DW Command Squad v/s Bladeguard Veterans, in 10th

[Berzul]

Hey guys.

 

So, as the topic suggests, I want to discuss the comparison between the Deathwing Command Squad and the Bladeguard Veterans. As a small unit of tough, tank-y infantry models, that can move up the board towards a center field objective or another priority target, and lock it down with their resilience. Which one does it better, or what virtues and flaws are there in between them, when placed one against the other?

 

First things first: I am making this comparison for incursion size games, and assuming that we are talking about a 5-man squad of Deathwing Terminators, against a 6-man squad of Bladeguard Veterans. This, out of a balance in points. I understand that, in a strikeforce game, and when you consider both units at their strongest, the comparison kinda goes out of the window, because the Deathwing Command Squad can go up to 10 models with over twice the cost of what the 6 Bladeguard Veterans are. A cost which is kinda prohibitive in an incursion size game, but very much affordable in a strikeforce size game. I would consider the Deathwing Command Squad superior in its full, 10-man form, and in 2k point games, over the Bladeguard, without much point to the comparison. Simply by virtue of their advantages in size, woulds, weaponry, and abilities, when scaled to that size.

 

That having been said, then:

 

Six Bladeguard Veterans go for 200 points.

Their stats are M6", T4, Sv3+/4++, W3, Ld6+, OC1

At range you get 5 pistol shots, which are 18" in range, BS3+, S4, AP-1, D1, and one who is 12", S5, AP0, D2, with Devasting Wounds.

In melee you get 24 attacks, which are WS3+, S5, AP-2, D2

The unit can improve their melee to 2+, or rerroll saves of 1, and in melee they have their 5/1 pistol shots in conjunction with their swords.

 

The Deathwing Command Squad goes for 215 points. 

Their stats are M5", T5, Sv2+/4++, W3, Ld6+, OC1

I am asuming as an optimal loadout of the squad, given its 5-man size, and the only 2 models that you can actually change the weaponry to, a match up of one Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield to add a damage sponge to the unit, and a Storm Bolter and Cyclone Missile Launcher to add the best and/or most versatile firepower possible to the squad.

So, at range, you get

6 storm bolter shots at 24" (12 at 12"), which are BS3+, S4, AP0, D1

2 krak shots at 36", which are BS3+, S9, AP-2, Dd6

or

2D6 (7 on average) frag shots at 36", which are BS3+, S4, AP0, D1 (same as a storm bolter in damage output, shot per shot)

In melee, you get

5 attacks at WS3+, S6, AP-2, D2, with Precision

3 attacks at WS4+, S8, AP-2, D2, Anti Vehicle 3+

6 attacks at WS3+, S8, AP-2, D2

3 attacks at WS4+, S8, AP-2, D2, with Devastating Wounds

The unit has one model with W4, has +1 to advance and charge rolls, can perform heroic interventions for free, has +1 OC, and can revive one model per command phase at full wounds  

 

Basic comparison of their core stats gives you that:

The DWCS is a only 5 models, is bit more expensive in points, moves an inch less, but has a higher toughness a better armor save.

The Bladeguard have one more model, is 15 points cheaper, moves an inch more, but has a worse toughness and a worse armor save.

 

At range, the Command Squad has better range and far better damage output, but the Bladeguard has better AP and can use their weapons in range and in melee.

In melee, the Command Squad has fewer hits (17 in total), but a consistently higher Strength, and a more varied array of abilities for different targets. The Bladeguard has a lower Strength overall, for the same AP and damage, but has more hits (24 in total) and can improve its weapon skill to 2+, versus the 3+/4+ of the command squad, which means that they should be landing a few more hits per fight phase.

 

In terms of abilities:

The Bladeguard can improve their weapon skill or rerroll 1s in saving throws. Both are amazing abilities. However, there is no way to pair a Narthecium to the squad, and their OC is stuck at 1.

Without leaders in the squad, the Command Squad is stuck at hitting on 3s and 4s, and saving as-is. But, they get a model back per phase, which is huge, and can hold an objective better with their OC2.

 

Leadership:

If you wanted to level the playing field a bit, you could bring a Bladeguard Ancient to the squad, with a Pennant of Remembrance, for the 6+ FnP. But, while that improves their OC and makes them even MORE survivable, it puts the squad at 260 points (26% of a 1k list). The Command Squad has an ancient in it, but you cannot give it the Pennant of Remembrance, and if you brought in ANY leaders to the squad, you'd be pushed above the points limit for deepstriking the squad. Which makes you miss on a very useful ability of the Deathwing.

