GW eliminating certan First Born Units - Ravenwing in trouble

[moi_a_mania]

I just read an article that certain first born units will be retired. 

 

Having Attack Bikes, Bike Squadrons, and Landspeeders as the main portion of our Ravenwing and GW moving to retire them is going to hurt.

 

Other units include Assault Troops, Scouts, Thunderfire Cannons, etc.

 

I know Primaris is the future, but it sucks to put so much effort, money, and time into this hobby only to have it stripped away.

 

Sorry for my rant.

[Helias_Tancred]

Theres a flip side to that coin, I bought my Ravenwing bikes (2 three-man squads) and Attack bikes (2) years ago, and the models were already pretty old. We already have replacements for the land speeder and the bike squad (Outriders), but I'm curious if they will be releasing a primaris-styled Attack Bike replacement unit? Or if that is the ATV?

 

I do think when we get our line refresh we will get replacement sprues/or new model kits for Ravenwing knights, basically outriders with plasma talons, etc. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Eilio Tiberius

[Tacitus]

I'm not really opposed to the change as much as the timing.  Doing it right after PDF datasheets instead of the beginning of the edition... 

12 minutes ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

Theres a slip side to that coin, I bought my Ravenwing bikes (2 three-man squads) and Attack bikes (2) years ago, and the models were already pretty old. We already have replacements for the land speeder and the bike squad (Outriders), but I'm curious if they will be releasing a primaris-styled Attack Bike replacement unit? Or if that is the ATV?

 

I do think when we get our line refresh we will get replacement sprues/or new model kits for Ravenwing knights, basically outriders with plasma talons, etc. 

That is the ATV - the Outrider squadron has already been written with the ATV/AB parallel. 

[Helias_Tancred]

I just was reading up on that. I also realized I need to buy one of those so I can make the squad. Is it a no brainer for either one ATV gun option or the other? Or just situational?

 

Thanks Tacitus. 

[Tacitus]

31 minutes ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

I just was reading up on that. I also realized I need to buy one of those so I can make the squad. Is it a no brainer for either one ATV gun option or the other? Or just situational?

 

Thanks Tacitus. 

I'm kinda thinking situational - pick the target profile you need the most help with compared to the rest of your army or play for the unit etc. 

[moi_a_mania]

I'm in agreement Tacticus.  Why release the 10th edition with all of these units only to send them into legends.

 

I don't play in tournaments and just play with my son, nephews and friends.  I'm going to still use my models in that fashion.

[Gamiel]

2 hours ago, moi_a_mania said:

Why release the 10th edition with all of these units only to send them into legends.

Likely because they don't really sell, but they want to give the people that have them rules so they can use them if they want to.

 

To my understanding do GW retire stuff that doesn't sell well, things that sell are kept around.

[Tacitus]

31 minutes ago, Gamiel said:

Likely because they don't really sell, but they want to give the people that have them rules so they can use them if they want to.

 

To my understanding do GW retire stuff that doesn't sell well, things that sell are kept around.

The point isn't that they're being sent to legends, the point is that they're being sent to legends at the beginning/middle of an edition, instead of at the end/very beginning of one.  If they were going to be junked, they should have been run to legends at the same time everything else was - when the PDF's came out.

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

And what does the timing change, exactly?

There's no codex out, yet, and there's plenty of time to still get them if you really want. 

 

Also: Legends is not junked, unless you plan to play the 9th edition cookie cutter RW list in 10th tournaments. If you have them, you can play them, and if somebody complains about that you know who not to play. As for the feasibility of said list, we'll see how well that would work in about 6 months or so. Personally, I doubt that these units will even be included in either the SM or the DA codex.

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, moi_a_mania said:

I know Primaris is the future, but it sucks to put so much effort, money, and time into this hobby only to have it stripped away.

 

The bikes at least should be OK to simply run as Outriders and the Attack Bikes as ATVs. I don't see the the Command Squads and Black Knights going away just yet as they are newer and and integral part of the Ravenwing.

 

Land Speeders are less helpful in that there isn't an obvious way to proxy these as Primaris units.

[jaxom]

26 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Land Speeders are less helpful in that there isn't an obvious way to proxy these as Primaris units.

The Storm is kind of like an Impulsor. For the others, perhaps counts-as ATVs?

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Cpt. Bannockburn said:

And what does the timing change, exactly?

There's no codex out, yet, and there's plenty of time to still get them if you really want. 

