an injection of some of the profits to make it less overworked/understaffed.

 

Games Workshop as a whole is not a small company. They are a global company (yes, in a niche market) that has hundreds of stores directly tied to their main office, directly under their purview. They have hundreds of third party stores that sell their products across the world on top of their own stores. They are not a small business, though having the small business mindset is probably an apt description.

 

Hell, assuming all of their stores are 1-mam stores they'd have over 500 customer-facing employees globally, and realistically they have many more than this, along with (mostly) the in-house supply chain to support them all (GW does a lot of in-house logistics, which is usually a smart move).

 

They simply aren't small. Niche yes, small no.

 

As big as the biggest companies in the world? No. But they aren't a small business. Huge for the niche market they are in, probably medium in general business terms (they're dealing in multi-billion revenue (yes that's not profits) per year).

[Lexington]

31 minutes ago, Kallas said:

They simply aren't small. Niche yes, small no.

No, but I think the idea is that they act like a small company. Which, I think, has some basis.

 

The way I’d put it is that Games Workshop is a company that really only wants to produce miniatures and hobby accessories, and resents the fact that they have this legacy “gaming” business thrust upon them.

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

That depends on if you're referring to the design studio specifically or the wider umbrella of Games Workshop.

 

The design studio is small, yes. It definitely needs an injection of some of the profits to make it less overworked/understaffed.

 

Games Workshop as a whole is not a small company. They are a global company (yes, in a niche market) that has hundreds of stores directly tied to their main office, directly under their purview. They have hundreds of third party stores that sell their products across the world on top of their own stores. They are not a small business, though having the small business mindset is probably an apt description.

 

Hell, assuming all of their stores are 1-mam stores they'd have over 500 customer-facing employees globally, and realistically they have many more than this, along with (mostly) the in-house supply chain to support them all (GW does a lot of in-house logistics, which is usually a smart move).

 

They simply aren't small. Niche yes, small no.

 

As big as the biggest companies in the world? No. But they aren't a small business. Huge for the niche market they are in, probably medium in general business terms (they're dealing in multi-billion revenue (yes that's not profits) per year).

 

They are a small business. They have around 400/400 stores and less than 3,000 employees. The have the same market cap as like Dillards and Columbia sportswear. Dillards has 40,000 employees and Columbia has 10,000. Games Workshop is staffed like a tech company. Qualys (a Cyber Tools Company) has a similar market cap to GW and has 2,000ish employees. It’s an objectively small company. 

[ThePenitentOne]

Cool.

 

Lone Operative for Rauss and Reine, Locarno leading Voidsmen, and the return of Inquisitors in Terminator Armour. And of course the Repressor- I want it as much for Arbites as Sisters. My Zoat, and rules for the Ambull, which I hope to be able to get from Barnes and Noble online.

[SgtSharp]

3 hours ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

 The customer base and product range expands. Do we expand our teams and production capacity to keep up with the demand? Nah, let's just open a warehouse and tinker with the logistics, that'll do it.

you know what annoys me? people focusing on a single tree, complaining there isn't a forest, without looking around to see it.

 

for, what 30 years, with the exception of terrain all GW models have been made in a single building, Warhammer world, it is their office, their factory, their warehouse, their museum and their main events hall, they can't expand production without loosing something else, so they bought the building next door and convert it into a warehouse, with all the efficient systems that have been invented and refined over the last 30 years, so now they can move the warehouse out of the main building and fill that space with more injection moulders.

 

As for not opening overseas production, its a simple calculation of, is the savings in logistics and wages from opening an overseas production facility worth the cost of cutting every die again? the answer to that is, most certainly not, dies are really expensive.

 

 

anyway back on topic, the  guard datasheets, still no engineers, the centaur, the vehicle with a possition to mount heavy weapons to fire it properly, has no firepoints instead, it has a heavy stubber, which is bipod mounted becfause its part of the passangers equipment not the vehicles, the command salamander has no ability to issue tank orders, which is weird because its the command tank for armoured forces. Elysuan snipers are looking good, maybe not an auto take, but still strong. Grenadiers are, weird, and i'm not sure i like them, and they carry on with the thing where they have a wargear ability, without being able to take the wargear item in question. unfortunately unlike the regular DKOK squad, this one isn't getting fixed, ever.

[jimbo1701]

17 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Company veterans on bikes have just two wounds. That must be a mistake.

One that has been propagated for several editions now. Grr. 