 

Given all this, what do you guys think?

 

What is the best squad to act as a vanguard, front-line squad, to lock down a key objective, between the two, on incursion size games?

 

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

I come down in favour of the Deathwinf Command squad. You mention that your mission for these guys is to lock down a midfield Objective and to my mind, the Terminators just do that better thanks to their greater toughness and improved OC. They can also contribute more to the battle once they are there thanks to their better firepower. BGVs work better in a more mobile setting where they set to engage targets.

 

I also rate the ability to get back a dead Terminator every turn as very strong. To maximise this ability, it might be worth taking one Terminator with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for the 4 Wounds. The Storm shield guys then acts as a bullet catcher for the squad as it increases the value of the Apothecary's Narthecium ability by 25%. It is also very handy for tanking 3D hits.

 

Lastly, I don't think adding a cheap Leader is a problem. The 25% restriction only applies to units placed in Tactical Reserve. Units which have their own ability to enter the battlefield via Deep Strike do not count towards the 25% limit (please check that as I am not 100% certain).

[Berzul]

Wait, what? I've been playing it with the 25% limit for my Terminators all this time! Someone please check this and confirm it! 

[FarFromSam]

Your write up hits the nail on the head.  For me, it comes down to what you are trying to do with the unit.  

 

I've used a 5 man command squad, with Belial, In a Land Raider Redeemer (<- That thing is the MVP of SM armies)  and learned the following:

 

-T5 vs T4 is not nearly as important as 2+ vs 3+.       

                  Weapons that are Str 5 all seem to have a similar stat line of ap1,  stronger weapons ie. Long range Str 10+ can be hidden from by LOS blocking terrain.

 

-Apothecary and Ancient rarely come into play.  

                   When a good player targets the unit, they only do so when they have the resources to completely wipe them, and that includes Belial's extra wounds.

 

-People are still scared of the threat of assault and have yet to realize Termies (while still being a great CC unit) are not the danger they used to be.  

                    Players are putting termies too high on their priority list.  Using more than a third of their army to kill a unit that can be stopped by sending a Rhino into CC with it.

 

My use of them has turned from my lynchpin monsters to some kind of a hybrid midfield threat/ deepstrike mind game.  5 man is underwhelming for the points, and I'm worried that when at ten they'll be able to make use of the Apothecary/Ancient, but at nearly a quarter of your points will still be underwhelming.  

 

Caveat to the above is that I used the unit aggressively.  Turn one advancing inside of the LR Redeemer as far forward across the field as possible placing them in front of an army's worth of return fire once the LR cracked.   Also, the DW Champ with the WS3 Halberd is a bad joke.  And Belial's precision hasn't come into play yet either.

 

Wounding most vehicles on a 5+ is a pretty big ask for both units.  I would be interested to see how BGV would do split into two units of three hiding behind LoS terrain and being a midfield counter.  

[Karhedron]

45 minutes ago, Berzul said:

Wait, what? I've been playing it with the 25% limit for my Terminators all this time! Someone please check this and confirm it! 

 

Here you go. Reserves granted by having the Deep Strike rule are separate to Strategic reserves and don't count towards the 25% limit.

 

 

[Berzul]

Since I play mostly incursion size games, when I've used the squad, I've usually done so by deploying it either on foot, or through deepstrike. When I go via deepstrike, I do it in the classic way in which you might play a Deathwing Squad. So, there is not much difference with a regular 4 Storm Bolters and an Assault Cannon team of 5 in the backline of the enemy. When I put them on the field at the start, what I will usually do is deploy them front and center, and rush the middle to try and hold it for as long as I can.

 

In the latter role, I have found that the Apothecary and the Ancient does play in. A squad of 5 Deathwing Terminators, in cover, takes a good size of the opponent's army to shift, when at the Incursion level. Between the 4 wounds on the Storm Shield Terminator and the Apothecary, you can remain at the center for a good while, often times. And the Cyclone Missile Launcher gives good fire support at a game size in which high strength of fire is harder to come by. 

 

Still, for this role, the Bladeguard are cheaper, more numerous, and have some shooting. Plus, in melee, their save rerrolls I figure must be very powerful.

[FarFromSam]

That sounds promising.   Incursion is 1000 points?   So close to a quarter of your points.   With player placed terrain, i wonder if it can work scaled up to a ten man unit. Inspiring.   