 

Also: Legends is not junked, unless you plan to play the 9th edition cookie cutter RW list in 10th tournaments. If you have them, you can play them, and if somebody complains about that you know who not to play. As for the feasibility of said list, we'll see how well that would work in about 6 months or so. Personally, I doubt that these units will even be included in either the SM or the DA codex.

The timing probably changes what people would have bought after the PDF's released and told us which units were going to be able to do what - The people who bought scout bikes, sniper scouts, Assault Marines, and such are probably fairly unhappy right now.  Its got a definite bait and switch feel to it. 

 

Legends isn't junked but its also not going to be the norm for a lot of people.  People play "tournament rules" in pickup games and so on.  Everybody doubts they'll be in the SM or DA Codex.  Legends means they're pretty much gone from normal play.  Now most of us probably suspect/expect a Primaris replacement for these units - Outriders are already a thing, and chances are there's a DA Upgrade kit coming for them to turn into Black Knights and Command Squads.   There's probably a kit coming for Talonmasters in the new Storm Speeders.  That lead time could be problematic depending on how long it takes.  And this doesn't just affect DA.  RG Assault Marines, BT Neophytes, BA Assault Marines, Jump Death Company, potentially Sanguinary Guard... Flavor units could be falling like flies. 

[Berzul]

The replacement of Firstborn with Primaris has been evident since day one, for most of us. It simply has not been an immediate change, but rather, a prolonged one. 

 

My gaming group would always mock me for saying that this was happening. Ever since the release of the first Primaris Intercessors, back in 8th Edition. They would claim that I was just a grumpy loon yelling at clouds, and that Firstborn would always be there and be playable.

 

And yet, slowly but surely, over time, every unit in the codex has gotten a Primaris equivalent that has better strength, toughness, wounds, attacks, armor penetration, damage, rules, and stratagem support, that its Firstborn counterpart. For almost the same cost.

 

What we had not yet seen was this. The actual phasing out of units, by throwing them into Legends, in this manner. 

 

Now, one is no longer some butthurt conspiracy theorist spinning grand tales about the doom of the army. Now, everyone agrees that this stuff had been going on for a while. Every decision by GW is recontextualized by the Ravenwing getting retired like this.

 

Now the units are gone. 

 

Sure, you can play with friends using your old models as proxy units for the new stuff, but that won't fly in tournaments and events. And, over time, the disparity of models will gnaw at the mind to the point that one will be made to switch to the other models anyway. Those of us that haven't already, I mean.

 

I gotta say... It's almost liberating, for the units to go away, at last. As if one's collection has been slowly dying out, but never dying. Becoming worse and worse with every new release of Primaris equivalents, and turning into old, redundant, less efficient, and overall weaker versions of something new. Now it is actually being put to rest.

 

I, for one, am glad that GW finally had the decency to do this, already. To get it done, make it clear, and move on.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Berzul

[jaxom]

The Lion is out now, but there’s still the 10th Ed codex. If it were me, I’d coincide it with the launch of multipart Terminators and Outriders, and new Deathwing and Ravenwing upgrades. That’s the big question for me, will the DA unique units get boxes separately or just be upgrade sprues?

[Berzul]

1 minute ago, jaxom said:

The Lion is out now, but there’s still the 10th Ed codex. If it were me, I’d coincide it with the launch of multipart Terminators and Outriders, and new Deathwing and Ravenwing upgrades. That’s the big question for me, will the DA unique units get boxes separately or just be upgrade sprues?

 

I really hope we do get new unique units. Outrider Black Knights, Outrider Command Squads, Storm Speeder Darkshrouds and Storm Speeder Vengeance, etc.

[Helias_Tancred]

5 hours ago, Tacitus said:

The timing probably changes what people would have bought after the PDF's released and told us which units were going to be able to do what - The people who bought scout bikes, sniper scouts, Assault Marines, and such are probably fairly unhappy right now.  Its got a definite bait and switch feel to it. 

 

Legends isn't junked but its also not going to be the norm for a lot of people.  People play "tournament rules" in pickup games and so on.  Everybody doubts they'll be in the SM or DA Codex.  Legends means they're pretty much gone from normal play.  Now most of us probably suspect/expect a Primaris replacement for these units - Outriders are already a thing, and chances are there's a DA Upgrade kit coming for them to turn into Black Knights and Command Squads.   There's probably a kit coming for Talonmasters in the new Storm Speeders.  That lead time could be problematic depending on how long it takes.  And this doesn't just affect DA.  RG Assault Marines, BT Neophytes, BA Assault Marines, Jump Death Company, potentially Sanguinary Guard... Flavor units could be falling like flies. 

 

I disagree, because ....