[Redcomet]

5 hours ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

It's a big company with big profits, hire the staff you need to run the game. Besides bloating of the range is something they did of their own accord, it's a self-inflicted wound. Instead of updating existing model ranges they chose to introduce a million and one new units, mostly primaris. They do this because they believe, probably rightly, that new units are a safer bet for sales than updated kits that some people won't feel the need to buy; but what they fail to consider are the long term knock on affects. We're finally seeing they've recognised this mistake with sternguard and terminators just being updated kits for existing datasheets but it's years too late. They're in a permanent state of omnishambles because the leadership has for years not taken obvious steps, they've failed to show any semblance of foresight, planning and aren't even reactive. The customer base and product range expands. Do we expand our teams and production capacity to keep up with the demand? Nah, let's just open a warehouse and tinker with the logistics, that'll do it. Nottingham homies for lyfe brah. Wants to expand further into Asian markets, refuses to open production sites in Asia. Despite demand outstripping production in existing markets. They're an extremely conservative company that refuses to take any risks or try anything new, instead they turtle up in Nottingham and continue doing things the way they've been doing for ages whilst they pump out the dividends. It's easy to see why very few people have any sympathy for GW. 

Much rage. And many false claims.

GW have been reinvesting in their company for decades. A lot of money has been spent on controlling as much of their pipeline as possible. 
 

It is a relatively small company and injection machines, production facilities and warehouse space are all expensive investments. 
 

And you just don’t set up manufacturing on a different continent, especially Asia. That would require a permanent staff presence and big quality control to ensure stuff actually gets made well.

 

 

[MARK0SIAN]

9 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Lolz, I just checked, and a month into this simplified Edition I need to play:

 

Core rulebook.

Core Rules Commentary.

Index Dark Angels.

Index Space Marines.

Munitorium Field Manual pdf.

Forge World Datasheets pdf.

Legends of 40k Datasheets pdf.

Legends of the HH Datasheets pdf.

Legends Field Manual pdf.

Legendary Units pdf.

Lolz, and Unaligned Units pdf.

 

Just imagine if there was a way to collate all the non-index units into one place.

Now Imagine what it could be called, maybe a Compendium?

Imagine if something like that had been done properly at the beginning of this Edition....

 

 

 

Now imagine it being kept digital so detail errors could easily be fixed....

Wow, the potential for that kind of simplified delivery is fantastic. 

Surely you speak of sorcery to achieve such a wild and outlandish proposal!

 

Seriously though, it’s long past time they went fully digital for their rules if they are going to try and actively balance them.

Edited July 22, 2023 by MARK0SIAN

[spessmarine]

Why is the Deimos Predator here instead of the HH stuff

[Dark Legionnare]

25 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

Why is the Deimos Predator here instead of the HH stuff

GW: "Shhh, shhh. You saw no inconsistencies here. We never do that, don't point that out.

 

Oh, and before I forget, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?"

 

But in all seriousness: "Because they're nothing if not consistently inconsistent?" as I coined them when going through the 9th ed Imperial Armors

 

The low-ish variable quality/quality-control intrinsically implies a lot of these (indexes, legends, hh legends, etc...) were pretty low-effort rush jobs without much cross-checking, oversight, or even proofreading. I don't think that's in contention anywhere, and is basically the root answer to it all.

[Sky Potato]

11 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

As for some of the characters losing rules (like the original Tigurius model) - that isn't ideal, but it is also redundant to maintain rules for a kit that has simply been updated and replaced. You're not going to see a set of rules for the old Sternguard kit now that a new one exists.

It's far more disappointing to see fantastic and unique models like Asterion Moloc be reduced to a generic Captain with power weapon, however 

They’ve not even done particularly well with the “counts as” list.

 

Asterion Moloc should be represented by a Captain in Terminator Armour, not a Captain, given that his model is wearing Tartaros.

 

Not adding Legends to the app is absolute bull and definitely runs counter to the claims that Legends can be used everywhere except tournaments. 

[Kastor Krieg]

23 minutes ago, Sky Potato said:

Not adding Legends to the app is absolute bull and definitely runs counter to the claims that Legends can be used everywhere except tournaments. 

Yup, pretty much solidifies the division. "You can't even take them in their own app!" will be the new cry of the usual Legends gatekeepers across the community.

[Urauloth]

Quite like the Chaos content tbh. The volt cultists in units of 4 is... weird, though.

[Marshal Rohr]

You can’t take legends in the app because the app is poorly engineered, not because legends are bad. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Marshal Rohr