 

Here's a wrench.  What about the ironclad dread as midfield CC unit 2 HK missiles. Terrifying cc foe all units,  and a strat that almost promises 6MW on the charge

[Berzul]

I don't own an Ironclad Dread, sadly. Considering how things with ol' Marines are going, I don't think I'll ever get one. But, I get the idea.

 

As for the games I've played the Terminators:

 

Yeah, its 215 out of 1000 points. Then again, a Tactical Squad is 175, a Dreadnought is 160, and a Landraider is about 250. Many units in the codex are on the 200~ ish point range, so, the cost of the Terminators does not hurt me as much, list-building-wise.

 

I would not take a 10-man on an Incursion sized game, though. 430 points out of 1000 is just way too much. If you make it out of 2000, that's a different story.

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

Regarding how Deep Strike works: have you considered attaching a Chaplain in Terminator Armour for that tasty 4+ FNP against mortals?

[Berzul]

6 hours ago, Cpt. Bannockburn said:

Regarding how Deep Strike works: have you considered attaching a Chaplain in Terminator Armour for that tasty 4+ FNP against mortals?

 

It's hard to fit that in points at the Incursion level. 

 

From the matches I've had so far in the edition, I've tailored the following list, which is my current hobby project to start the edition properly:

 

Lazarus (through a Proxy model, because Lazarus is out of stock, and has been, for a while)

Primaris Techmarine

5-man Intercessor Squad

5-man Intercessor Squad

6 Bladeguard Veterans (with Lazarus leading them)

5-man Deathwing Command Squad (one Cyclone Missile Launcher, one Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield)

3 Erradicators with Melta Rifles (no Multi Meltas)

Whirlwind

 

The Bladeguard, in fact, have someone who can give them a FnP against Mortal Wounds (and its a 3+, which is amazing; specially against Tyranids, who are my main opponents from even before the edition began), but the Command Squad goes on its own. The idea being that the Bladeguard rush the enemy, going straight for the psykers and their retinue of "big bugs". Which should keep the enemy focused on them, while the Command Squad takes either the center objective or a side objective in No Man's Land, and picks at the larger bugs with Krak Missiles. Generating threat so as to take shots away from the Erradicators, who are the true damage dealers against the bigger bugs. This, while the Intercessors guard the home objective and/or move up to the remaining objectives. And the Primaris Techmarine keeps the Whirlwind firing at its 3+ skill, as it takes out infantry from objectives, in a support-fire position for the Intercessors.

 

While giving a leader for the FNP to the Deathwing sounds great, I am not sure where I could shave off the points.

 

What I have thought is downgrading the Deathwing Command Squad to a regular Deathwing Squad (saves 10 points) and taking out the Primaris Techmarine (saves 65 points). That added to the already 5 points that are free on the list, gives me 80. But that is still 10 points shy from the Terminator Chaplain.

[FarFromSam]

I have found that a single unit of intercessors works for me,  have ya looked at dropping one of them and adding a dev squad, or better yet a pred?

[Karhedron]

21 minutes ago, farfromsam said:

I have found that a single unit of intercessors works for me,  have ya looked at dropping one of them and adding a dev squad, or better yet a pred?

 

I have found Intercessors a little underwhelming. Their sticky Objective rule tends to get less valuable the higher points you play as there are more units to contest Objectives. For an extra 2 points per model you can get Sternguard who have the same stats but add Rapid Fire 1 and Devastating Wounds to their shooting attacks as well as bringing a Heavy Bolter to the party. 

[Berzul]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

I have found Intercessors a little underwhelming. Their sticky Objective rule tends to get less valuable the higher points you play as there are more units to contest Objectives. For an extra 2 points per model you can get Sternguard who have the same stats but add Rapid Fire 1 and Devastating Wounds to their shooting attacks as well as bringing a Heavy Bolter to the party. 

 

I'd probably phase the Intercerssors out for something better at the 2k list size, yes. For a 1k list, though, they are cheap enough to play their part well,  figure. But your criticism of them is pretty fair and true. I'd agree with it.

 

1 hour ago, farfromsam said:

I have found that a single unit of intercessors works for me,  have ya looked at dropping one of them and adding a dev squad, or better yet a pred?

 

It would only free 95 points. That's not much. But perhaps I could work somehting in with them.