 

I think they're coming out with a new primaris assault squad kit, with jump packs. I'm willing to bet there are "veteran" bits on the sprue in order to turn it into vanguard veterans too? I bet either it can be used for primaris Death Company, in order to give them jump packs too?

 

For DA  I'd love to know whether it will be a big all encompassing DA upgrade kit, or specific ones for battle companies (robes, etc), Deathwing, and Ravenwing? We saw what they did for Black Templars, which was already built on a previous pattern for them, but we are a different beast in terms of our product line versus theirs.

 

I strongly believe there will be a Blood Angels primaris Sanguinary Guard kit released too. I hope Corbulo and Astorath get primaris miniatures too! Then I hope the SG points go down too lmao. 

 

I may come to regret saying this, lol, but all in all I feel fine with what is happening, and I'm optimistic about what is to come (to replace the retired stuff). 

 

 

 

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm more fine than I thought I'd be.

Must be numb lolz.

 

At least we have some official Counts As guidance for our old toys.

Shame Outriders are bland compared with Bikers, but I can remove my special and combi weapons fairly easily.

It will mean they are rubbish at AT duty now, but Guilliman declared we have to fight like Eldar so fight like Eldar it is.

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Counts as is perfectly fine for me, Outriders and Bike Squads aren't meaningfully different, same with ATV/Attack Bike. In those cases, an easy successor to the kit makes it trivial to keep using the collection.

 

The complication is with land speeders, which will probably have to be legends, if there's not a more direct equivalent like the other two.

 

All in all, like with most things, there's not much difference from the Outrider on its bigger base replacing the bike squads, as to the newer Eldar Guardians replacing the old ones for instance.

[FarFromSam]

Just going to be a whole lot of counts as.  Pair of attack bikes should fill up the atv base.  Or maybe the speeder for the atv?  

 

There's a lot of room for cool sculpts on outriders upsize though. 

[crimsondave]

I have a hard time believing the land speeder didn’t sell well.  They had been out of forever.  They were selling on eBay for above retail.  They recently came back in and immediately sold out again.  I bought 2 of the things a week ago.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yeah, a bunch of dudes on FB were defenders of GeeDub by saying no-one buys those units. They're wrong.

 

I personally buy from a wishlist to keep on track, and just bought 3 Sicarans and a Falchion, next were 3 Hunters. 

Now they get a nope.

I was also planning a plain Landspeeder to make into a TalonMaster, again now nope.

 

I have deleted 90% of my wishlist, the only things left are a DA Dex next year and a Javelin Speeder to convert to a LSV.

I can't see myself adding to it anytime soon, goodwill is a real thing for me.

 

Luckily I have a couple of years of painting to do, so hobby wise life is fine. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz
Sp.

[Orion]

I find its almost like a game to work out which models you should buy before it disappears. Balancing that along with which models you want now.

And not letting the pile get too big.

 

Glad I fomo-bought the Trojan support vehicle when I did. My OOP sense must have been tingling.

[Helias_Tancred]

The more I think about this, unless you're buying specific primaris units, right now IS NOT a good time to be buying any firstborn marine units, also hold off on Dark Angel purchases of existing kits until it gets closer to codex release early next year and we start seeing what units will be getting new primaris upgrades?

 

It sucks, but one could be wasting their hobby money atm?

 

Edit: I think those that rushed out and bought Assault Marine kits based on their good rules in the index got hosed. Not their fault. But learn from that mistake. Same thing with those talking about decent the firstborn Command Squad could be. Now both are being sent to legends. 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Eilio Tiberius

[unrealchamp88]

I think the main issue with the retiring of models to eventually be replaced, is the lack of transparency from GW. If we knew when a kit would go to legends and be replaced with either a direct upgrade (Sterguard, Terminators etc.) or something analogous to (Outriders), then we could buy those kits and build them with the replacements in mind, knowing what wargear they'd eventually need or even building them so the kit can be easily edited once the replacement arrives.

 

I built myself some company veterans and armed them with the wide panoply of wargear they had access to (used some fancy Stormcast torsos with robes etc.), but now i'm not sure what i'd proxy them as. That being said, using Legends rule for the Command Squad might do, but I have 15 minis (got carried away with the kit-bashes!) so more than enough, the rest will just be superfluous...anyway, my point is, clarity would be a great benefit for the company/customer relationship.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The command squad is one that is rumored to be redone.

 

But yes, clarity would help. It would concern folks a lot less if they had already announced that the command squad, scouts, jump pack Primaris (assault squads?), etc. were coming out.

Edited July 26, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion
Grammar