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

2 hours ago, Berzul said:

The Bladeguard, in fact, have someone who can give them a FnP against Mortal Wounds (and its a 3+, which is amazing; specially against Tyranids

 

Lazarus does not confer his save to his unit. It's only himself

The Spiritshield Helm: This model has the Feel No Pain 3+ ability against Psychic Attacks and mortal wounds.

Emphasis mine, he only adds fight on death on a 4+

So you could get the points right there.

[Berzul]

Oh I have clearly misread the model. I guess there is far less use in having him there, then. I'd still be swapping him for another leader for the unit, though. I feel like the squad needs something to buff it up a bit.

 

I'm thinking a Bladeguard Lieutenant, for Lethal Hits. For the points freed by removing Lazarus, plus those already free from the get go, I could add a Primaris Lieutenant with Artificier Armor, with the Bladeguard weapons set. That way those 24 hits from the Bladeguard could actually do some damage against high T enemies. Which are plentiful in my regular matches.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Berzul

[Karhedron]

I am a big fan of the Judiciar in Bladeguard Veteran squads. Fights First is a really strong rule with a unit with plenty of high quality attacks. As well as still fighting first of charged, they can even heroically intervene and Fight First. That means if you keep 2CPs handy, you can create a pretty big zone where your enemy will fear to tread.

 

Alternatively, a Lt with Sword and Shield is a decent option as it adds Lethal Hits. That mitigates the S5 as an 6s to hit will auto-wound.

[Berzul]

(The discussion seems to have shifted dramatically, but I am very thankful for the insights given by everyone)

 

My issue with the Judiciar is that... I hate the model for it! Hahahaha! Seriously, I really, really, REALLY dislike it. But I get what you are saying about what he brings to the squad.

 

Still, for nothing but aesthetics, I think I'll go with the Lt., as he looks quite awesome, and also, Lethal Hits on those 24 attacks that the squad dishes out in melee, sounds pretty good.

[Karhedron]

36 minutes ago, Berzul said:

My issue with the Judiciar is that... I hate the model for it! Hahahaha! Seriously, I really, really, REALLY dislike it. But I get what you are saying about what he brings to the squad.

 

I hear you!  To be fair, the main bit that bothers me is the derpy head and that is easily replaced. I did mine with a Wolf skull helm (I am sure you can guess which Chapter).

 

 

For Dark Angels, just replace the head with a robed one and it will probably look much better.

 

[Berzul]

Yeah, that helmet is absolutely horrendous. I'll see about getting another head on the guy.

[FarFromSam]

I was thinking about this thread today and feel the following:

 

DWCS has access to lower quantity/ better AV weapons.  Can be specialized further with a chaplain who improves the to wound.

 

BGV more attacks, that struggle...(whiff) against T10+ but are strong vs infantry.  Can be specialized further with a Judiciar who stops units from charging them. (Mostly)

 

DWCS = AV

BGV = Anti infantry

 

I wouldn't say DWCS are "good" AV,  but, they seem to be much better than BGV.  

 

Defensively things get muddled and very interesting.   Would I charge 5 DWCS w/ Chaplain into 6 BGV w/ Judy?  No.  Would I charge if the characters are removed?  All day. The merits of 10th's deeper pool of Toughness are evident.  It's interesting seeing Terminators wound BGV on 2s, BGVs wound Termis on 4s, etc, etc.  

[FarFromSam]

Also, I like the judiciar model! Even his head!  (But what's going on with his gimpy sword arm?)

Edited July 28, 2023 by farfromsam

[Barakiel]

Yeah, the Swordarm with his missing shoulder pad also gave me some issues, even when the pose was initially really cool.

 

So meet Justiciar Morded the Repent-Blade also known as Belakors demise. ;)

 

[Berzul]

4 hours ago, Barakiel said:

Yeah, the Swordarm with his missing shoulder pad also gave me some issues, even when the pose was initially really cool.

 

So meet Justiciar Morded the Repent-Blade also known as Belakors demise. ;)

 

 

What kit did you get the arm from??

[Barakiel]

Black Templar Upgrade Sprue. It also contains the banner.

[Berzul]

8 hours ago, Barakiel said:

Black Templar Upgrade Sprue. It also contains the banner.

 

Do you think the model would look weird with a firstborn arm and sword?

 

Like, an arm from a Company Veterans box, or something similar.

 

Same for the head. Would a robed helmet from a Company Veteran's kit look to small on a Judiciar model?